Don't Force Me to DPS

100 Tauren Druid
19705
...says the guy from a 2-role class.

You're seriously suggesting deleting a spec and replacing it with another one *multiple times per day*? Even if they removed the progressive cost increases on respecing (I didn't see that in any patch notes...) the time cost alone would be monstrous. There aren't even any trainers in Pandaria -- you'd have to teleport through to a capital city every time and then find a way back to Pandaria (or wait for hearthstone cooldown). You can't possibly have any idea what you're talking about.

Why are you so invested in lowering QoL for a class you don't play, anyway?

Just do the dailies as resto-kitty or resto-bear, if you bite off more than you can chew. Since Int=Agi when you change forms, you do not need a second set of gear or a second spec. If you encounter a mini-boss, pop Heart of the Wild first. Sure, it won't be as fast as using a real DPS spec, as you will be missing some key spells, but it really isn't that bad. I find resto-kitty a fun change of pace from being a caster all the time.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Shaman
8125
I do scenarios in my heal spec all the time. People seem to appreciate it. I get in there with a couple of DPS and they get to be reckless, go wild, and kill kill kill while I support them. IT works nicely. As for the Brawlers Guild, well, I don't know what to tell you. Healers can be great solo for their longevity but the enrage timers means you have to be able to DPS.

I have a Resto spec. I do almost everything in Resto. My gear is optimized for Resto. I also have an Ele spec for solo stuff. Yeah, it has something like 21% hit because of all my spirit but c'est la vie!
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275

Out of curiosity, how often do you really switch between all three (or 4) specs? On my multi-role hybrids, I tend to just stay tank/heals and only go dps if I get bored and want to try something different (my Druid is Balance/Resto though, I never really got into Feral). Do you really have to respec multiple times a day between the three specs?

I mean, I agree that it would be nice to have triple specs and let us just swap on the fly, but I'm really curious as to how much you really switch.


That's just the point though. I don't ever do it. Not because I don't want to, but because it's far too much hassle.

We can debate all day about whether it's worth it or not between the gold cost and the time cost, what addons to get and the gear grind and so on. But can we stop nitpicking about the functionality and discuss the principal?

You're arguing that if I as a druid, with the roles available to my class, want to actually use the roles available to my class then I should spend the time, gold and effort to respec. Whether that effort is worth it to me or other druids is going to vary by druid. Some will be willing to, some will not. I am one of the ones who is not.

But you're basically saying is that it's perfectly reasonable for me to respec on a regular basis. Which means having only 2 specs is pointless to begin with if you or others consider it to #1) be required by the game now to fill one of these specs as a dps regardless if I as a player want to or not and #2) to not be a big deal to go respec.

Oddly enough these arguments are incredibly similar to the arguments people had back in the day before dual-spec. Some players argued that the gold required, effort of running to a trainer, setting up bars, and so on was no big deal. GC argued that specs were supposed to be meaningful and not switched around alot, thus the high punishment, gold, inconvienance, etc cost of doing so. Other players argued it wasn't fair, they'd have to grind gold (this was before the day where gold rained from the sky), they couldn't play all their roles to the fullest, etc.

GC's arguments made sense back then when your spec was actually a decision you had to make. Then arenas got introduced. Casual players wanted multiple specs. Hardcores were getting angry they had to respec 3+ times a day (raids, dailies, arenas). We're going through this again and just like back then, it doesn't make sense. (I didn't really think limiting it to 2 back then made sense either though. I was shocked returning after 2 years that there STILL wasn't tri-spec.)

The principal of the matter is simple: We have Blizzard saying that all classes are required to fill one of their roles with a DPS spec to do all the content in the game.

If a class (such as my own) has the ability to preform a non-dps role, they should provide said class an additional spec because it's not fair to that class to punish them by basically locking up one of their roles,

Now obviously, that would make dps-only classes furious that they didn't get a cookie too, so just give a class as many specs as they care to purchase, scaling the cost. It's just about convenience now. These old arguments against multi-specs don't exist anymore. Specs and roles are not meaningful, they just limit what a player can do with their class.

The game needs more gold-sinks anyway besides pets and mounts.
Edited by Jezebella on 12/27/2012 7:33 PM PST
Reply Quote

Out of curiosity, how often do you really switch between all three (or 4) specs? On my multi-role hybrids, I tend to just stay tank/heals and only go dps if I get bored and want to try something different (my Druid is Balance/Resto though, I never really got into Feral). Do you really have to respec multiple times a day between the three specs?

I mean, I agree that it would be nice to have triple specs and let us just swap on the fly, but I'm really curious as to how much you really switch.


That's just the point though. I don't ever do it. Not because I don't want to, but because it's far too much hassle.

We can debate all day about whether it's worth it or not between the gold cost and the time cost, what addons to get and the gear grind and so on. But can we stop nitpicking about the functionality and discuss the principal?

You're arguing that if I as a druid, with the roles available to my class, want to actually use the roles available to my class then I should spend the time, gold and effort to respec. Whether that effort is worth it to me or other druids is going to vary by druid. Some will be willing to, some will not. I am one of the ones who is not.

But you're basically saying is that it's perfectly reasonable for me to respec on a regular basis. Which means having only 2 specs is pointless to begin with if you or others consider it to #1) be required by the game now to fill one of these specs as a dps regardless if I as a player want to or not and #2) to not be a big deal to go respec.

Oddly enough these arguments are incredibly similar to the arguments people had back in the day before dual-spec. Some players argued that the gold required, effort of running to a trainer, setting up bars, and so on was no big deal. GC argued that specs were supposed to be meaningful and not switched around alot, thus the high punishment, gold, inconvienance, etc cost of doing so. Other players argued it wasn't fair, they'd have to grind gold (this was before the day where gold rained from the sky), they couldn't play all their roles to the fullest, etc.

GC's arguments made sense back then when your spec was actually a decision you had to make. Then arenas got introduced. Casual players wanted multiple specs. Hardcores were getting angry they had to respec 3+ times a day (raids, dailies, arenas). We're going through this again and just like back then, it doesn't make sense. (I didn't really think limiting it to 2 back then made sense either though. I was shocked returning after 2 years that there STILL wasn't tri-spec.)

The principal of the matter is simple: We have Blizzard saying that all classes are required to fill one of their roles with a DPS spec to do all the content in the game.

If a class (such as my own) has the ability to preform a non-dps role, they should provide said class an additional spec because it's not fair to that class to punish them by basically locking up one of their roles,

Now obviously, that would make dps-only classes furious that they didn't get a cookie too, so just give a class as many specs as they care to purchase, scaling the cost. It's just about convenience now. These old arguments against multi-specs don't exist anymore. Specs and roles are not meaningful, they just limit what a player can do with their class.

The game needs more gold-sinks anyway besides pets and mounts.


You didn't really answer my question, though. You said you don't switch ever, but let me rephrase the question: if you were free to swap between all three (or four, in your case) specs, how often would you do it? A dps spec and a healing spec are enough to do all content, so I want to know just how often you would be switching to your tank spec or other dps spec. Is it something that you would do multiple times a day, or would you focus on your main two specs anyway?

Not that I don't agree with you. Triple specs would be nice and wouldn't do anything that we can't already do, it would just make it more convenient. But the person I was responding to said that it was unreasonable for them to waste their time and gold switching out to their third spec multiple times a day, and that surprised me, I want to know if people would really switch between all three specs that often.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12430
This is RP nonsense. You are placing a limitation on yourself, and Blizzard has nothing to do with it. It would be like me saying 'This character only uses swords, and will never use a mace', and then complaining that the only healing gear for a given level of content was a mace.

If you are dead set on your toon only being Disc, and there is content that Disc can't do, then that is your choice. The only restriction is self-imposed, and I don't see any reason for Blizzard to redesign content around your preferences.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
People aren't happy unless they're complaining about something. Since Vanilla doing quests as heals or tank wasn't very efficient for most classes. If the game was balanced so healers could kill all the types of content then it would be so easy for dps that it would be boring! Most solo content is already too easy. If you don't want to play a damage spec, then don't. If you really want to play specs designed for group content only, then play in a group. I don't think it would be that hard to find at least one person that would like grouping up with a tank or heals to make the dailys go faster.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275

You didn't really answer my question, though. You said you don't switch ever, but let me rephrase the question: if you were free to swap between all three (or four, in your case) specs, how often would you do it? A dps spec and a healing spec are enough to do all content, so I want to know just how often you would be switching to your tank spec or other dps spec. Is it something that you would do multiple times a day, or would you focus on your main two specs anyway?

Not that I don't agree with you. Triple specs would be nice and wouldn't do anything that we can't already do, it would just make it more convenient. But the person I was responding to said that it was unreasonable for them to waste their time and gold switching out to their third spec multiple times a day, and that surprised me, I want to know if people would really switch between all three specs that often.


Didn't mean to avoid the question. But yes, if I had the option to change specs without hassle and cost I would change every single day.

If I was Queen of WoW, I would have 4 specs minimum.

In no particular order:

#1: DPS spec. If I could have one for feral and moonkin, I'd definitely use it though, but I wouldn't be too troubled without it. (It's easier to farm old raids like BWL as feral, but quicker to do dailies as moonkin because my gear is better for it).

#2: Resto-PVE spec. I use this typically in LFR for fast queue times and when my guild is short on healers for 10-mans.

#3: Resto-PVP spec. Glyphs would be different between the two. I always heal in BGs but don't usually switch my glyphs unless that's all I'm doing the entire day. Because the the buggy crap with UI elements being blocked, it can take me 10 minutes to switch glyphs. If all I'm doing is a couple, isn't worth the trouble.

#4: Tank spec. This is currently the one I don't have and wish I could have. I'd like to be able to tank in 10 man raids and dungeons. I'm exalted with all my factions now, so I do 5 man dungeons for valor points and enchanting materials. Tanks always get the bonus loot, never healers on my server, so I'd like a chance at that. My guild is short on tanks, couldn't do any raids during the holidays because our tanks were away.

I just don't see the reason for not allowing players to have as many specs as they want to purchase. GC keeps saying on Twitter that people would feel like they're obligated to switch specs for every pull. So why not put an hour cooldown on spec-swapping? Make the cost to purchase each spec scale up exponentially to be another gold sink. Most classes wouldn't buy more than 3 -5 anyway. End-game guilds might purchase 5+ but they're usually the richest among the player-base anyway so that's a good targeted gold-sink for them.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
12/28/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Jezebella
So why not put an hour cooldown on spec-swapping?

No. Just no.

I could write a long list why that would piss off a lot of players, but I'll let you figure that out.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275
12/28/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Mitimem
So why not put an hour cooldown on spec-swapping?

No. Just no.

I could write a long list why that would piss off a lot of players, but I'll let you figure that out.


No matter what they do, they'll make players angry. I wouldn't love an hour cooldown either, but if that's the compromise they want us to make then I'll certainly take it to get more specs. Hell, they could add on a 15 minute cooldown duration of spec swapping for each spec you purchase and I'd still buy 5.

GC insists that players would feel obligated to swap specs all the time if they had more. So if they're going to give us multiple specs (which I desperately want) then they have to do something to satisfy that fear.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Shaman
19875
DPS is something that all classes have in common. Literally any class can participate in the Brawler's Guild because of this. To make content for only healers (or only tanks as another thread in General requested) would be interesting but would have a significantly smaller audience and you would hear even more complaints from players about how their main is rogue and now they are being similarly "forced" to roll a class that can heal to participate in all of the content.

There's also nothing preventing you from rolling another character and DPSing in the BraG on them if that's the only way you'd feel comfortable DPSing. The only thing preventing your Priest from competing is the life choices you've made for your character. Any time you want to get down and dirty in the pit you can take up the dark arts, but it's not a place for healers - you're there to damage things with maximum efficiency.
Edited by Ninetales on 12/28/2012 2:20 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
11915
Putting it on an hour cooldown would hurt those of use that use dual spec properly right now to benefit the minority who refuse to use one of their two available specs for a spec that is viable in solo content.

A member of the raid switches spec because they don't need an off-tank on this fight, the raid doesn't need as many healers for this boss or someone changes spec for a certain ability that will help manage a mechanic. (This by the way is something that Blizzard was worried about when they implemented dual spec and they didn't want to encourage it. They don't balance encounters around players swapping specs for different fights within the same raid.)

Then there's the healer/tanks that switch to dps to do daily quests. You expect them to sit around waiting for a debuff to drop off them before they can switch back to the spec they group with?

You're suggesting solutions to a problem that does not exist. We don't need a solution and we don't need some crazy compromise like this hour cooldown nonsense. GC is not saying, "We'd like to have it if we could solve this concern." He's not the final authority on what ends up in the game anyway. Having more specs get brought up all the time ever since they added dual spec. Eventually someone from Blizzard makes a statement along these lines, "It's been discussed. We are not working on implementing it, but it hasn't been ruled out completely yet." That's how it's been nearly 4 years.

Training a different spec is easy. Changing glyphs is easy. Blizzard is in no way limiting you from playing any type of content. If a player chooses not to have a dps spec or refuses to visit a training to activate it, then they are limiting themselves.

Another choice is to make another character.
Reply Quote
100 Night Elf Druid
6070
12/28/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Jezebella
No matter what they do, they'll make players angry.


Who would actually be angry about more spec slots? And why? It's a no-lose proposition -- the worst that could happen is that some people wouldn't care.

12/28/2012 05:25 AMPosted by Flintte
if you were free to swap between all three (or four, in your case) specs, how often would you do it? A dps spec and a healing spec are enough to do all content, so I want to know just how often you would be switching to your tank spec or other dps spec. Is it something that you would do multiple times a day, or would you focus on your main two specs anyway?


This is an interesting question. I kind of suspect that I would end up neglecting my heal spec (and would probably not have the bag space to even attempt gearing all four specs, which is a shame in a way, but who really needs *two* DPS specs, one is enough for the content where you need one). Currently, I mostly queue by selecting both tank and heal roles and seeing what pops, which is usually tank on my server (server group? whatever). Presumably this wouldn't change much if I also selected DPS, since there's so much of a glut of DPS I would almost always be assigned one of the other roles.

Since I don't have a DPS spec available, I do dailies in whichever spec I'm less bored with, or happen to have on at the time. But it would be very tempting to use DPS for dailies all the time if I had it easily available (and of course for the content that I currently can't do at all because of lack of a spec slot to devote to a DPS spec; I admit that there is not very much of this, but the principle annoys me anyway), and the heroic queues would (probably) still mostly pop tank. (Unless there's a huge pool of heal/dps specced druids, paladins, and/or monks that would start building tank specs right now if they could do it without dropping one of their current specs.)

Of course if I start getting into LFR and having most of those queues pop healer because there are so few tank slots in a 25-man... then I'd *really* want all three roles available, tanking for 5-mans, healing for raids (and in addition to LFR, pug normal raids usually demand their healers have a DPS OS for fights where they want to run fewer healers -- encounter design is already clearly not based around having a fixed headcount of each role throughout a raid, and AFAIK never has been), and DPS for dailies/scenarios/soloing old content/etc.

Still, for me at least, this isn't a subscription-quitting issue or anything -- it's something that annoys me about the game, but I keep playing the parts I do like (and are available to someone with my spec choices).

12/28/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Mitimem
If a player chooses not to have a dps spec or refuses to visit a training to activate it, then they are limiting themselves.


This sentence is equally valid no matter which role you plug in -- which means it's not actually valid at all, because you can't choose to have all three specs, even if you belong to a class that has all three roles. I would totally agree that if you level a pure DPS class, you ARE choosing to limit yourself, but Blizzard bends over backwards to accommodate THAT choice in every possible way, while in practice denying to druids, paladins, and monks the promise on the class pages that you can fill any role -- they don't warn you that you'll have to choose 2 out of 3. You're not really "limiting yourself" if the game forces you to do it -- you're just dealing with the game's limitations in one way or another.

And even if it's taken for granted that you do have to choose 2 out of 3 roles, why should one of those choices be considered any less valid than the others? Blizzard should expect that any combination of specs will be chosen by some players and make an attempt not to exclude them. (Which, to give them fair credit, they do -- it's just not completely successful, hence threads like these.) It's the same reason they originally designed questing to accommodate any spec (at least well enough to finish the quests, even if not as fast as possible), back before dual spec existed.

P.S. Also, what Jezebella said. Pretty much all of it, except the part about being willing to trade a long cooldown on swapping for more specs. 10 min cooldown on swapping would probably be ok, by the time you finished what you were doing in one spec, you'd be able to change to another. An hour is way too long in this game.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275
12/28/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Mitimem
Putting it on an hour cooldown would hurt those of use that use dual spec properly right now to benefit the minority who refuse to use one of their two available specs for a spec that is viable in solo content.


I understand that and didn't suggest that it was the only feasible solution. 15 minutes per purchased spec as I mentioned was another one. And this is only if the problem of people switching specs too often is enough to prevent the developers from implementing it.

They don't balance encounters around players swapping specs for different fights within the same raid.)


Just because they don't know doesn't mean they would never, they just have stated they don't want to push players towards this with design decisions.

I was in this guild when we were US first, and it was actually something that happened very often in the old days. Our tanking DK (Edit: Brain-fart, warrior who later rerolled DK) back in Sunwell days literally respeced for every fight during progression. That was about 15+ minutes where he'd have to get a mage portal to a town or use his teleport ability and respec to optimize himself for the latest fight. It's something that still happens with talents, only it's much more convienant now and can be done on the fly.

Things like this will always happen. That isn't the concern. The concern is forcing casuals to feel like they are obligated to.

You expect them to sit around waiting for a debuff to drop off them before they can switch back to the spec they group with?


Again, refer to the comment above, but that aside I can state for myself that when I generally do something, whether it's dailies or dungeons or raids or pvp, I'm usually spending an hour min at that generic task. It's not something I suspect would limit me in my own personal experience.

I'm happy you enjoy the game being limited to two specs, but that doesn't mean other people don't have an issue with this.

GC is not saying, "We'd like to have it if we could solve this concern."


I never said he did. However, I can refer to things he did say in regards to this topic. When dual-specs were first implemented and people were initially asking for more specs, he stated that he wanted the decisions people made on their talent points to be meaningful. That was the reason we were provided when players asked. My argument to this is that's now invalid because we don't have talent points anymore.

Just because we're told it's not being worked on isn't a reason to disregard something that is preventing players from enjoying the game in the way we want to. If we did that, we'd be stuck in Molten Core days where feral specs and ret specs were laughed at and everyone who had heal spells were healers.

Training a different spec is easy. Changing glyphs is easy. Blizzard is in no way limiting you from playing any type of content. If a player chooses not to have a dps spec or refuses to visit a training to activate it, then they are limiting themselves.

Another choice is to make another character.


You're completely right but that doesn't make it right on principal. I have chosen to limit myself as I've stated earlier for a variety of reasons including cost, time, and effort, but that doesn't mean that's the right direction for the game to go.

Players should be encouraged to play their class inside and out in every area of content they have available to them with ease and convenience as long as it doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the game for others. Providing more specs would not hurt the game for others, and would make the game more enjoyable for the majority. Altering items like the Brawler's Guild and dailies so that stubborn people like the OP can do them in healing specs does hurt the game.

Edited for some quote issues and typos.
Edited by Jezebella on 12/28/2012 5:16 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275
12/28/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Calonderiel
No matter what they do, they'll make players angry.


Who would actually be angry about more spec slots? And why? It's a no-lose proposition -- the worst that could happen is that some people wouldn't care.


If it's one thing I've learned in my life it's that someone is always angry no matter what you do.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/28/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Jezebella
Our tanking DK back in Sunwell days


May want to specify that he had another main back then or else you come out looking rather derpy.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Who would actually be angry about more spec slots? And why? It's a no-lose proposition -- the worst that could happen is that some people wouldn't care.


Also there would still be people who refuse to spec anything but 3-4 healing specs and then complain that content is not designed around them.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275
12/28/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Keirisonis
Who would actually be angry about more spec slots? And why? It's a no-lose proposition -- the worst that could happen is that some people wouldn't care.


Also there would still be people who refuse to spec anything but 3-4 healing specs and then complain that content is not designed around them.


That's why I suggested letting people purchase as many specs as they want with a scaling up cost.

I don't really see any reason to limit the number of specs people can purchase at all, outside of unknown technical limitations in the implementation.
Reply Quote
12/28/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Jezebella
I was in this guild when we were US first, and it was actually something that happened very often in the old days. Our tanking DK back in Sunwell days literally respeced for every fight during progression. That was about 15+ minutes where he'd have to get a mage portal to a town or use his teleport ability and respec to optimize himself for the latest fight. It's something that still happens with talents, only it's much more convienant now and can be done on the fly.


DKs didn't exist in the Sunwell days. But I know the feeling, I was generally a healer but was brought as Shadow (aka the mana battery) if our other Shadow Priest was out. That meant a LOT of respeccing, to the point where I did my dailies everyday solely to afford the cost of all the respeccing I had to do, and I still had to borrow gold from the guild to afford it.

I do disagree with a cooldown, though. I may only switch between two specs, but I switch between them often. I might do my dailies as Shadow, have my dungeon queue pop, and go Holy, then go immediately back to Shadow after the dungeon. And I switch in raids depending on the fight (so far, I only heal on Stone Guard, which is the only fight we 3 heal, but we're only halfway through Vaults and only on the second boss of HoF). A cooldown would be a pain in the butt, and I don't think that it's the problem Blizzard has with triple specs. They've said some stuff about specs being meaningful and whatnot, and hopefully they'll change their mind, but if they have to implement a downside in order to make triple specs, I would hope that it wouldn't be a cooldown.

If we can't get triple specs, I don't see why we can't at least save our action bars. Swapping actual talents and glyphs takes seconds now, my main concern is switching all of my abilities and remembering where I had everything bound to. We should be able to save specs and switch between them at the trainer instead of only being able to unlearn everything and reallocate all of our points.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
7275
12/28/2012 05:03 PMPosted by Flintte
DKs didn't exist in the Sunwell days.


rofl, I'm an idiot. My bad.

He rerolled a DK when they came out as his main which was why I'm thinking of him, was a warrior back then. Complained constantly of respec costs, which always made me laugh cause he had such an absurd amount of gold.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Priest
11455
Well: this is the way that I see it.
Brawler's guild is 100% optional
Not having dps spec is 100% optional
Becoming an achievement !@#$% was your choice.

So, your choice, your choice, and your choice... none of which involve anything mandatory.


I get your point. but you could apply this line of thought against any suggestion or complaint towards any game ever. It isn't exactly the type of thinking that encourages a forum.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]