Frost Bomb vs. Dispel Magic & PvP Changes

80 Human Priest
3225
Overall last night was probably the best pvp of the expac. People were not getting imploded, and warriors seem reasonable now. Some more fixes are needed but the game has improved. Even random BGs seem more fun now with the healing nerfs.

Did some arena last night, and I was also talking to a friend of mine who played a mage to ask his opinion on something I noticed and he pretty much agreed.

Played 7 arena matches against teams that had a mage. I was playing MW because i like the spec, and trying to get better at it. (It sucks but it's still fun) Anyway....

We won all the matches except one, but that doesn't matter really because we were doing low mmr games. The biggest thing I did notice was I was able to prevent every single deep/bomb attempt.

The game we did lose they had to train me, and set up deep/bomb on me (the healer/dispeller) to get it to land. Putting it on any dps pretty much wouldn't work even if they started with a blanket silence.

My friend was telling me he was having the exact same problem playing at 2300 MMR. The only way to land bomb was to train the healer every match. Landing any type of kill attempt on the dps is impossible, and now healers save trinket to prevent the burst bomb attempt.

He felt it wasn't fair that teams now can plan their entire strategy around preventing bomb, knowing the mage can't do any significant pressure without it.

Thoughts? Opinions?
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yes the game is fair now that mages can't frost bomb or deep freeze someone..we will just be in the back now hardcasting 15k frostbolts, or kiting with our 4k ice lances.

op you are correct.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7785
yes the game is fair now that mages can't frost bomb or deep freeze someone..we will just be in the back now hardcasting 15k frostbolts, or kiting with our 4k ice lances.

op you are correct.


welcome to wow. The rest of the classes have to hard cast 15K damage items all the time. Locks need to hardcast immolate, then incerinate (sp), then chaos bolt. The only way to get a choas bolt off is to fear someone and if you dont train the healer fear is cleansed or totem.

Sorry but this is nothing new, like i said all the other classes welcome you to wow, it only took 8 years
Edited by Osiriss on 12/13/2012 8:49 AM PST
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yes the game is fair now that mages can't frost bomb or deep freeze someone..we will just be in the back now hardcasting 15k frostbolts, or kiting with our 4k ice lances.

op you are correct.


welcome to wow. The rest of the classes have to hard cast 15K damage items all the time. Locks need to hardcast immolate, then incerinate (sp), then chaos bolt. The only way to get a choas bolt off is to fear someone and if you dont train the healer fear is cleansed or totem.

Sorry but this is nothing new, like i said all the other classes welcome you to wow, it only took 8 years


locks can run while doing everything, not to mention have a abilty to were you cannot be interupted for 8 seconds ( cast chaos bolt with havoc)..also have shadowburn that hits like a truck which is instant cast and so is conflagarate.

you cannot compare mages to warlocks as warlocks have everything.
Edited by Raw on 12/13/2012 9:01 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
6925
yes the game is fair now that mages can't frost bomb or deep freeze someone..we will just be in the back now hardcasting 15k frostbolts, or kiting with our 4k ice lances.

op you are correct.


Its a l2p issue. You're 1500, so im pretty sure you make 100 mistakes every 10 seconds.
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
7785


welcome to wow. The rest of the classes have to hard cast 15K damage items all the time. Locks need to hardcast immolate, then incerinate (sp), then chaos bolt. The only way to get a choas bolt off is to fear someone and if you dont train the healer fear is cleansed or totem.

Sorry but this is nothing new, like i said all the other classes welcome you to wow, it only took 8 years


locks can run while doing everything, not to mention have a abilty to were you cannot be interupted for 8 seconds ( cast chaos bolt with havoc)..also have shadowburn that hits like a truck which is instant cast and so is conflagarate.

you cannot compare mages to warlocks as warlocks have everything.


Locks cant immolate or chaos bolt or incerinate (main damage spell) while running. The only spells can cast are Conflag, shadowburn and fel fire. Congflag is decen, but limited use and fel fire is high mana low damage, and shadowburn is an execute lower than 20% hp and requires an additional resource.

Havoc doesnt stop interruptions... what you mean is dark bargain and we can be cc'd and takes a talent.

you are right its hard to compare the two classes, but mostly because it took 8 years to bring the mage to the lock level
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
12/13/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Osiriss
you are right its hard to compare the two classes, but mostly because it took 8 years to bring the mage to the lock level


Take a look at high end arena representation (where people know how to utilize their class to the fullest extent) throughout the entire history of the game and you will eat those words.

Hint, look at warlock representation compared to mage representation.

For every single season.
Edited by Kaikou on 12/13/2012 3:57 PM PST
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100 Human Mage
17425


locks can run while doing everything, not to mention have a abilty to were you cannot be interupted for 8 seconds ( cast chaos bolt with havoc)..also have shadowburn that hits like a truck which is instant cast and so is conflagarate.

you cannot compare mages to warlocks as warlocks have everything.


Locks cant immolate or chaos bolt or incerinate (main damage spell) while running. The only spells can cast are Conflag, shadowburn and fel fire. Congflag is decen, but limited use and fel fire is high mana low damage, and shadowburn is an execute lower than 20% hp and requires an additional resource.

Havoc doesnt stop interruptions... what you mean is dark bargain and we can be cc'd and takes a talent.

you are right its hard to compare the two classes, but mostly because it took 8 years to bring the mage to the lock level


Kil'Jaedens Cunning would like a word with you

and no I don't think he meant dark bargain. More likely Undending Resolve.
Edited by Zildjian on 12/13/2012 3:58 PM PST
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
I don't think any class in arena has ever had so many ways to have their burst countered. The bomb can be interrupted, failing that, dispelled. We have to commit our damage cooldowns 6 full seconds before the Bomb explodes in order to actually do a potentially game-ending burst sequence, and in that entire time period we can be silenced, stunned, CC'd.

Healers AND their teammates must be unable to control their character for about 8 full seconds just to get off our main nuke. And that nuke won't do significant damage unless the target is in a nova or deep freeze, so realistically we have to set up this situation at least twice - once for trinket, which they have about 8 seconds warning to pop. If they're decent, they can stagger trinkets to make sure some sort of silence or CC goes on the Mage.

It is now prohibitively difficult for Mages to do significant damage against competent opponents in arenas and RBGs. Unless there's some alternative spec/talent arrangement that is currently unknown to Mages, our high end viability is gone at least until 5.2.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
I'd also like to point out that people keep making the mistake of saying "It's fine, good Mages will be able to differentiate themselves from bad Mages now!". That's wholely inaccurate - if a bomb goes off in a deep after the full countdown, with trinket popped and the target taking the necessary amount of damage in the preceeding 6 seconds for it to actually be a realistic kill attempt, the Mage's opponents made a series of significant mistakes. It has no bearing on the Mage's abilities, it's just a barometer for incompetent opponents.
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100 Human Mage
17425
We have to commit our damage cooldowns 6 full seconds before the Bomb explodes in order to actually do a potentially game-ending burst sequence


Nah, you don't have to use trinket before applying the Frost Bomb for it to benefit (if that's what you did in fact mean)

You can just use it before the explosion and it will still benefit from the additional spellpower.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17375


locks can run while doing everything, not to mention have a abilty to were you cannot be interupted for 8 seconds ( cast chaos bolt with havoc)..also have shadowburn that hits like a truck which is instant cast and so is conflagarate.

you cannot compare mages to warlocks as warlocks have everything.


Locks cant immolate or chaos bolt or incerinate (main damage spell) while running. The only spells can cast are Conflag, shadowburn and fel fire. Congflag is decen, but limited use and fel fire is high mana low damage, and shadowburn is an execute lower than 20% hp and requires an additional resource.

Havoc doesnt stop interruptions... what you mean is dark bargain and we can be cc'd and takes a talent.

you are right its hard to compare the two classes, but mostly because it took 8 years to bring the mage to the lock level


Ummm he means unending resolve. 8 secs immune to silence and interupts and a damage reduction. You can cc through it however and the animation is extremely telltale. It is not a talent. It is baseline.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
12/13/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Zildjian
We have to commit our damage cooldowns 6 full seconds before the Bomb explodes in order to actually do a potentially game-ending burst sequence


Nah, you don't have to use trinket before applying the Frost Bomb for it to benefit (if that's what you did in fact mean)

You can just use it before the explosion and it will still benefit from the additional spellpower.

I understand the mechanics of Frost Bomb (spell power check is during detonation, not application), but if you spend a round or two of procs without PvP trinket + incanter's ward up, you do not do significant enough damage to get a kill against full Mal opponents. The early damage trinket usage is to boost the damage of the lances and FFBs preceeding the bomb, not just the bomb itself.
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80 Human Priest
3225
12/13/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Asdfasdfad
I'd also like to point out that people keep making the mistake of saying "It's fine, good Mages will be able to differentiate themselves from bad Mages now!". That's wholely inaccurate - if a bomb goes off in a deep after the full countdown, with trinket popped and the target taking the necessary amount of damage in the preceeding 6 seconds for it to actually be a realistic kill attempt, the Mage's opponents made a series of significant mistakes. It has no bearing on the Mage's abilities, it's just a barometer for incompetent opponents.


This is pretty much the only post in this thread worthy of replying to. The rest are people so blinded by mage hate that they do not see the issue lined out in the original post that I made.

What you described is 100% true. As it stands the only way to land a bomb against even remotely competent opponents is to rush the healer.

You will never land a deep/bomb on a dps in 3v3 unless the healer on that team has downz.

While I understand what Blizzard was trying to do, they went from it was far to easy to blow someone up in deep/bomb/glyph. Now it's near impossible to land deep/bomb unless the mage is playing with a rogue and tries that burst during smoke bomb.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
I really don't get why blizzard thought mage design this expansion was good enough for beta, let alone release.

My favorite class of 9 years has been ruined :(
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idk, healing still seems to strong...3 dps vs. 2 heals, 1 holding the flag, i was peeling interupting the pally on my well geared Demo lock and using cds on the disc priest FC...like seriously for at least 3-4 mins and could not get a kill...the pally was seriously unkillable...dumb dumb dumb
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100 Dwarf Hunter
17560
Why not use some of your control and play second banana to the other dps in our team and help them set up their burst? You do know the kill does not have to come because your burst overpowered the opponent it could also come from your other teammate/s
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
12/14/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Prieto
Why not use some of your control and play second banana to the other dps in our team and help them set up their burst? You do know the kill does not have to come because your burst overpowered the opponent it could also come from your other teammate/s

Because we don't have significant battlefield control anymore except inside of deep freezes, which must be preceeded by a bomb. We lost Improved Cone of Cold, and Shattered Barrier, and snares that are more potent than melee snares, and two melee specs have crazy mobility (feral and arms). Our kiting ability is so neutered, that it is unreasonable for us to do much beyond PoM ring and Imp CS deeps.

It's okay, though, because the "you must cast, and prevent dispel, and set up shatters, but you aren't going to be given the tools to do so" model is being denied: Nether Tempest is the new hotness. Never cast, AoE pressure, random instant cast burst. Hugely gimmicky but it feels like it might be working: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7416261682
Edited by Asdfasdfad on 12/14/2012 10:42 AM PST
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100 Gnome Mage
10750
Our kiting ability is so neutered, that it is unreasonable for us to do much beyond PoM ring...


...and that's next on the chopping block if the blue posts are to be believed (someone linked the discussion on MMO a few days back i.e. they aren't happy with all the instant AoE CC's in the game).

Truth be told, I think everyone is at a bit of a loss trying to understand what exactly our roles are supposed to be in this brave new PvP world they have envisioned for us. If they want us as the kiters we were for the last 7 years, then fine, nuke our damage ("to the ground, baby") but give us the tools to kite and survive (e.g. revert the nerf to Barrier, give us back slows on CoC, etc.). If we're supposed to conform to that tired cliche "glass cannon", again fine, but supply us with the tools/means to be able to punish opposing team's melee who will be stuck to us like like proverbial flies on doo doo.

Note, the above is based on my own experience (which is admittedly moreso outside of arena and rbgs given I gave up on that aspect mostly in S3-4 i.e. when Blizz was all about FoTM), and watching what much better mages than myself (e.g. Venruki, Jahmilli, etc.) have to put up with in their arena matches (I was watching Venruki the other night and truth be told, not sure how he hasn't snapped given how hard opposing teams tunnel him from the get go and having to make do with an ever-diminishing mage toolset).
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