Topic
Atonement is completely overpowered & boring
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Well yes, on heroic we used 4 healers including a second disc priest (lol random burst gibs in p1) and had a lot of downtime at the end of add phases - we'd kill all the adds but one then delay killing the last one until Grand Empress was about to come out so people could get mana / cooldowns / trap debuff gone etc. There's no way you should expect to see those numbers when you're 4 healing a 10man, although it should be possible to be close if one of the other healers isn't also a disc priest.
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Those HPS numbers are already achievable. But with that much damage going out, the majority of your casts are going to be spent on healing, not Atonement. If you're able to pull similar HPS and DPS numbers on a Heroic Shek'zeer kill, the kudos to you, but that really seems unlikely. |
Probably, but that's an issue with SS, not Atonement. |
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Sure, but even using offensive penance (with 4 piece) and holy fire on cooldown is something like 30000 dps.
The real "meter killer" for healing on heroic is spending a lot of time single targeting the tanks during add phase, plus the downtime afterwards. (On the other hand, it's really good for tank damage... check out our brewmaster peaking at one million dps at the start of the first add phase.) If we get enough dps to push phase 3 with only one add phase and only use one disc priest I think I could get close. |
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Edited by Amabella on 12/15/12 1:46 PM (PST)
I agree that atonement by itself isn't ridiculous on non-damage increase fights, yes. There do seem to be an awful lot of damage increase fights this tier though. Edit: Now what is ridiculous... is holy priest aoe damage. |
holy priest single target damage is also ridiculous. |
It's worse than shadow and doesn't do any passive healing at the same time, so I don't care that much. At that point you're turning into a shadow priest who gave up dps to get divine hymn and lightwell. It might have a few niche uses (kind of want to try it on Tsulong) but I doubt we're going to suddenly see an influx of holy priests single target dpsing in raids. |
I'm guessing it depends on how tight the enrage timer is for whatever you want to do. |
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Between disc and holy for dps, my disc sim shows 37,661 and holy is at 45,094. The loss of atonement for a meager 20% increase in damage? And that damage goes to !@#$ when you move or have a fight with more than 2-3 targets compared to shadow.
Pretty much I've been using a prepot and starting fights in chastise for all that damage up front, but it's not viable to use it during the real bulk of the fight unless you outgear the content. The two fights that sprang up as good holy dps fights were tsulong and wind lord, but the more critical burn phase is after all the adds are dead for wind lord (read: shadow is better) and the tsulong night phases can be really healer taxing so dpsing is probably putting more strain on the other healers (and you have to move to reset the debuff which again favors shadow). And lol at that log you linked Amabelle. Hell, I can spam my spells like a lunatic for a 3 minute fight and pull those kind of numbers, and my gear isn't as good. Still, good show. |
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-95whll9hq8mkcd8h/sum/healingDone/?s=3502&e=3721 Solo healing a normal mode encounter while severely out-gearing it has about as much relevance as looking at HPS output for unrealistic healing rotations in a vacuum. By this I mean it has absolutely zero relevance and it's largely useless information. In the linked log only 20.8% of your healing was from atonement. The bulk of it was from other sources, with DA, SS and PoH being the largest contributors. Pointing at atonement as the reason Discipline is over the top right now is a completely baseless claim and your log is just further evidence of this fact (and no, I'm not saying you claimed atonement itself was the problem, the OP did though). In case you're curious. 41% of your damage output in the log came during heroism and 53% of it overall was from Penance alone, which had a 6s CD in this situation due to the 4pc. For overall damage you output ~45% of the damage by each tank. Once heroism was down you only managed to pull ~37% of the tank DPS. Yes, the DPS output by Discipline Priests is certainly a problem. It does about one third to one half of the DPS of a single tank. Yes, I am sure "theoretically" the DPS output of atonement spam could be much higher. And in just about every situation where these spells could realistically be spammed there is no relevant damage, the encounter is being over-healed (in which case it's sub-optimal), there is a gimmick and/or the group/raid out-gears the content. I would also like to add there is a whole lot of focus on sustained HPS output here and not much on burst HPS output. There is no way in hell atonement is going to compare to other methodologies in the latter of the two categories. Your other alternatives are going to completely smoke atonement when it comes to burst HPS. I would argue burst HPS is the significantly more important metric in many of the encounters. This is why vacuum math is largely useless information. You can go ahead and look at what happens when you spam Smite or PoH for 3 minutes straight. This information isn't typically useful because it assumes the damage pattern remains constant and how and when that throughput is distributed is irrelevant. This just doesn't happen in the game, ever. |
Didn't ya know dude? Everything everywhere is op once you outgear it. At least according to the people with an average item level of 500 across their entire raid. |
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Atonement combined with everything else makes disc overpowered.
- More damage than any healer - Able to make potentially threatening AOEs into nearly no damage (spirit shell), hell even just divine aegis stacking will be able to do that. |
Between disc and holy for dps, my disc sim shows 37,661 and holy is at 45,094. The loss of atonement for a meager 20% increase in damage? And that damage goes to !@#$ when you move or have a fight with more than 2-3 targets compared to shadow. Something is wrong with your sim. Both disc and holy dps are significantly higher than your numbers indicate. And lol at that log you linked Amabelle. Hell, I can spam my spells like a lunatic for a 3 minute fight and pull those kind of numbers, and my gear isn't as good. Still, good show. It was a semi-troll, I admit :) I'd like to see a log of someone in worse gear than me doing more total (damage + healing) on a non-damage buff fight though. It's doable as I definitely didn't play perfectly, but not that easy - mostly the damage part as 110k hps should be achievable by just smashing PoH alternating between groups. |
It would also probably require a very specific gearing style that's impractical and more for epeening than anything. DOWN WITH HASTE! GIVE ME 20% CRIT OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!! |
So close :( Actually I have another belt with crit on it and int + int/crit gems! Going broke from all those 10g reforges. Maybe I can set up a donation fund for disc damage meter whoring. Ok actual serious statement: mastery is better when you are PoH coating for aegis (I was mastery for heroic Shek'zeer) but for quite a few fights I go some combination of crit + haste as I easily cap spirit shells on both groups and waste a ton of the last cast even when fully crit reforged, and I can't get enough mastery to cap the shell in two casts instead of three. /10manproblems |
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Edited by Twistedmind on 12/15/12 3:07 PM (PST)
That's what flutter said, but I ran back and checked all the coefficients and all the buffs. I think my numbers are low because I have virtually no crit or haste on my gear. Also, it doesn't include the jade enchant or lightweave, but it should still be accurate. I double checked this in game and outside of power infusion, I was pulling exactly what I theorycrafted. I was playing around with 4000ish haste last weekend and pulling much higher holy dps in the lfr's I was screwing around in. But Keiri has it right, it might be something you can do, but gearing for it is really at odds with practical gearing for healing. However in challenge modes...
The damage part might be a feat, but if I were to do a 3 minute fight like you, I'd try to squeeze in more damage with a regular shadowfiend during heroism (with my int proc and all that crap). I know for sure I can sustain the hps by mashing poh between the groups. Edit: but I'd really have to look at bucking down and getting the 4 piece bonus for the more effective evangelism builders. |
Really? I cap mine in 2 casts (per group) with my level of mastery.(50% raid buffed) I need to get that mastery/crit cloak from spirit kings and the mastery/crit robe from feng... It dropped this past week and our mages snapped them up. Bastards. 17% crit chance raid buffed is not enough. I want 25% raid buffed. My goal is to get down to 2.5 sec casts on PoH and greater heal and stack crit/mastery/spirit. Almost there with this crappy 1k haste that WONT GO AWAY. Oh well... I've noticed tank healing is getting more and more powerful the more crit i get, so that's always nice. I laugh so hard at our monk when the tank he's healing's health yoyos while i'm bombing 100k+ crit heals on my tank and watching their health never go below 75%.Something hits hard? Abuse gheal+inner focus and profit. |
I agree with pretty much everything you said, but one thing I'd like to add is that the window of "damage that can be healed by atonement + mending + shielding the tank" is much larger than most people think. Also, @ the last bit of your post, I think that variable damage patterns actually helps disc (as long as there is some warning before they happen). |
Dependent on how many pets are in the raid, of course. Healing the hunter's wolf 4 times when the tank's at 60%= fail. |
