Killing Machine issues

90 Night Elf Druid
8095
12/14/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Agravayne
My admittedly limited experience is that you just have to take what it gives you. If you hold back waiting for Obliterate all the time, you loose more than you gain.


This was also the advice of Preach, who is a very good DK and has held some of the top parses on WoL.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
Doesn't it depend on how much haste you have?
If you have low haste (sub-50%, maybe higher) then you will hit gaps in your rotation.

Isn't it better to take that time you wasted doing nothing and instead move those runes that you shotgunned into Oblit crits instead?

So instead of sitting and doing 0 abilites for sometimes ~5 seconds every now and then, maybe take 0.1 of those seconds every swing and put them into a guaranteed KM oblit. If you have gaps in your rotation that means you have a finite number of runes (The "ignore KM procs" mentality assumes you have infinite rp/runes to burn) so you might as well put as many of your "limited" runes into km oblits.

It also might depend on the fight... Fights with a lot of magic damage give you enough RP that waiting at any point is a waste.
Edited by Zionic on 12/14/2012 12:22 PM PST
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
10/18/2012 07:15 PMPosted by Euliat
What I'm not sure about is the opportunity cost you're talking about.


You understand part of it, being proc overwrites. A proc overwrite essentially is as if the first proc never triggered, so no additional damage is gained from it. Even a KM-FS would be better than that. But, again, you knew that already.

Assuming you have KM already and use a 2H, KM has a 36% chance to proc per swing. The probability that you'd overwrite that proc by 'n' swings looks something like this:

P(1) = 0.36
P(2) = 0.59
P(3) = 0.74
P(4) = 0.83
P(5) = 0.89
P(n) = 1 - 0.64^n

After even 1 swing without a proc, there's a pretty high probability (59%) that your proc will be overwritten on the 2nd swing. But that's mainly just to say don't wait an eternity on KM procs because you'll just overwrite them, which, again, you knew, but that's the math behind it.

The other part comes from resources. This is much harder to quantify. Your runes constantly regenerate. If you have two of the same pair up at the same time, you're wasting resources because one could be regenerating.

For 2H Frost, runes = more OB's very directly. Of course, they also mean more FS's, which means more OB's, but that effect diminishes rather rapidly. So, while you're waiting on your swing to land, you might not waste anything (depending on rune CD's), or you could waste 1/8th - 1/4th of 1, 2, or 3 runes just by sitting there doing nothing. Not a big deal on a short-scale setting, but let's scale that out to a 5m fight. It'll start to add up really quickly, especially since you can use every one of your runes on OB.

300s fight with a 2.4s swing speed = 45 KM's. Let's say you stall 1s on average on every other KM. As a reminder, just because you stalled doesn't mean that you used it on OB. That's 22.5s, which is probably about 3 rune speed's worth, so it could be worth up to 9 runes (3 * 3 = 9). That comes out to be roughly 6-ish OB's, 3-ish Rime-HB's, and 6-ish FS's that you lost. Take that damage and divide it by 300s, and you're probably looking at at least a 2.5k DPS loss there. Most of that can probably be made up by the fact that you crit with OB slightly more often, but there will still be a loss.

Admittedly, that's not a gigantic loss, but you're putting in extra effort and not really gaining anything. Might as well not put in any effort and get the full power.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8535
If you really want to improve your dps I have a tip, don't spam the ever loving **** out of your attack buttons but instead learn to time them with the global cooldown. I know this seems asinine but it gives you a little extra time to think about what to hit next.

I started to do this back in wrath and my dps increased by about 50% due to a much cleaner rotation (yes it can make that much of a difference)
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
12/14/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Agravayne
My admittedly limited experience is that you just have to take what it gives you. If you hold back waiting for Obliterate all the time, you loose more than you gain.


This is only half true.

If you've got a rune pair off cd (i.e. both fully charged and ready to go), then no, you should not wait for KM. You lose more by not having the runes refreshing for the next oblit.

However, if you don't have any runes that are up in a pair (i.e. no more than 1 of any type rune up and ready to go), you should wait for KM until waiting is going to cap one, i.e. put you in the first position.

caps=ready, normal = recharging or fully depleted

If you have:
Dd FF Uu ... you should oblit asap. Get those frost recharging.

If you have:
Dd Ff Uu ... you should wait for KM. If one of them is about to fill and put you with a pair like FF, though, that's when you should go ahead and blow the oblit without km.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Not really seeing it as holding me back. The more crits regardless of it's FS or Obliterate is one more crit improving my dps. Call me crazy but a Crit is a Crit no matter how you get it.


Because obviously 200-300k obliterates aren't that much different than 40k-70k frost strikes.


Everyone point and laugh at the hyperbole. Cause obviously if you're doing 300k oblits, you're only doing 40k fs.

Hah. Hahaha. ahahahahahahahaha

Moron.

Edit: What Kusari quoted.
Edited by Ghatok on 12/15/2012 8:07 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
If you have:
Dd Ff Uu ... you should wait for KM. If one of them is about to fill and put you with a pair like FF, though, that's when you should go ahead and blow the oblit without km.

You should never "wait" for a KM unless we're talking about keeping yourself inside a GCD during a swing, in which case you're not waiting since you're actively attacking anyway.

Apart from rune cooldowns you also get runes from frost strikes. So waiting on rune recharge like you described is essentially the same as waiting on fully re-charged runes. Either way you're [potentially] wasting runes.

You should never stop and do nothing on purpose.
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90 Orc Death Knight
0
And just in case you missed it op.....

Being that far below hit and exp cap is hurting your dps far worse than KM on a FS.


He's in blood gear...I assume that's not his dps set.


That is dps gear well a mix Of as im assuming he appears to be gearing up :P
and grabbing what Rng gives him
Edited by Ordeál on 12/15/2012 4:40 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
If you have:
Dd Ff Uu ... you should wait for KM. If one of them is about to fill and put you with a pair like FF, though, that's when you should go ahead and blow the oblit without km.

You should never "wait" for a KM unless we're talking about keeping yourself inside a GCD during a swing, in which case you're not waiting since you're actively attacking anyway.

Apart from rune cooldowns you also get runes from frost strikes. So waiting on rune recharge like you described is essentially the same as waiting on fully re-charged runes. Either way you're [potentially] wasting runes.

You should never stop and do nothing on purpose.


I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong. Current haste levels leave FDK sitting doing nothing for considerable amounts of time. This provides the opportunity to manage that time effectively for better returns.

There's actually an entire thread about how to make the best use of this over on EJ atm. Highly recommend checking it out.

To put it extremely simply: You're a whole lot better off sitting on 1 of each rune waiting for a KM proc *NOW* than burning them and waiting 6 seconds for a new pair of runes while an active KM wastes away later.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
here is said thread:
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t131138-advanced_frost_priority_tactics/

and here is detail on the most important part:

How long is it worth waiting?
There are two cases where waiting can be a damage gain.
With enough runes to obliterate, but no KM:
Assuming you have not wasted any resources, there is no penalty for waiting. You lose absolutely nothing, no runic overcapping, no T5 procs wasted, no rimes overridden, no km wasted, and no runes stop regening. The ~60k dmg boost from waiting is a 100% gain. Wait as long as you can without wasted resources.

With KM, but not enough runes to obliterate:
Every second you wait, there is a chance that KM is overridden. So how long is it worth waiting before the override renders waiting not worth it?
KM has 6 ppm, and fully raid buffed most dks have around 50% haste. That's 9 actual ppm, or .15 pps. Therefore, every 6.666 seconds, on average, you will get one KM proc. If FS gets an x boost of damage from KM, obliterate gets about 2x. Therefore, with average luck, waiting the full 6.666 seconds makes you break even, whereas waiting less becomes a bigger gain the less time you wait, assuming you get KM to actually proc. This is also assuming you continue to not allow the other resources to overcap.
Edited by Lailala on 12/16/2012 4:55 AM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
I can guarantee you that's nowhere close to how long you should wait.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
3330
i can kind of feel when km is gunna proc, its all about rhythm and not spamming keys for me
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
12/16/2012 12:44 PMPosted by Euliat
I can guarantee you that's nowhere close to how long you should wait.


You can guarantee whatever you like, you can't, however, refute the mathematical analysis by saying "nuh-uh" and leaving it at that.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
12/16/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Lailala
I can guarantee you that's nowhere close to how long you should wait.


You can guarantee whatever you like, you can't, however, refute the mathematical analysis by saying "nuh-uh" and leaving it at that.


I wonder if Euliat ever gets tired of mathing out the truth and being proven right. These threads come up a few times a month.

We should just sticky of one of the previous threads.

Lailala, go search the forums. At least 2 other posts have Euliat's math.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
12/16/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Ghatok


You can guarantee whatever you like, you can't, however, refute the mathematical analysis by saying "nuh-uh" and leaving it at that.


I wonder if Euliat ever gets tired of mathing out the truth and being proven right. These threads come up a few times a month.

We should just sticky of one of the previous threads.

Lailala, go search the forums. At least 2 other posts have Euliat's math.


I can only find 2 posts by him since october that relate to waiting on KM's.

One is him reading this exact same thing the last time I posted it and not understanding it, then never posting again when he realized he was wrong.

That would be:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7198960778#14

And then there's this:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6893700854#13

Where he came up with it being about a 2.5k dps loss BEFORE figuring the gains from more oblit crits. Further, that's based on just stalling for a second and praying that KM procs, and going if it doesn't, rather than actually organizing your waiting around, you know, actually making use of it.

And, of course, that has nothing to do with what to do when km+rp is up but runes are not.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
12/16/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Lailala
You can guarantee whatever you like, you can't, however, refute the mathematical analysis by saying "nuh-uh" and leaving it at that.


The reason you can't find them is because the Beta forums are gone, where I ran multiple different ability priorities through my sim to replicate this behavior to no apparent gain, or depending on the stall time, to a loss.

It's the same reason why they aren't finding any success with SimulationCraft. It's not because the sim is wrong--it's doing exactly what you tell it to do, and it's doing it better than you ever will.

There is an opportunity cost to waiting. Reread the EJ thread and look at how many times he has to say something along the lines of "without wasting resources." It is not as simple as it sounds, because the time constraints are tight.

Using this spreadsheet as my base: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgEwKT9377f3dHFCTFR4UEFJdXpOQno3cFVNRngyUnc

You use a rune every 1.77s on average in i509 gear. Since this is for 2H Frost, we'll double that since Obliterate takes 2 runes, so 3.54s. This means if you wait more than 3.54s, you're wasting resources and thus violating his recommendation already. Thus, it is not 6.67s maximum wait time, but half as long because time is a finite resource in a raid setting (the boss dies after "x" duration, which is relatively fixed, within a few seconds).

I also see that 83% of your GCDs are filled with offensive, damaging abilities, which means in that 3.54s timespan, you really only have about 0.60s of buffer room or else you will be wasting time that you could have spent on a damaging ability (i.e. resources). Coincidentally enough (or not; your call), my sim found that waiting right around 0.50s is the break-even point, after which longer periods become a loss.

With a 2.68s swing timer, a 0.60s window is very small. The probability that you will not have already swung is merely 22%, or 1 in 5, which means the probability of getting a KM proc to occur in that window is nearly 1 in 10. That is, approximately twice every minute you will get KM to proc in that window. If you are so fortunate that your next offensive ability is OB (but only 30% are), you would see a gain here, so that comes out to be approximately once per 90s. Otherwise, you're pushing out an offensive ability, or you would have had a KM proc without having to delay anyway (meaning your stalling did you no good). So, that's a staggering 90k / 90s, or +1k DPS, or less than 1% gain. For the fights that you are doing and the quantity you are doing, RNG will wash this out easily.

You use an offensive, damaging ability about every 1.2s, which means waiting any longer is pushing some ability out. Again, time is a relatively fixed and finite resource.

A KM-FS does as much damage as an N-OB, so it is better to burn KM on FS than overwrite KM accidentally by waiting.

So, in short, I absolutely guarantee you that if you even think about waiting up to 6.67s for KM-OB, you are absolutely going to hemorrhage your DPS. If you don't believe me, then go walk up to a training dummy and try it. You will be better off by totally ignoring KM.

I have yet to see any defensible support for stalling for KM being a gain, and I have yet to see any logs to back those statements up as well. While the lack of logs should not be considered proof itself, it should make you wonder if stalling is actually increasing your DPS, seeing as how it isn't showing up in logs (nor sims).
Edited by Euliat on 12/16/2012 8:40 PM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Geez, where to even start with this.

First things first:

You know a lot of people in full 509's right now? Particularly ones that are posting on this forum?

Didn't think so. The reason waiting has become currently effective is that the lack of haste supports it. We're going to have downtime, we need to optimize when and why it occurs. Of course, jumping 30-40 ilvls over most people, and even 15 or so over people like me that have had nice luck with drops, is going to change the results here. That's kind of the point.

Secondly, your sims are nearly... no, screw that. Your sims are flat out worthless. You can't just tell it to delay oblit for a second or 2 with no ability to tell it why or when to do so and assume that's some kind of valid representation of how waiting for procs actually works out.

And, seeing how that's the second time in 2 posts on the subject I've seen you do so, I'm honestly not sure why I'm bothering at this point.

Simcraft can't do what we're talking about here. It's that simple. You can't get it to sim effectively because the program you're trying to get to test it literally cannot do what you're asking it to.

Lastly, you're just making assumptions all over the place that make absolutely no sense whatsoever.

An average rate that you spend your runes used to calculate the value of... changing the rate at which you spend runes? What?

Your concern needs to be with regeneration, not expenditure. As long as something is regenerating, you're not costing yourself by waiting.

The reason he has to constantly repeat "without wasting resources" is because that's the entire point.. The instant you let something overcap, you defeat the entire purpose of your organized rotation, this is DK 101.

The one spot you've got any kind of leg to stand on is opportunity cost from not frost striking for another rune *yet*, and the possible proc from it.

I'd be more than happy to see someone figure out a way to quantify that, but to my knowledge nobody has been able to. It gets extremely hard to figure when you realize that frost strike isn't going away just because you delayed it a few seconds.

Anyway, you can't look at a situation where we constantly have stuff like 15 seconds of gcd lock followed by 5 seconds of downtime, figure out the average downtime per second, and consider yourself to have valued the time correctly.

You're literally flat out ignoring the reason this works, which is that we're not sitting on constant intervals of 1-2 seconds like your math assumes.

Our haste levels are leaving us with nasty gaps, waiting serves to normalize them and minimize the impact.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
just a thought: tell your simcraft to delay oblit by 1 global less than your rune regen rate only when dd fF uU and rp <32

want to make a bet on the results? (hint: it's an increase in your oblit crit rate with absolutely nothing lost, which has a pretty predictable impact on your dps)

edit: although now that I think about it, simcraft isn't even going to do that right a ton of the time cuz of the timing of reaching that scenario
Edited by Lailala on 12/17/2012 3:53 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
Average boss fight is 5-10 minutes.
Hit a dummy for that amount of time, log your dps.

Reset your meter, do the same thing again, this time use a different rotation style. Try waiting 1 GCD for KM procs, try sitting on recharging runes, try not waiting at all... Do whatever you want.

Spoiler alert:
Your DPS will be the same everytime. Frequently, the longer you wait, your dps will go slightly down.

Plus, the rotation is harder to manage the more you wait or the harder you focus on waiting. There's less focus involved if you just burn runes/rp and yet you get the same (or higher) dps.

Your 'gut feeling' is wrong on this one. I really wish putting a lot of effort into handling KM procs would yield higher DPS. I really think putting the extra effort into your rotation should reward you.

However blizzard says no. Doing more work doesn't benefit you in this case.

just a thought: tell your simcraft to delay oblit by 1 global less than your rune regen rate only when dd fF uU and rp <32

Are we changing our story now?
Implying you're going to be dry on your next GCD; that is, you can Oblit once, and you will have a gap following that, is not the same as "Always wait on Dd Ff Uu".
Edited by Zionic on 12/17/2012 5:07 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
12620

If you have:
Dd Ff Uu ... you should wait for KM. If one of them is about to fill and put you with a pair like FF, though, that's when you should go ahead and blow the oblit without km.


hi
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