Tier 14 Progression

90 Pandaren Monk
0
Regardless of the points, look at the time of the kill, Paragon killed him over 90 minutes before Method. Not a lot of time, but it is still 90 minutes.
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90 Worgen Druid
4810
12/11/2012 07:56 PMPosted by Frankfu
Regardless of the points, look at the time of the kill, Paragon killed him over 90 minutes before Method. Not a lot of time, but it is still 90 minutes.


Paragon has yet to kill the same boss that Method killed.

Method has yet to kill the same boss that Paragon killed.

Everyone has their own opinion of who "won"? They both won, method won, paragon won, they're all legitimate opinions imo.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6685
gonna bookmark this thread, I love these mud flinging contests, butthurt all around from both sides, it's great

oh yeah, and Paragon didn't switch to 10 man because it was easier, regardless of your idiotic opinion, they switched because they couldn't get 25 people that all spoke Finnish and cared enough, it's a Finnish guild with a Finnish culture, they wanted to preserve that, they get props for that
I guarantee you the top raiders in the world don't care about 25v10 man, it's all the mud throwing peons here at the bottom that make a big deal about it
Edited by Pandahmonium on 12/12/2012 12:54 AM PST
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
From a page view perspective 10s are less interesting for one very simple reason, they are a forgone conclusion. Right now there is really only one guild in the world raiding 10 mans the way the top 25 man guilds are. Paragon clearly deserves respect for being one of if not the best guild in the world but there isn't any drama in the 10 man race but there isn't a race.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
12/11/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Frankfu
And you say that you respect Dream Paragon yet you say the only reason they switched to 10 man was because they didn't feel they were good enough? I certainly don't believe it, what guild on earth mergers with another guild to do content that requires fewer players? It just doesn't line up.


That's literally what they said in their statement.

"During the beta it became obvious that the current roster will not cut it in MoP unless we get couple of more quality recruits. So far we haven't been able to get the roster we needed and have decided it's better to continue as a 10man guild from now on than to hope for something miraculous to happen in the upcoming weeks. This also leaves time for our players to find a new guild before MoP if they so desire."

12/11/2012 04:35 PMPosted by Crooklyn
not really sure who paragon was even competing with


They where competing with basically no one. There is not a single 10 man guild even remotely close to the level of Dream Paragon (hell, the second 10 man kill was a 25 man guild who dropped down!).

12/11/2012 07:56 PMPosted by Frankfu
Regardless of the points, look at the time of the kill, Paragon killed him over 90 minutes before Method. Not a lot of time, but it is still 90 minutes.


Yes, but again, on 10 man. The level of care is close to absolute 0. Again, if you can't compare the 2 races (and you can't) and only 1 race is an actual race while the other is simply a slaughter its not too tough to see why manaflask wrote the article they did.

12/12/2012 12:53 AMPosted by Pandahmonium
oh yeah, and Paragon didn't switch to 10 man because it was easier, regardless of your idiotic opinion, they switched because they couldn't get 25 people that all spoke Finnish and cared enough, it's a Finnish guild with a Finnish culture, they wanted to preserve that, they get props for that


I never said that it was easier. I said they couldn't field a 25 man roster they felt could compete for the world firsts(which if you read their article is EXACTLY the reason they dropped). You where the one who went and connected that to it being easier, not any of us.
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
In terms of racials. The difference is overstated. Between pandarens (300 primary stat) and worgen (600 crit rating and movement speed CD) the only class left is paladins. Tanks should have stoneform / use maces to tanks anyways (best tank racial imo). Healadins... what would they get if they were horde - really? Rets... what would they get if they were horde - realy.

In terms of 10v25. They are literally different races. The mobs have different amounts of health, different amounts of mobs spawn, the number of people you have to deal with them is different, then number of debuffs changes, the radial distance to the boss is different based on, the amount of damage boss abilities do per player is different, the amount of raidwalls available is different...
When it comes to top guilds racing for a first kill, all it takes is a slight relative under/overtuning and the award goes a different direction (paragon vs method, 10 vs 25). Because of that, you can't know if it is "skill" or "tuning". Both guilds are quite dedicated and skilled though, that is unquestionable.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
In terms of racials. The difference is overstated. Between pandarens (300 primary stat) and worgen (600 crit rating and movement speed CD) the only class left is paladins. Tanks should have stoneform / use maces to tanks anyways (best tank racial imo). Healadins... what would they get if they were horde - really? Rets... what would they get if they were horde - realy.


Troll racial is better for rogues than panda (and orc is better if you use Axes).
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90 Troll Shaman
17270
12/12/2012 07:44 AMPosted by Ninjablaze
Troll racial is better for rogues than panda (and orc is better if you use Axes).
I know. But the difference is much less than Human vs Troll. Or Human vs Orc.
The point is that the gap has gotten smaller than it ever has been in the history of wow.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14560
12/12/2012 06:01 AMPosted by Fierydemise
From a page view perspective 10s are less interesting for one very simple reason, they are a forgone conclusion. Right now there is really only one guild in the world raiding 10 mans the way the top 25 man guilds are. Paragon clearly deserves respect for being one of if not the best guild in the world but there isn't any drama in the 10 man race but there isn't a race.


This.

I have respect for 25 man guilds and 10 man guilds as long as they're not demanding one is better than the other. Both are real formats.

However there was absolutely nobody really competing against Paragon in the 10's bracket at all.
If there were more 10's pushing as hard as they were I'm fairly certain there'd be a different tone to the 10 versus 25 race - but there wasn't and isn't.
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100 Troll Druid
15185
12/11/2012 03:51 PMPosted by Frankfu
The community is wrong in discounting 10 mans.
You can't actually be wrong about an opinion.
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90 Human Warrior
13190
Disclaimer:
I am not trying to start any crap
I am not trying to say anyone is better or worse than anyone else


Best part of the OP.
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
Disclaimer:
I am not trying to start any crap
I am not trying to say anyone is better or worse than anyone else


Best part of the OP.


Just because they weren't intended doesn't mean they weren't going to happen.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6685
You guys are all cracking me up. I love reading in almost every post:

"yo dawg I respect your 10 man I really do"
"10 man isn't a real race people don't respect that because 25 man is harder to get that many people together and stuff has more health and there's more of it and there's more competition so 25 man gets more respect and it's the real format"

I don't really care either way honestly, I just like raiding, but I love reading these threads. You people are so quick to insult 10 mans and the people who do them, and it's amusing to see people try to mask their insults by saying "man I totally respect 10 mans". Then they go off on why they actually don't respect 10 mans by saying why everyone else doesn't.
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100 Dwarf Rogue
19870
This will not be a perfect analogy, but I liken choosing between 10 and 25 man guilds for "king" of a tier to choosing the "king" of a race year between the winners of NASCAR and Formula 1. Winning the NASCAR Sprint Series is an amazing feat, just as winning the F1 World Championship is, but at the end of the day, it's a different track with different cars and different racers. The fact that manaflask has gone with a 25 man to be their king is probably more of a reflection of their own (and their readers') interest -- certainly they don't think 10 man is a meaningless or even lesser format for competition, they're just coming from a tradition of reporting on 25 man raiding.

Of course, my analogy is somewhat loaded, because let's be serious, 25 man is the Formula 1 of the raiding world.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I don't really care either way honestly, I just like raiding, but I love reading these threads. You people are so quick to insult 10 mans and the people who do them, and it's amusing to see people try to mask their insults by saying "man I totally respect 10 mans". Then they go off on why they actually don't respect 10 mans by saying why everyone else doesn't.


Respecting 10 mans does not actually mean "Equate 10-mans with 25-mans".
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90 Pandaren Monk
11455
The only people who care about world 1st are the ones who like watching it.

25-mans are generally accepted to be the more fun ones to watch.

Therefor, people naturally tend to exclude 10-man.
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90 Troll Druid
11615
I don't really care either way honestly, I just like raiding, but I love reading these threads. You people are so quick to insult 10 mans and the people who do them, and it's amusing to see people try to mask their insults by saying "man I totally respect 10 mans". Then they go off on why they actually don't respect 10 mans by saying why everyone else doesn't.


Well, if Paragon wasn't a 10 man guild, then we wouldn't be having this debate.

So I just blame Paragon for doing this to the forums.
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90 Orc Warrior
13520

From my own personal experience, within my guild, we largely recruit from 10 mans nowdays, and the rationale is the same: I want to play on the largest, most epic stage there is. 10 man simply is not that. And within the guild, as the saying goes "10 man progression isn't progression at all".

It's not respect and it isn't cared for. But that's a personal thing.

Allowing 10 man to "get the respect" that some folks think it observes requires changing peoples minds about it, which at this point simply isn't going to happen. And frankly, that's probably the good thing. Because WoW could very much one day be like Rift, where the most elite guild in the world is a small group of retarded trolls who conduct themselves lin a way consistent with everything bad about the internet.


No offense but if it was true that 10 man progression is not progression at all, you wouldn't be able to recruit from 10 mans like you say you do. At the end of the day the fights are the same, you just have to wait longer for 25 people to learn the mechanics.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
At the end of the day the fights are the same, you just have to wait longer for 25 people to learn the mechanics.


No, the fights are intended to have the same mechanics as a base, with adjustment for 10-mans in either numbers or mechanics. The fights don't actually end up being "the same".

That trend has been true through Nefarian, Conclave/Magmaw, Baleroc, Ragnaros, Hagara/Warmaster, Spine, Stone Guards, Will and even Spirit Kings - which in theory is the most mechanic-oriented fight of the tier.

But to point it out, that person is talking about other people in the guild taking the attitude that "10man progression isn't progression at all" and that he personally doesn't care for that attitude.
Edited by Slashlove on 12/12/2012 2:07 PM PST
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