Frostbomb nerf / unbalanced Classes.

90 Human Mage
6200
I honestly believe the frost bomb nerf was quite hard. It completely changes frost mages rotation as well as uptimes. By the time you need to deep freeze your enemy so you can set up a kill, hes already dispelled or your deepfreeze proc is already off. Frost bomb has become from being the main attack/talent in frost mages to being a damage dot.

The possibilities for a frost bomb to hit hard before the nerf were high, now, the possibilities for a frost bomb to hit hard are on the ground. This supports my argument that the frost bomb nerf was radical and not the most convenient way to nerf it. On the other hand it also, it affects highly the PvE performance, since frost spec can be used in multi mob fights.

I do think the burst in pvp was insane. You could die in a global trying to hit ice block. The first impression that I got from MoP pvp was that any class can almost global another class if they pop'ed all their cooldowns and attacks. Now that impression has changed, Warriors cannot longer do that, mages cannot longer do that, rogues cannot do that. These changes have benefited survivability for most of the players. On the other hand, in my opinion there is still some classes that need to be nerfed. Why so, because there is still classes that can global other classes if they pop all their cooldowns.

Lets go over a warlock for example, they have a shield up to 200k, they can heal a lot, they have demon form which increases double their armor, they can have the same amount of health or even more than a tank if specc'ed. They still hit chaos bolts for 200k and they have instant fears, stuns, silences, demon leap, aoe fears, aoe stuns and portal.

Now lets go over a hunter, they can cast almost everything while running, as well as most of their abilities dont trigger a global cooldown plus INSANE burst. Enough said.

I dont even want to talk about ret pallys and feral druids burst atm. Frost mages were at par with them, but now they can kill somebody faster and easier than a frost mage.

Now having said all this, im not specifically complaning about the mage nerf, im trying to encourage blizzard to actually make a more balanced game just as they have been trying taking in consideration some other classes including the ones I mentioned as well as finding a better and less radical way to nerf mages. If blizz succeds to do this, no class will be able to global another class opposite to the start of the season when they all could. Either non, or all...

I would appreciate much if you write down your reflected thoughts and can contribute or support my ideas.
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1 Draenei Hunter
0
12/13/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Reekerv
Why so, because there is still classes that can global other classes if they pop all their cooldowns.
99% of globaling was Demo Arms and Frost and all 3 have been fixed. You got it easiest as you can still global, it just takes more than 3 brain cells now.
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90 Human Warrior
10675
On the one hand, I stopped pvping because it is vastly too annoying. This is someone who has pvp'd from april of '05 until this expansion.

On the other hand, frost mage control is moronically high to also allow them to do anywhere near decent sustained dps nevermind having moronically high burst. If you burn a 3 minute cd, then sure, 60% to 0% in a deep freeze is fine. But if you're using only a 30 or 45 second cd (i.e. deep freeze itself) then, no, it's HORRIBLE design, and needs to be nerfed pretty damned hard.

And before you say anything, removing the snare immunity from avatar was pretty much the nuclear weapon nerf to arms. I knew it was going to happen, which is why I haven't even tried to pvp this expansion - no use in getting used to something I was 100% positive they were going to take away.
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90 Human Mage
6200
@ telandriol
I have to disagree with you, perhaps you have never been global'ed by a feral or ret or hunter. Another class that cannot global nowadays is boomkin.
Edited by Reekerv on 12/13/2012 2:20 PM PST
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87 Blood Elf Rogue
6320
12/13/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Talandirlol
Why so, because there is still classes that can global other classes if they pop all their cooldowns.
99% of globaling was Demo Arms and Frost and all 3 have been fixed. You got it easiest as you can still global, it just takes more than 3 brain cells now.


Pretty much this.

The core of the problem hasn't been addressed (as per usual with Blizzard).

Now you have to wait 5-6 seconds before someone gets nuked.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12735
I don't think anyone on this forum actually knows what the term "global" means.

If you were getting globaled by a mage, you are absolutely, horrifyingly bad and you should stop playing immediately.
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90 Troll Hunter
10090

Now lets go over a hunter, they can cast almost everything while running, as well as most of their abilities dont trigger a global cooldown plus INSANE burst. Enough said.
List them.
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90 Human Mage
7450
12/13/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Iampshade
99% of globaling was Demo Arms and Frost and all 3 have been fixed. You got it easiest as you can still global, it just takes more than 3 brain cells now.


Pretty much this.

The core of the problem hasn't been addressed (as per usual with Blizzard).

Now you have to wait 5-6 seconds before someone gets nuked.


You silly kids should know what you are talking about before you respond. Nobody is defening the absurd damage but its not just wait 5-6 seconds then get the same amount of dmg out. You can essentially only burst every 30 seconds now and thats when a healer has no trinket and you swap to him with cross cc or you happen to juke every interupt in the game and time your cc perfect for bomb not to get dispelled. Name 1 class in the game that can have their main burst ability dispelled and interupted
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100 Draenei Hunter
13940

Now lets go over a hunter, they can cast almost everything while running, as well as most of their abilities dont trigger a global cooldown plus INSANE burst. Enough said.
List them.


I would also like to see this list. Aside from our defensive CDs: Feign, Deterrence, Disengage, Master's Call, Pet Utility, and one Offensive CD that doesn't invoke the GCD, but has the same bug that's persisted since Wrath, everything else is on the GCD.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
12485
12/13/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Shízz
Name 1 class in the game that can have their main burst ability dispelled and interupted
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
[quote="74122441718"][quote]Name 1 class in the game that can have their main burst ability dispelled and interupted

That's not really the main issue. Here's how Mages did high (obviously TOO high) burst damage pre-hotfix:

Frost Bomb + Deep Freeze with Incanter's Ward up
Frozen Orb
Damage trinket + icy veins and Fire Blast
Alter Time, spend all of your procs, proc alter time, imp CS, spend all your procs again

That was the absolute most damage we could possibly put out, and it was pretty much a guaranteed kill. Put more simply, the only setup is that you can cast a 1.5 second spell, you have at least 1 dot on you or you're being targeted/cleaved, and you're ready to explode things. The vast majority of the damage came within the first 3 GCDs, so trinketing partway through didn't always save you - and the Mage didn't even really have to commit all that many cooldowns while guaranteeing a lot of burst. It was too powerful for all of these reasons and many more.

Post-nerf, here's our ideal burst sequence:

Get full procs, frost bomb, imp CS
Blow icy veins + trinket + alter time, spend all your procs, alter time, deep freeze, spend all your procs, frost bomb explodes in the deep freeze

The problem with this sequence is that we're the only class in the game that has our burst tied to a spell with a cast time that does no damage for a significant period of time - but, in order to actually get a kill, we have to be doing significant damage during the 6 second countdown. This means that, unlike pre-patch, you have to blow your damage trinket and icy veins 6 full seconds before the bomb explodes, meaning that the other team has a 6 second window in which all they need to do is get a single silence, stun, interrupt on the Mage. Failing that, the healer has to use some form of a defensive out, or even just run around a corner - alter time must be spent 5-6 seconds before the bomb explodes, so you can't even chase them with it up as you'll get ported LOS for the bomb explosion.

Barring *ALL* of these defensive options not working - a guaranteed out such as Displacer Beast or PvP trinket can still be used, and again, you have 6 full seconds to figure out which of these options is appropriate before significant damage comes.

I think this level of setup is completely prohibitive to success in high rated arenas. I certainly can't think of a single time in history where this kind of setup was even proposed, let alone was successful. The numbers will show that soon enough. Try not to write off Mages complaining about this nerf as us justify the damage as it was beforehand - it was obviously terribly overpowered and we said as much. But the nerf as-is is a complete viability killer.
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90 Orc Shaman
11830
12/13/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Shízz
Name 1 class in the game that can have their main burst ability dispelled and interupted

Elemental Shaman
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90 Human Mage
6200
@ asdfasdfad
Yeah well, I agree to an extent some of the things you stated there, nevertheless if you read throughly what I wrote is that the possibility to set a burst/kill with this nerf, is almost impossible as you have described. It has to be in a perfect timing plus add the fact that to set the perfect scenario you must be free casting without any pressure on else you will never be able to make a frost bomb explode properly without wasting time while you have a gap on which you have to wait to set up a deepfreeze.

Ill prefer to get frost bomb nerfed 25-30% rather than not being able to use its full potential whenever I need it.

Mages is all about burst, mostly frost, they have to be very defensive for example in arenas, and when they see an opportunity they blow cds and burst. Frost bomb is not reliable as a form to burst but rather as a constant damage dot. We'll be relying more on icelances and frosfireprocs for kills with this nerf.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
@ asdfasdfad
Yeah well, I agree to an extent some of the things you stated there, nevertheless if you read throughly what I wrote is that the possibility to set a burst/kill with this nerf, is almost impossible as you have described. It has to be in a perfect timing plus add the fact that to set the perfect scenario you must be free casting without any pressure on else you will never be able to make a frost bomb explode properly without wasting time while you have a gap on which you have to wait to set up a deepfreeze.

Ill prefer to get frost bomb nerfed 25-30% rather than not being able to use its full potential whenever I need it.

Mages is all about burst, mostly frost, they have to be very defensive for example in arenas, and when they see an opportunity they blow cds and burst. Frost bomb is not reliable as a form to burst but rather as a constant damage dot. We'll be relying more on icelances and frosfireprocs for kills with this nerf.

Incidentally they just reduced Frost Bomb's damage by ~30% and reduced the countdown to 4 seconds, allowing us to Bomb->Deep:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415601502

We'll have to see how that plays out.
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90 Human Mage
6200
LOL this is just ridiculous now... 30 % nerfed damage, still takes 4 seconds to burst, AND still 50% reduced damage when triggered with fire blast?... ouch.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
The upside is that you can deep -> bomb, unless last iteration, which means we can still get kills as long as healer is in a CC, or if the deep is on a healer. It's not necessarily a dealbreaker, although it's totally BS we can't do this to orcs too. DF should be 5 seconds again, bomb stays at 4.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
Totally naked, it's hitting for 4055 damage for me. With 16766 spell power it hits for 47k. That just about matches up with the tooltip damage, the damage appears to be unchanged.

Looks like they only changed the debuff duration, did not change damage - if someone finds a different result please tell me.
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90 Blood Elf Hunter
5020
Oh christ, more entitled mage QQ.
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12/13/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Talandirlol
Why so, because there is still classes that can global other classes if they pop all their cooldowns.
99% of globaling was Demo Arms and Frost and all 3 have been fixed. You got it easiest as you can still global, it just takes more than 3 brain cells now.


disagree a trinket/dispel messes up our burst.
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