LFR loot system is deeply flawed.

01/16/2013 01:23 PMPosted by Snötlocker
The way loot is handed out in LFR is horrible. I have been doing raids in LFG for awhile now, and I have yet to see anyone get a tier piece. I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen. There should be a system in place much like the one that checks classes to ensure people do not get duplicate loot items. If they LFR tool is suppose to be a means to bridge the gap between newer players and getting them caught up ilevel wise this is a catastrophic failure. Actually if anyone is getting duplicate loot this is a massive failure. Sorry, but there is no way to spin this into anything other then a broken system.


Bosses have always dropped items you already have. The only difference is that instead of passing you get to vendor it.
90 Gnome Warlock
10930
Question 1: Before LFR loot system, how often were you getting loot? Of the 2-3 items that droped (for which you had to roll against others), how often did you win?


1a. how many times did nothing drop that you could roll on.

I much prefer getting 1(2) rolls on every boss than maybe 2 or 3 rolls total because only those 2 or 3 dropped something I could roll on.


After running a raid with your guild X amount of times your chances of obtaining something you need increases exponentially regardless of the loot system you guild uses. With the LFR tool you are always subject to the RNG and your chance at receiving anything never changes.
Edited by Snötlocker on 1/16/2013 1:26 PM PST
90 Night Elf Warrior
6655
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Nice spin Bashiok.



You're the one who is spinning this and you're being unreasonable as well.

Why don't you point out what exactly the spin was here that Bash injected into the topic?
What more would you want out of this system other than having your loot drops tracked so you get a statistical edge the more you do it?
01/16/2013 01:25 PMPosted by Snötlocker
After running a raid with your guild X amount of times your chances of obtaining something you need increases exponentially regardless of the loot system you guild uses. With the LFR tool you are always subject to the RNG and your chance at receiving anything never changes.


Good thing you are still able to run normals then!
90 Orc Death Knight
18660
01/16/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Bashiok
We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR.


That's is the most refreshing thing a Blue has said in quite a while. This is the kind of Main character completion focus that could help us move onto alts without making it 100% chance. Much like the Capture Battle Pet Mechanic... Its exciting to see this could become reality. With dedication and consistency on a main we could potentially see the ability to move on and focus on an alt in a single Tier as far as LFR is concerned.
01/16/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Bashiok
Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR.
I think part of it may be that last time around in LFR, stuff would drop and (most) people who'd already gotten it would pass, meaning over time your odds of winning would (at least appear to) gradually improve. Now that everyone has completely separate drops, it's just a fixed percentage.

I actually miss being able to pass on stuff. When there's others in the run who could obviously use something that I win and have to vendor, it can be kind of frustrating.
90 Draenei Paladin
9600
As awesome as numbers on paper are I have to say the this doesn't feel heroic or rewarding.

While I enjoy the lack of drama that was a big part of the Cata loot I have to say that the reward system in MOP has been what I've hated the most about MOP. Beating a boss shouldn't feel dropping a quarter into a slot machine.
90 Orc Warrior
14095
01/16/2013 01:23 PMPosted by Snötlocker
I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen.


The same loot dropping over and over is what happens in real raiding. Welcome to the way the game works.
90 Gnome Warlock
10930


Nice spin Bashiok.



You're the one who is spinning this and you're being unreasonable as well.

Why don't you point out what exactly the spin was here that Bash injected into the topic?
What more would you want out of this system other than having your loot drops tracked so you get a statistical edge the more you do it?


You need to look up spin and think about how it applies here. Your failure to comprehend that negates anything you said after that, which is exactly where I stopped reading. GG
Edited by Snötlocker on 1/16/2013 1:31 PM PST
90 Gnome Warlock
10930
01/16/2013 01:28 PMPosted by Arkthan
I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen.


The same loot dropping over and over is what happens in real raiding. Welcome to the way the game works.
At least with real raiding you can actually pass on it so someone who actually needs it can get it.
90 Troll Mage
12125
when an LFR tier becomes 'out of date'... is there any chance that you could say... make a vendor that sells the lfr gear for mogg?(could cost JP's or.. reasonable amount of gold)

because with Dragon soul, you can go in there on normal/heroic with a small group of 5-10 and completely clear the entire thing until you get what you were hoping for Mogg-wise.

but with Dragon soul LFR... you cant que up for it the moment you hit 86, and even if you camp lvl 85 unless you find about 20 other level 85's from your realm... you wont get into the que (20 to account for the few people in que from other realms) which means that entire unique look of that tier/gear is locked out.

and on a somewhat unrelated note: can you explain the removal of general chat in Raids, Dalaran, Shattrath? because Dal/shat was a great way to find people for old content from other realms when your realm was killed by realm/faction transfers

and raid general helped get the community on my old realm(BDF) to be more tight nit and close.. where we could cheer on the 'oh man!! wiped at 3% on ultrax Q_Q' posts or 'WOOT found Cunning of the cruel!' /envies lol

TL;DR allow us to obtain lfr gear even after it is out of date (or we outlevel the que...) and Bring back geneal chat that you removed with MoP q-q
90 Goblin Hunter
11845
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Nice spin Bashiok.

The way loot is handed out in LFR is horrible. I have been doing raids in LFG for awhile now, and I have yet to see anyone get a tier piece. I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen. There should be a system in place much like the one that checks classes to ensure people do not get duplicate loot items. If they LFR tool is suppose to be a means to bridge the gap between newer players and getting them caught up ilevel wise this is a catastrophic failure. Actually if anyone is getting duplicate loot this is a massive failure. Sorry, but there is no way to spin this into anything other then a broken system.


I have 4pc and 3 of those are from lfr and the last Sha, all using this loot system.

When did loot drops ever take into consideration what you already have?

01/16/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Snötlocker


The same loot dropping over and over is what happens in real raiding. Welcome to the way the game works.
At least with real raiding you can actually pass on it so someone who actually needs it can get it.


In an evenly dispersed raid comp you generally don't need any item more than twice before it goes to offspec dps of healers who never dps in raids. It is incredibly common to shard items on the 2nd or 3rd kill when most people still need items from the boss.
Edited by Sayne on 1/16/2013 1:34 PM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
18910
After running a lot of LFR's... I've have yet to get any loot out of those bags, even with using my elder charms. I've seen a ridiculous number of complaints of duplicate loot. After 3 weeks of bags of "28 gold" I'm getting fed up that the effort I put into this, there zero results. I no longer see the point of it.

Blizz -- When will you fix the loot system to go back to the previous system, but refine need/greed per class and specialization. EX: Holy Pallys not rolling need on tank gear ect.


When the LFR version of Dragonsoul came out, I was pumped to have a chance to get some decent loot without having to save a certain number of hours, 2-3 times a week specifically to Raiding with the busy schedule that I had the time. And within that loot table, I wanted nothing more than to get my hands on Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps.

As the weeks passed, I continued to have no such luck. Most of the time, the item never dropped, I was getting accustomed to seeing the Bow and the Caster Staff drop constantly. One time I saw 4 Pole Arms drop in one kill, and when Gurth actually DID drop, not only did I have to roll against the vast amount of plate DPS within the raid, but Blood DKs and Prot Paladins were eligible for the Need roll as well. Next thing I knew it was September 25th and it was time to move on, but I never did win a roll on that tentacle spawning beauty.

Point of the story is, this new system works, and it works damn well. RNG is RNG, it happens. Some people never see Ashes of Al'ar drop after grinding it for years, then a Guildy of yours attempts a kill for the mount and gets it on their first try.

At least when I go into a new LFR I know that if something is going to drop, it's going to be mine and I don't have to worry about losing the roll to half of the raid.

As for the 28.50, I'd rather get chump change than jack squat. And by the way, if you don't use a coin on a single boss and you get nothing but gold. 28.50 x 16 bosses is 456g. 8 bosses in Dragonsoul + no loot = Nothing. Sounds good to me.

Keep up the good work Blizz, I am lovin' this Expansion :)
90 Orc Warrior
14095
01/16/2013 01:31 PMPosted by Snötlocker
At least with real raiding you can actually pass on it so someone who actually needs it can get it.


So the fact that i am raiding with 9 people i know and can trade unneeded gear while you cant in LFR means that you should get more gear you need? Thats basically what you are asking. Or are you asking for the game to give you gold instead of gear you already have? There is no reason why LFR should be more rewarding than real raiding, quite the opposite really.
90 Goblin Shaman
9550

The biggest gripe I have about it is not the loot drop rates, I dont care if I dont get anything, its the fact that sometimes its DUPLICATE stuff to what I already got the week before or whatever. Getting the same gear over and over is somewhat annoying.


This is the only gripe I have about the new loot system (which is much much better than the DS model). I got 3 Tier Leggings and 2 PvP bracers from Sha until I got the gloves yesterday since killing him every week with bonus rolls a week after Launch. 2 Shields from Garajal , 3 Cloaks from Guardians , 3 belts from Tsulong and the next boss. I am missing couple more duplicates.

Considering I am no enchanter, the duplicates are nothing but vendor trash for me. Saying you won a loot and then to provide with a duplicate or a downgrade is not exactly winning an item that will lift your character up.

With using all the VP for gear upgrade, I have no VP to spare for my Off spec (say enhance) or queue for off spec in LFR when my main itself doesnt have a better gear.

There needs to be a system which can identify the existing specc and the gear level and give an alternate loot for an offspec if your main specc has a better item than what was to be distributed. I am pretty sure that Blizz is aware of the duplicate situation and hopefully they will address it in the future.
Edited by Ashuraa on 1/16/2013 1:38 PM PST
17 Human Warlock
70
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


I don't understand why you bothered to type out the first paragraph. I don't think many people are arguing that the idea of LFR is bad. Yes, it was a good idea during DS but there were kinks that needed fixed. Everyone was asking to eliminate the hunters taking strength gear and crap like that, and to stop the people from rolling on gear they already had just to be jerks or to trade it to friends. Instead of giving us what we asked for, you shove something new down our throats and tell us to like it because "it works" for some people. Well, technically the old system "worked" for some people too.

A lot of people, including myself, liked the old loot system more. It was fun to see what dropped at the end of an encounter and have a shot at winning an upgrade. If it was tweaked effectively, that is what LFR would be like today - everyone would have a higher chance of getting something they need - not just a chance of getting something. Plus, there's the added fun of seeing who ended up getting what. Instead you have the bags of gold that everyone hates and duplicate items that everyone hates. People who win items do so silently unless they choose to brag about it.
Edited by Met on 1/16/2013 1:38 PM PST
90 Human Death Knight
12455
In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players . . . . It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future.

Perhaps you should think bigger than "tweaks?"

I think you are spot on when you point out that LFR is really an entirely different animal than traditional raiding, even though cosmetically it looks very similar - the notion of "alone together" makes the format almost unrecognizable when compared to "10 or 25 guildmates working on behalf of team."

Why, then, do we have the same fundamental loot concept (boss has a chance to drop loot)?

I doubt you've ever seriously considered random, duplicate loot as a quest or reputation reward - because you understand that quests are basically "solo play." Imagine how insane it would be to get Klaxxi to Exalted and end up getting the exact same unique-equip piece of loot you got for getting Golden Lotus to Exalted.

Maybe you need a whole new loot paradigm for LFR - not a simple derivative/tweak of "classic" raiding.

I appreciate and believe what the numbers say - but LFR loot "feels" bad. And that's just as important as the numbers I think.
Edited by Waste on 1/16/2013 1:39 PM PST
90 Goblin Death Knight
9595
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Sadly you guys just keep trying to defend the the issues that no one seemed to have with the old loot system which I'm sure everyone wants back after having to deal with not getting loot 5 weeks in a row.
90 Dwarf Paladin
18910
Almost forgot.

If anyone did not already know, and you happen to find yourself with nothing to and some extra Elder Coins laying around. You can return to a completed LFR for the week, and though you will not be eligible for normal loot drops, you can use your coins for a 2nd attempt at loot you are looking to get your hands on.

I went back to the Terrace of the Endless Springs last week for a 2nd go at the Sha of Fear. Used an Elder Coin and got me a Shin'ka, Execution of Dominion
90 Human Mage
15535
There is a particular problem though. This xpac contains a quest chain which ostensibly lasts the duration of the xpac affecting weapon choices and yet the weapon you need to make use of the Prince's quest effort simply does not drop for some people including myself. This has not really been the case before and people are left with their gem but no weapon to use it on. I understand RNG but the expectations about these items are influenced by the quests built around them.

We do not know if 5.2 brings more sha touched weapons or not. To then be told upgrades are out the window as well creates anxiety as to the likelihood the weapon will ever drop at a time it would be useful.

So please either say that 5.2 holds sha socket choices (and we can patiently wait) or make the weapon drop rate go up before 5.2 so those of us without a weapon can upgrade it like all the players who have had more luck. I really do not want to have to upgrade my inscription staff only to throw it away as soon as 5.2 lands.
Edited by Caileron on 1/16/2013 1:44 PM PST
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