Killing Machine issues

55 Goblin Death Knight
4705
12/17/2012 03:17 PMPosted by Zionic
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Share some please.
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90 Human Death Knight
13075
I thought Rime just let you cast HB so it's already added in and you just added it in twice.
ANYWAY. Rime is the clear winner here. Don't wait for KM procs, you're wasting Rime!!
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90 Human Death Knight
7700
I thought Rime just let you cast HB so it's already added in and you just added it in twice.
ANYWAY. Rime is the clear winner here. Don't wait for KM procs, you're wasting Rime!!


win :D
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
15% less downtime is not significant? Is this a joke?


Re-expressing it relatively doesn't make it any different. 15% less downtime relatively still leaves you with a decent amount of downtime.

12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
You state that you're using a stall time variable, i.e. not being able to get it to check on the fly.


The stall time was the upper limit, not a blind wait time. The sim is evaluating rune conditions and other timers during that wait period, so it is handling it in real-time. If the next swing doesn't fall within that stall time, it will just use OB, so it's not like it's sitting around for "x" seconds every OB.

12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
Now, if you've got all these super precise and perfectly executed sims, feel free to post them. I don't believe for a second that you did hundreds of hours of work on this and didn't save any results whatsoever, only posted them on the beta forum and deleted anything esle.


You wouldn't be able to run my sim anyway, but you can view the Frost source here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fleQISp7sBdLri7fKTAs8fAqUB4Z1JR1RFXsL2K5ExM/edit

If you want to see what kind of control I have over the priority, then search "function Priority()"

The KM stalling isn't in place because I found it to be a loss (or equal with a very small stall time), but it involves tacking on conditions to mostly every OB and FS in that priority. This makes my conditionals look very messy and even harder to follow, so I removed them in the later revisions.

For OB, you would add something to the effect of "if NextMainAutoOp > (CurrentTime + StallTime)" to have it determine if a swing is coming up before it would naturally hit OB, where StallTime is pre-defined. As long as StallTime > PlayerMainSwingSpeed, this will control swing timing when you have the runes to OB because it will block the usage of OB until the instant after the swing lands (when NextMainAutoOp changes), and it will do this with no latency whatsoever.

That doesn't guard from wasting runes in that wait period, so I tried it with and without another condition tacked on to OB: "&& (NextMainAutoOp > NextRuneOp)" where NextRuneOp is when the sim knows a rune will be recharged. Coded, that would seem backwards, but autoattacks are evaluated before specials in my sim. Thus, if t = 684, and that is the time of an autoattack, by the time it reaches the "Priority()" function, the next autoattack will be registered at (684 + PlayerMainSwingSpeed).

So, that should cover all the bases for OB usage. If you can OB, if you don't have KM, if your autoattack lands within "x" seconds, and if you can stall "x" duration without wasting runes, then stall. Do you agree?

For FS, you have to block it from being used if KM is up and you would be able to use OB before your next swing (or else you risk wasting KM; optionally, can check against StallTime as well): "if (HasKM == 1) && (NextMainAutoOp > NextRuneOp)"

But just because a rune will be recharged by then doesn't mean you can actually OB, so I had to add in more conditions checking that if one of the following (or more) were true: && ((CurrentBlood >= 1) || (CurrentFrost >= 1) || (CurrentUnholy >= 1)), i.e. at least 1 recharged rune exists already.

That should also complete the FS logic. If you have KM, and if you can OB before your next swing, then stall. Do you also agree?

So, then, does that sound like a correct implementation of proper KM management to you?

If it does, then it doesn't matter that the raw data is lost with the Beta forums. If it doesn't, then you wouldn't believe the raw data anyway because you have not believed anything thus far.

12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
Uh, logic and, you know, actual support for my claims rather than "I checked this one time and I did it perfectly I promise therefore I'm right and you're wrong, screw evidence."


From what I gather, your only support is that EJ quote and the fact that KM OB > KM FS in terms of damage dealt (which is the basis of the EJ thread), under the guise of logic. You've also linked some top parse logs under the assumption that they are actually timing KM and that that solely is the reason why it is a top parse. You've then gone from there to assume that you can just place your ability usage anywhere in a given window because you aren't wasting rune regeneration by waiting as long as your other pairs are recharging, the latter half of which is true (but only via natural regeneration).

You have ignored the rough calculation from the spreadsheet data, because that's apparently not support, so I would expect nothing less from you with my sim.

12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
Firstly, no, you're assuming a person will make mistakes.


This is beyond a doubt the only 1 assumption you can actually make with confidence, which is why sims are not a perfect representation of the potential of a player and never will be.

12/17/2012 02:10 PMPosted by Lailala
You still create the same amount of RP over the same time period, therefore the same amount of frost strikes and procs. You need to prove that using an ability at say, second 5 instead of second 8 definitively creates more runes-- it doesn't, unless you overcap in the process.


No, you don't, because you can be pushing abilities out of the fixed fight window by stalling. The more you stall, the more you're compacting all of your actions into a smaller window, which is ultimately constrained by the GCD. The GCD isn't going to give--throughput will. Thus, you risk decreasing RP / rune (because of lost RP) generation.
Edited by Euliat on 12/18/2012 2:55 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
0
12/17/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Jäckßäuer
popcorn.gif


Share some please.


hmm where is OP in all this :( i think the poor bastard's head has exploded R.I.P Herpes.....rofl

Malterzers anyone o.O
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90 Worgen Death Knight
5570
I rarely if ever hold a KM proc, its not worth as much as you might think. If you let it go more than a gcd you will lose dps because you are not putting those runes on cd therefore unable to either get RE procs or get more RP.

Bottom line you want less down time keep your runes on cd except the unholy you might be gaming. The faster they go down the faster they and RP go back up again.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Ugh, post is so long I'm going to have to be picky and copypasta as I go so as not to pass character limit. Here we go:

The stall time was the upper limit, not a blind wait time. The sim is evaluating rune conditions and other timers during that wait period, so it is handling it in real-time. If the next swing doesn't fall within that stall time, it will just use OB, so it's not like it's sitting around for "x" seconds every OB.


This, and the whole first half of your post, basically, have 1 giant problem:

You're basing it around swing timers, and not allowing for the mistake that's less important, yet working around a level of precision to avoid it that's far from humanly possible. I.E. you're nerfing the benefits. I'll get more in depth in a second.

So, that should cover all the bases for OB usage. If you can OB, if you don't have KM, if your autoattack lands within "x" seconds, and if you can stall "x" duration without wasting runes, then stall. Do you agree?

...

That should also complete the FS logic. If you have KM, and if you can OB before your next swing, then stall. Do you also agree?

So, then, does that sound like a correct implementation of proper KM management to you?

...

From what I gather, your only support is that EJ quote and the fact that KM OB > KM FS in terms of damage dealt (which is the basis of the EJ thread), under the guise of logic


Here's what you're missing, and didn't catch the last time we had this discussion, either:

KM's effect on Obliterate is about 2x KM's effect on Frost strike. This means if you overwrite a KM where you would have gotten a FS, you've only lost a half of a KM's full value.

If you FS with a KM and wouldn't have overwritten by waiting, you've also lost half of a KM's full value.

The instant you tilt the ratio in favor of oblitting without an overwrite, you've gone above breakeven.

This is also why the time it takes to regen a rune is important... it's literally the full duration of a rune regeneration where you're going to, on average, break even. Any shorter than that, and you're ahead.

No, you don't, because you can be pushing abilities out of the fixed fight window by stalling. The more you stall, the more you're compacting all of your actions into a smaller window, which is ultimately constrained by the GCD. The GCD isn't going to give--throughput will. Thus, you risk decreasing RP / rune (because of lost RP) generation.


GCD's are a resource. That's a given. This is a method of optimizing the usage of said resource. The key to all of this, as you yourself have pointed out, is not overcapping any resources.

As long as you don't overcap the others, that means in and of itself that you have not overcapped gcd's, btw.
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I fail to see how all this talk of KM procs in top parses being used on obliterate or frost strike demonstrates anything other than good RNG. I don't care enough to completely pick apart the parses, but you can't just look at a few quick numbers and instantly assume their play style.

I suppose you could also just log on to their realm and ask them.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Oh boy, this again.

Someone specifically asked what the oblit crit rates were like on the top parses, I answered.
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90 Orc Death Knight
8835
Why do we use so many words to discuss numbers?
Just get some logs.

I'm not going to read another wall of text...
>.>
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
12/19/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Lailala
You're basing it around swing timers, and not allowing for the mistake that's less important, yet working around a level of precision to avoid it that's far from humanly possible. I.E. you're nerfing the benefits. I'll get more in depth in a second.


It's working at a level of precision that's not humanly possible, which would amplify the gain, if any, not reduce it. Human error certainly won't boost it.

No resources are getting wasted. That's priority #1 according to the EJ thread. Priority #2 is getting as many OB crits as possible. Stalling does that. The absence of latency takes care of queued FS's eating KM's in my sim.

Removing the interaction with swing timers and making it 100% resource-driven isn't going to do any better. If stalling for 0.50s for the swing without losing any resources is break-even, how is effectively stalling for more than that possibly going to come out to a gain? Are you somehow hoping that the second swing will somehow proc KM and cause this gain (which, the probability of wasting resources by then is significantly higher)?

KM's effect on Obliterate is about 2x KM's effect on Frost strike. This means if you overwrite a KM where you would have gotten a FS, you've only lost a half of a KM's full value.

If you FS with a KM and wouldn't have overwritten by waiting, you've also lost half of a KM's full value.


If you overwrite KM, you've lost an entire KM's worth. KM's value doesn't change depending on the scenario. It's always worth N*(2 - (1 + C)) damage, where N is the normal damage of OB (or FS if for some reason it is higher, e.g. DW) and C is your crit rate as a decimal.

In scenario 1 (overwrite KM), if N = 110k and C = 0.15, then you've lost 93.5k damage.

In scenario 2 (use KM-FS), under the same conditions, you've lost half of 93.5k damage, because you recouped the other half by using KM-FS.

You can't hold a double standard here.

12/19/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Lailala
This is also why the time it takes to regen a rune is important... it's literally the full duration of a rune regeneration where you're going to, on average, break even. Any shorter than that, and you're ahead.


Saying the quote from EJ over again doesn't somehow make it right. It isn't just about the pure damage difference between a KM OB and a KM FS and assuming you could get a KM OB instead. Time is a very important factor. You may not be wasting natural rune regeneration by waiting, but you are wasting RP->rune generation by waiting because you're throwing abilities out of the fight window that generate those resources through the ultimate constraint by the GCD.

Without wasting resources, you simply can't change the KM-FS:KM-OB ratio by much because of the GCD and swing timer. You already use FS 60% more often than you use OB. That's stacked horribly against you.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
12/19/2012 11:38 PMPosted by Euliat
You're basing it around swing timers, and not allowing for the mistake that's less important, yet working around a level of precision to avoid it that's far from humanly possible. I.E. you're nerfing the benefits. I'll get more in depth in a second.


It's working at a level of precision that's not humanly possible, which would amplify the gain, if any, not reduce it. Human error certainly won't boost it.

No resources are getting wasted. That's priority #1 according to the EJ thread. Priority #2 is getting as many OB crits as possible. Stalling does that. The absence of latency takes care of queued FS's eating KM's in my sim.

Removing the interaction with swing timers and making it 100% resource-driven isn't going to do any better. If stalling for 0.50s for the swing without losing any resources is break-even, how is effectively stalling for more than that possibly going to come out to a gain? Are you somehow hoping that the second swing will somehow proc KM and cause this gain (which, the probability of wasting resources by then is significantly higher)?


You're not allowing it to stall to the full extent. You're only getting the benefit if there was *no* chance of it overwriting...

This isn't complicated, please stop trying to convince yourself.

KM's effect on Obliterate is about 2x KM's effect on Frost strike. This means if you overwrite a KM where you would have gotten a FS, you've only lost a half of a KM's full value.

If you FS with a KM and wouldn't have overwritten by waiting, you've also lost half of a KM's full value.


If you overwrite KM, you've lost an entire KM's worth. KM's value doesn't change depending on the scenario. It's always worth N*(2 - (1 + C)) damage, where N is the normal damage of OB (or FS if for some reason it is higher, e.g. DW) and C is your crit rate as a decimal.

In scenario 1 (overwrite KM), if N = 110k and C = 0.15, then you've lost 93.5k damage.

In scenario 2 (use KM-FS), under the same conditions, you've lost half of 93.5k damage, because you recouped the other half by using KM-FS.

You can't hold a double standard here.


Let's say KM optimal value (i.e. used on an oblit) is X.

We know that a KM used on frost strike is about X/2.

If you were going to frost strike with a KM, that KM is worth X/2.

If you overwrite it instead, you've lost X/2.

If you wait and it doesn't overwrite, you've gained X/2.

As long as the second happens half of the time, you've broken even. Any better ratio than that and you're ahead.

12/19/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Lailala
This is also why the time it takes to regen a rune is important... it's literally the full duration of a rune regeneration where you're going to, on average, break even. Any shorter than that, and you're ahead.


Saying the quote from EJ over again doesn't somehow make it right. It isn't just about the pure damage difference between a KM OB and a KM FS and assuming you could get a KM OB instead.


I'm having to say it over and over again because you just don't seem to be able to put 2 and 2 together.

Look at what I just explained about the value of the KM.

Now, the final sentence:

"As long as the second happens half of the time, you've broken even. Any better ratio than that and you're ahead."

And what does that mean? That means that with km proccing at about the same rate as runes regenerate, you're going to, on average, break even if you have to wait an entire rune regeneration. Any less than that, and you're going to average a gain.

Time is a very important factor. You may not be wasting natural rune regeneration by waiting, but you are wasting RP->rune generation by waiting because you're throwing abilities out of the fight window that generate those resources through the ultimate constraint by the GCD.


Maybe this is the real big problem for you-- you're refusing to see that currently waiting does not push things out of the window if done properly, it simply shifts them around inside of it.

Without wasting resources, you simply can't change the KM-FS:KM-OB ratio by much because of the GCD and swing timer. You already use FS 60% more often than you use OB. That's stacked horribly against you.


We're not hoping to gain a 100% oblit crit rate and nothing but natural frost strike crit rate. We're trying to get the most out of it when we can.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
I'll even put it xzibit style for you.

You don't lose a km oblit by not using km oblit when you weren't going to get a km oblit.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Lailala must be a troll. Euliat keeps providing long, insightful posts with math and facts to back it all.

All Lailala keeps doing is being insulting and demeaning.

Moving on.
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Lailala must be a troll. Euliat keeps providing long, insightful posts with math and facts to back it all.

All Lailala keeps doing is being insulting and demeaning.

Moving on.


If that's what you got from this... it's a good thing you like LFR so much.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Lailala must be a troll. Euliat keeps providing long, insightful posts with math and facts to back it all.

All Lailala keeps doing is being insulting and demeaning.

Moving on.


If that's what you got from this... it's a good thing you like LFR so much.


Thanks for the confirmation. The day I start to measure my worth by how many internet dragons I've killed is the day I realize how pathetic my real life has become.

Hope yours gets better for you at some point =[
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
> runs LFR 5 times per week
> accuses other people of having no life
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Big difference between no life and bad life. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I happen to have a life, and it's actually quite good. Awesome wife, great kids, amazing job, sweet extended family.

Do I like lfr? Sure do. I prefer lfr to late-night tv. It's not hard to squeeze in 2.5hrs of gametime a week, I'm pretty good at time-management. Matter of fact, it's because of this I don't do heroics anymore, or normals all that often. My RL is just so much better than WoW. WoW is a nice hobby, something I do in downtime. It's fun =]

However as to you, the more I see you post, the more I feel for you =[
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
12905
INTERNET FIIIIIIIIIIIGHT
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90 Human Death Knight
12620
Big difference between no life and bad life. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I happen to have a life, and it's actually quite good. Awesome wife, great kids, amazing job, sweet extended family.

Do I like lfr? Sure do. I prefer lfr to late-night tv. It's not hard to squeeze in 2.5hrs of gametime a week, I'm pretty good at time-management. Matter of fact, it's because of this I don't do heroics anymore, or normals all that often. My RL is just so much better than WoW. WoW is a nice hobby, something I do in downtime. It's fun =]

However as to you, the more I see you post, the more I feel for you =[


so you're here to tell us how trolling and insulting people is bad by trolling and insulting people

kind of like how you insult people's rl because they're actually good at the game while you do every faction asap, did around a hundred dungeons early in the expansion, and run lfr endlessly and aimlessly
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