Don't Force Me to DPS

90 Human Priest
16395
This thread is in response to a thread on the Europe forums, since I can't post there. I would post there if I could.

Anyway, I have been a healer (specifically Disc) for the life of this character. Through ups and downs, ins and outs, nerfs and buffs, always, always Disc.

I like to have one spec per character. It gives identity to the character, and if you do everything as that spec, leveling, questing, dungeon running, pvp, raiding, you get to know the spec really well.

This character was low level when achievements came out back in Wrath, what was that, like 5 years ago or something? But it became my main.

Now take a look at that achievement score. I don't like to brag, but 16k achievement points. I think I was pretty close to 14k before MoP was even released.

And every single achievement was done as Disc. My second spec? PvP Disc. That way I can switch between PvE needs and PvP needs (and experience as much content as possible), but I'm always Disc.

Raiding, questing, leveling, dungeoning. On the few occasions where I was not able to solo something, I could always get friends to help me. Achievements that require interrupts for instance. I remember paying bodyguards to help me win the STV fishing contest, since I was on a PvP realm.

There are two occasions now that are 'forcing' me to change specs in order to experience content.

The first is not forced so much as strongly encouraged. Scenarios. It's one thing to realize that my questing and leveling and solo content experience is going to be a bit weaker and slower. I'll be harder to kill but my dps will suck. That's fine. But in a Scenario, I am basically not pulling my weight. Scenarios aren't designed with healers in mind at all. And especially if more than one healer is in the Scenario, it can take forever which is annoying to all three people.

It's one thing if I'm the only one suffering for my choice, but to force others to suffer for the fact that I'm Disc? This makes Scenarios a poor choice for me, I'm basically being rude to my group members by not being a DPS spec.

I have nothing against casting DPS spells, in fact even when I'm healing I love to spam smite and holy fire and penance and atonement heal. The act of dpsing is totally fine. It's just that unless I change specs, the amount of damage I'm expected to perform is not tuned to the amount of damage I can actually put out.

The other thing that is 'forcing' me to DPS even more? Brawler's Guild.

I stepped into it thinking I wouldn't be able to get any kills at all and I was wrong, I was able to get a few. But I've gotten to the goblin on an ogre's back (forget which boss that is) and even though I have the mechanics down perfectly, I simply cannot do enough DPS to defeat the boss before the timer is up. I have pretty high ilvl gear (haven't had a chance to do anything above LFR but I've got plenty of LFR and valor pieces) and I still don't do enough DPS.

In the thread on the Europe forums, the idea from the Blizzard employee is basically 'just spec DPS' and that by not doing so I am not utilizing the full abilities of my class so it's not Blizzard's fault if I don't use the tools given to me.

And I have to say that's a horrible decision. That's tantamount to saying "If you can't do it as a priest, just reroll a Warrior. We've given you the ability to roll Warriors any time you want so if you don't roll a Warrior you're not using the tools given to you and that's not our fault."

In all the years since I've been playing this character, there has not been one achievement or quest or other 'goal' in the game that could not be accomplished as Disc until the Brawler's Guild.

I don't know Shadow. I don't even know Holy. If I was to play a Shadow priest, it would be a new character that specs shadow at level 10 and never plays anything but shadow. I would learn the spec as I leveled up.

Getting to max level and then switching to a spec I've never played before... Don't we really have enough of that going on anyway? People aren't good at their specs and have no idea what they're doing and all that jazz. That's not to say the ability to respec is bad at all, just that ENCOURAGING people to play that way is a really bad design choice. "Level/quest as a DPS, and then just 'figure out' how to tank/heal when you get to max level." Really?

Having to make do with a limited amount of spells to heal with as you level in dungeons is one of the easiest ways to learn how to heal with a class. Learning how to survive in solo environments like difficult quests (not that there's that many of them in low level areas anymore) even when you're in your heal spec teaches you good skills that can be used later for raiding and PvP. To some extent, same could be said of all specs... The more time you spend as that spec, the better you are with that spec even in other types of content.
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Leveling doesn't teach you how to play, I'm sorry you thought that way.
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90 Human Priest
16395
So I find it extremely disappointing to basically be blocked from doing Brawler's Guild on this character, my main character, who is Disc for life and has been able to earn every other achievement in the entire lifetime of the character as Disc. I've heard that Brawler's Guild is BoA, so maybe if I level a DPS to max level and gear it up I might get a shot at doing this content and showing off my skill and getting achievements and that pet, but until I level a DPS character I'm screwed.

I do suggest a possible fix however. Scale the HP of the enemies you fight in the Brawler's Guild so a healer who is properly doing the fight can finish within the timer. Obviously this would be based on detecting the spec of the person as they enter the arena.

There would be some tuning involved to make sure bosses aren't 'easier' with one spec than another. We wouldn't want people to gimmick the fights they have trouble with by 'pretending' to be a different spec.

Once you get this 'scale based on spec' tech down, you could possibly apply it in an advanced form to Scenarios as well. That would mean you'd have to block spec swapping in scenarios and the brawler's guild (or have a way for the balance/tuning to be able to swap when your spec does).

But I definitely think that "just go DPS" is totally a horrible answer to force upon players in order to experience ANY content in the game. That's not celebrating balance and diversity. That's funneling.
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90 Human Priest
16395
12/23/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Venomheart
Leveling doesn't teach you how to play, I'm sorry you thought that way.


Not any more, though. Used to be group quests and/or doing quests at orange/red level to level faster was a hard enough challenge that you had to use most of the tricks in your arsenal (whatever class you were) in order to succeed.

Nowadays people just coast through with heirlooms and guild perks and the zone is already green or even grey to you before you even finish the storyline of the quests.

Now, leveling in dungeons by running them over and over again, as a tank or healer, can teach you how to play that class as a tank or a healer. And even if it doesn't completely teach you, you'll at least know more than nothing when you reach max level, unlike someone who leveled dps and then switched.
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But with disc if the scale the HP back even a bit, it'll be a spec with 0 possibility of dying.

so they need to scale the damage up, but then it just gets ridiculous and it's not worth the investment for blizzard to do that.

Just go dps or accept that you can't do it very far as disc.
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90 Human Priest
16395
I'm not saying that a simple scaling of healing/damage/whatever is the only possible fix.

Instead of adjusting the enemy you could always adjust the player. Make our heals heal like a dps and our damage spells damage like a dps while we're in there. That would be a silly way to do it because then you couldn't necessarily do your normal rotation or whatever.

The Brawler's guild is about understanding mechanics and being able to fight while doing mechanics. Just because someone is a healer doesn't mean they aren't capable of proving the same thing.

Perhaps having a different set of bosses that healers fight instead, with different mechanics tuned around their healing or something?

I just think that "sorry just go dps or don't do the content" is not an acceptable final answer and I expect better out of Blizzard, given their desire to make games fun.

I get that it's the current answer, and better to have it this way than to have no Brawler's Guild at all. But don't let it be the final answer.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Why have a second disc spec this expac? It's like 4 gold max to switch out glyphs/talents when you want to pvp/pve. Using tomes of the clear mind.

I just don't understand why so many people are clinging to keeping 2 of the same spec. There is no benefit besides being lazy.
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90 Pandaren Monk
16010
You're making a choice to not have a dps spec to do optional content. Content that is intended for dps classes that you want made so you can do it as a healer because you don't wish to have a dps spec.

I completely respect your choice to only roll disc, and confront the challenges in questing/leveling/dailies associated with it. I think its silly that for optional content, that requires a little extra from players anway, you want it to be made so that you don't have to make any changes in what you do.

There's absolutely 0 forcing going on, if it doesn't fit into what you enjoy doing in the game don't do it. Do a dungeon, LFR, PVP, Raid, do whatever makes you happy. Brawler's guild was made for a little extra solo content for people who're interested in that type of deal.

It sounds to me you'd prefer something like proving ground, where you do things to show off your skills at a role, or even to learn new ones. This is in the works according to blizzard and we can expect they'll keep us updated.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6660
So from what I can tell you are upset because blizzard doesn't cater to you being kind of OCD about having just one spec per character right? To twist an example from your post that would be like playing disc but demanding that blizzard make it viable to heal without using any shields because you don't like the animation and you can't go holy because you don't like specs that start with H or some such nonsense.

They implemented the two spec system mostly so people could have a dps spec to do stuff like lvl or do dailies. I'm sorry that you don't want to use your 2nd spec for a dps one but not being able to kill things as fast while not in a dps spec is just a sacrifice that you have to make.

The blue in that thread made a 100% valid point though. Not every class has access to a healer (or tank) but they all have a dps spec, how would it be fair for theim to totally lock out some classes without healer specs from some content?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12965
While I agree with the blue post, I think the point the original poster from the EU forums was trying to make was make more solo content similar to Dreamwalker and Tsulong. I, personally, like having a DPS spec. I actively flip between Elemental and Enhancement, but Enhancement being my favorite. I do dislike the fact that I do little of my main role outside of raids and dungeons. I can deal with it, seeing as how DPSing is a change of pace to keep the time for healing just that much more enjoyable, but not everyone likes to DPS or tank. Some people feel that they should exclusively heal, such as the OP here.

I can't agree with you on scenarios. The blue post was right. It gives the other two DPS the ability to be ballsy enough to just pull more. Granted, I've done very little scenarios but from my little experience, it's just as efficient, especially considering you can still throw in a little DPS. Just have the group pull more.
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90 Human Priest
12845
I can relate to how you feel about your priest. I leveled this priest up doing battlegrounds in a disc spec, and (for the most part) played disc in raids and pvp. I ran with 2 Disc specs for most of Cata. I sympathize, really I do. but ...

Don't sell yourself short. Priests are so much fun and you are missing out on at least half of what a priest can do. You said you don't know shadow and holy. Maybe it's time to learn them :) they are both really fun specs to play.

Holy dps is super strong now in chastise chakra, gearing for crit. I've seen threads of Holy priests doing more dps than shadow in raids. Look at it like a project - a chance to learn something new with the class you love. Maybe as holy, you can get those kills you want. Shadow is fun as well, and is a really strong spec in pvp. There is a lot to do playing Shadow, watching dots, procs, orbs and cd's.

I guess my point is - don't give up. I was really sad about Disc pvp since mop, too. I enjoy healing in pvp, so I went holy and looked at it as a challenge. Don't sit in the Disc box and expect someone else to let you out - you put yourself in that box; you were not forced into it.

I urge you to explore everything your priest has to offer! You might be surprised :)
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22 Gnome Warrior
80
A PvE disc build should have zero issue doing scenarios, questing or leveling. In fact, Disc is a fabulous build to have for scenarios even is all you do is spam HF, Penance and Smite. No special glyphing or talent build needed!

Brawlers Guild is a special side game. If you won't respec to a DPS build for it, then it is YOUR poor choice. It is called BRAWLERS guild, not HEAL ME TO DEATH guild.

It is tantamount to complaining that pet battles need pets. Or that fishing requires one to equip a fishing pole.

Also, how much does it cost to retalent/reglyph a Disc spec from PvE to PvP? A few gold? You don't even have to visit a trainer anymore. Not having a Disc and a Shadow spec is plain lazy. The only one locking you out of content is yourself.
Edited by Prattle on 12/24/2012 7:21 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
But in a Scenario, I am basically not pulling my weight. Scenarios aren't designed with healers in mind at all. And especially if more than one healer is in the Scenario, it can take forever which is annoying to all three people.


This is why I haven't done a single scenario on this character. They seem cool, but I'm specced tank/heals, and unfortunately "designed so you don't need a tank and healer" accidentally (?) became "designed so you don't want a tank or healer" -- anything other than an all-DPS party is just going to piss off the other party members and make the scenario take longer.

Two more places where you're forced to spec dps: twin emperors and Gluth. I enjoy battle pets and want to collect the raid pets myself, but unless Blizzard implements tri-spec, I'm going to have to buy those or find a duo partner because non-DPS specs can't burn through their self heals (and a soloer has no chance to stop them by repositioning the mobs the way they were designed to work).

(3/10 on drops so far, btw. But it's been some of the most fun I've had soloing in a long time.)

And I really don't appreciate being told that I'm "not using all the capabilities of the class" when THE GAME ITSELF is the thing preventing me from using all the capabilities of the class.

If you're going to have mandatory DPS spec content, IMPLEMENT TRI SPEC ALREADY. It's only been the most requested feature since like 5 minutes after dual spec was introduced (and that was before they added another 3-role hybrid). I don't care if it costs 10k (since I'd make that much back by farming my own Anubisath Idol anyway).
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90 Night Elf Druid
5485
12/24/2012 12:17 AMPosted by Invictae
They implemented the two spec system mostly so people could have a dps spec to do stuff like lvl or do dailies.


Two specs aren't enough for that.
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90 Human Priest
16395
12/24/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Calonderiel
Two more places where you're forced to spec dps: twin emperors and Gluth. I enjoy battle pets and want to collect the raid pets myself, but unless Blizzard implements tri-spec, I'm going to have to buy those or find a duo partner because non-DPS specs can't burn through their self heals (and a soloer has no chance to stop them by repositioning the mobs the way they were designed to work).


I was actually able to solo twin emperors, it took about 15 minutes, but in my current ilvl I did just slightly more dps than they were healing themselves for, especially once I got my back to the corner to spend less time being knocked back. Your mileage may vary.

For the classic raid pets, I at least have the option of bringing friends with me. Three level 90's or so (including myself) tend to do just fine. Can't bring friends to Brawler's Guild, though.

The only thing that's stopping me from doing Brawler's Guild is the timer. I understand why it's there, don't want to allow people to make the queues take forever, but it just isn't fair to non-DPS.

This is the first content in the entire game that has been impossible to do as a healer spec, that was another point I wanted to make. Never before has there been a "well just don't do that content then" when it comes to sticking to Disc. I've been able to do EVERYTHING as Disc before. Some achievements are harder than others, some require help from outside parties, but ALL achievements have been in the realm of 'possible' to do as Disc if you so chose.

The sudden turnaround to say that X content requires DPS spec has never happened before. There is no 'possible' if you try really hard. It simply isn't possible to do because of that timer.

Perhaps next expansion when the level cap goes to 95 or whatever.... But I have a sinking feeling that the brawler's guild will adjust based on level and/or be moved to meet the new level cap by the time that happens. It would make sense if it was.

I understand that "dps spec or don't do it" is the way Blizzard has chosen to run this. I just think that's poor game design. You're forcing players to play a certain spec in order to do content... That is counter-intuitive to the idea that players have specs in the first place so that they can choose to play how they like to play.

The analogy of "It is tantamount to complaining that pet battles need pets. Or that fishing requires one to equip a fishing pole." doesn't hold up.

This is more similar to saying that pet battles require a team of all-humanoid pets to be viable, otherwise you always lose. And fishing doesn't require fishing poles anymore, ironically. =P
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90 Human Paladin
10930
12/24/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Calonderiel
They implemented the two spec system mostly so people could have a dps spec to do stuff like lvl or do dailies.


Two specs aren't enough for that.


Tomes too expensive for you?
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90 Human Priest
16395
12/24/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Sliphe


Two specs aren't enough for that.


Tomes too expensive for you?


Spec A = Tank, Spec B = Healer, tomes aren't enough to get a DPS spec in there.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6660


Tomes too expensive for you?


Spec A = Tank, Spec B = Healer, tomes aren't enough to get a DPS spec in there.


Ummmmm you were originally complaining about wanting two disc specs, in case you weren't aware priests don't have a tank spec.

Again though if you absolutely don't want to use one of your specs for dps then you are going to have to sacrifice and that's just the way of things. Tanks and healers (usually) get MUCH faster ques and can generally get into pugs easier, dps can do dailies and other dps focused solo content better...deal with it
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12435
You could probably hit Rank 7 without much trouble in a solo-dedicated Disc spec/reforging scheme, maybe even a little further.

You'll definitely hit a brick wall by Battletron, but you should be able to get pretty far.
Edited by Nixx on 12/24/2012 11:37 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11595
Well: this is the way that I see it.
Brawler's guild is 100% optional
Not having dps spec is 100% optional
Becoming an achievement !@#$% was your choice.

So, your choice, your choice, and your choice... none of which involve anything mandatory.
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