LFR loot system is deeply flawed.

90 Worgen Mage
12560
Jumped into LFR the other day to kill some time, ran Golden Lotus while waiting and ended up getting a brand spanking new staff and some shoulders, brilliant!

I guess really I'm just bragging because I've been lucky. Still have a couple of 450s to replace though...
90 Undead Warlock
8660
12/17/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Feihun
You have killed a total of 11 bosses total, that is not even close to a sufficient sample size.
90 Draenei Paladin
10545
Sha of Fear came out on the 20th of November.

I need Kilrak, Jaws of Terror.

Here is what I got instead.

I got two Tier 14 helmets and seven bags of gold. Including elder tokens, that would be 3-4 helmets and 10+ bags of gold. This was since Terrace LFR launch, to now.

The sword refused to drop. I got the gem before the weapon. And I am probably going to get the Socket with the valor from TK Raid/Dailies. Let me kill him this week and I will continue with more data.

I got it, it dropped! After how long? Man I feel good.
Edited by Berraant on 1/16/2013 1:34 PM PST
Community Manager
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.
Edited by Bashiok on 1/16/2013 1:07 PM PST
01/16/2013 10:17 AMPosted by Terrawatt
Blizz have already stated the LFR drop rate is far lower than the DS LFR drop rate,


Source?
90 Night Elf Druid
14440
01/16/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Niqodemus
You have killed a total of 11 bosses total, that is not even close to a sufficient sample size.


OPs post was made on 12/17.

He has plenty of gear now, so why point this out a month later?
90 Human Warrior
13600
The biggest gripe I have about it is not the loot drop rates, I dont care if I dont get anything, its the fact that sometimes its DUPLICATE stuff to what I already got the week before or whatever. Getting the same gear over and over is somewhat annoying.

When an item drops for you if your lucky, you should be given an option to DE the item -even though its epic it SHOULD NOT drop blood spirits- that would be better then just vendoring it when I leave the instance. At the point duplicate items drop the bag of gold is better so it feels like we just got double screwed.
1 Human Priest
0
While I agree statistically 11 is a small sample size. But this is probably the best argument for why random is not a good fit for LFR. If you're looking for a certain drop if we assume a 15% drop rate, you have a 83% chance of getting it in the first 11 kills. That's almost 3 months of LFR (how long is a tier?) and there's still almost a 1 in 5 chance you still won't have your item.

Also since gear can't be passed around, and people who already have gear can't "pass" on a need greed system, gear is less effectively used than it has under the old system. I know Blizzard has said LFR generally drops more gear than it used to. I'd love to see some numbers comparing how many pieces of gear were equipped and used under the old system vs what we see in the current system.
Edited by Jannaz on 1/16/2013 1:14 PM PST
90 Orc Hunter
11070
It's designed to prolong the life of the game. Which is why there are tons of dailies with gear locked behind them, heck, even the legendary quest is a rep grind with an "item" locked behind it.

Go back to the BC model and let us run specific dungeons for specific reputations and stop locking the gear away.
Edited by Brotality on 1/16/2013 1:11 PM PST
90 Draenei Hunter
0


As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher


No, no a thousand times no. These people smoke the drugs...
01/16/2013 12:23 PMPosted by Arcaeon
Even if the drop rate was the same before the new loot system, we are winning far less loot. In the old system, people were able to pass on loot, increasing your chance of winning it. I don't know the exact percentage, but there were a number of people who passed on gear because A. they already had it or B. they had something better on. Therefore increasing your chance to win loot dramatically.


Blizzard never intended for trading loot to be a means to increase your drop rate. It was added to the game as a quality of life improvement for looting errors. They had a ton of tickets every week from people that gave gear to the wrong person on accident or people needing on accident etc.

DS came out and it became clear that people were expoiting this mechanism so they took it out of LFR.
90 Pandaren Monk
16665
I think the issue is that it gives the perception that the loot never drops. Having a character go 4-5 weeks in a row of only gold is frustrating. Especially if you're trying to go from the 460 to 470 level. Often times this leads to picking up items that are far beyond LFR level just to get to the next tier of LFR, only to receive an item in that LFR that's worthless due to its ilvl. Crafting gear to meet an ilvl requirement for gear that's worse is a bad cycle.

I think the bigger issue is the coin system. The coins feel like something that should give you loot on a more consistent basis for the extra effort, and definitely not duplicate loot. Having characters go 10-15 coins without an item is disheartening. What's even worse is finally breaking that cycle with a duplicate item. Not only is it a 'waste' of a coin, especially on a boss that could have given you an item you don't have, but it's actually worse than just rolling gold unless you're an enchanter!

The system is definitely superior on a technical and theoretical level, but the feeling it gives to the player (something incredibly difficult to quantify or test beforehand) is very very discouraging.
90 Dwarf Death Knight
13630
All bosses should drop all loot from that particular raid. I'm tired of getting loot I already have over and over again while getting snubbed on the loot I need over and over again. Putting all the loot on one table won't fix that entirely, but it will certainly regulate it, diminishing repeats of gear and providing more opportunities for those hard to get pieces.
90 Night Elf Druid
6800
My druid (this toon) had decent luck in LFR. My hunter has run 25 or so scenario and 3 weeks of MV LFR and gotten one usable upgrade, a cloak. One upgrade.

Is this about the same as before? Probably. RNG is RNG? Yes. Absolutely. But it's frustrating for a couple of reasons that have nothing to do with math and everything to do with psychology.

First, we don't see anyone getting loot unless they link it in LFR. We know that they do, but the feel is that 'no loot dropped'. Second, unless we've unlocked the VP gear via rep, the VP we get isn't useful to us. Sure, we can upgrade epics, but if those aren't dropping for us we don't have the gear to upgrade. Third, once I've seen the content a bit I don't have an incentive to run LFR aside from loot.

Unlike a regular raid where I would continue to run because of the social aspects, LFR is only provides three things to me - loot, VP and a way to see content. If I've seen the content, can't use the VP without repping up on my alt and am not getting loot then at some point I'll stop running it.

This means that I won't be able to get gear which will enable me to see the next tier of LFR and that means I'm going to play less. Eventually it increases the odds that I'll end up burnt out on my main and with few alternatives for my alts and that I'll simply walk away for weeks, months or whatever.
Edited by Clevmeleon on 1/16/2013 1:20 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
10930
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Nice spin Bashiok.

The way loot is handed out in LFR is horrible. I have been doing raids in LFG for awhile now, and I have yet to see anyone get a tier piece. I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen. There should be a system in place much like the one that checks classes to ensure people do not get duplicate loot items. If they LFR tool is suppose to be a means to bridge the gap between newer players and getting them caught up ilevel wise this is a catastrophic failure. Actually if anyone is getting duplicate loot this is a massive failure. Sorry, but there is no way to spin this into anything other then a broken system.
90 Night Elf Warrior
6655
It's so weird how people take random systems personally like this. As if getting a duplicate item is outrageous,.... It seems to me like people are complaining about getting wet when they decide to stand in the rain.
Is this about the same as before? Probably. RNG is RNG? Yes. Absolutely. But it's frustrating for a couple of reasons that have nothing to do with math and everything to do with psychology. First, we don't see anyone getting loot unless they link it in LFR. We know that they do, but the feel is that 'no loot dropped'. Second, unless we've unlocked the VP gear via rep, the VP we get isn't useful to us. Sure, we can upgrade epics, but if those aren't dropping for us we don't have the gear to upgrade. Third, once I've seen the content a bit I don't have an incentive to run LFR aside from loot. Unlike a regular raid where I would continue to run because of the social aspects, LFR is only provides three things to me - loot, VP and a way to see content. If I've seen the content, can't use the VP without repping up on my alt and am not getting loot then at some point I'll stop running it.This means that I won't be able to get gear which will enable me to see the next tier of LFR and that means I'm going to play less. Eventually it increases the odds that I'll end up burnt out on my main and with few alternatives for my alts and that I'll simply walk away for weeks, months or whatever.


I do agree with you on this. And if the rumors are true that they are taking away the upgrade system I will have even less use for valor.
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