LFR loot system is deeply flawed.

90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13010
The biggest gripe I have about it is not the loot drop rates, I dont care if I dont get anything, its the fact that sometimes its DUPLICATE stuff to what I already got the week before or whatever. Getting the same gear over and over is somewhat annoying.

When an item drops for you if your lucky, you should be given an option to DE the item -even though its epic it SHOULD NOT drop blood spirits- that would be better then just vendoring it when I leave the instance. At the point duplicate items drop the bag of gold is better so it feels like we just got double screwed.


I have to honestly agree with this. My friends and I are sick of the only pieces we get are from last week. However, the blood spirits... not experienced yet.
01/16/2013 12:59 PMPosted by Bashiok
You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.


Yes! Finally a proper description of LFR. This sentence right here answers all the questions regarding looting: there is no MS>OS "rule", there is no such thing as "needing on my loot", there is no need to finish a raid if you got what you wanted.

LFR is a self-service, drive-thru raid. It's just like fast food; quick, cheap but not very substantial.
90 Orc Death Knight
18660
When the LFR version of Dragonsoul came out, I was pumped to have a chance to get some decent loot without having to save a certain number of hours, 2-3 times a week specifically to Raiding with the busy schedule that I had the time. And within that loot table, I wanted nothing more than to get my hands on Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps.

As the weeks passed, I continued to have no such luck. Most of the time, the item never dropped, I was getting accustomed to seeing the Bow and the Caster Staff drop constantly. One time I saw 4 Pole Arms drop in one kill, and when Gurth actually DID drop, not only did I have to roll against the vast amount of plate DPS within the raid, but Blood DKs and Prot Paladins were eligible for the Need roll as well. Next thing I knew it was September 25th and it was time to move on, but I never did win a roll on that tentacle spawning beauty.

Point of the story is, this new system works, and it works damn well. RNG is RNG, it happens. Some people never see Ashes of Al'ar drop after grinding it for years, then a Guildy of yours attempts a kill for the mount and gets it on their first try.

At least when I go into a new LFR I know that if something is going to drop, it's going to be mine and I don't have to worry about losing the roll to half of the raid.

As for the 28.50, I'd rather get chump change than jack squat. And by the way, if you don't use a coin on a single boss and you get nothing but gold. 28.50 x 16 bosses is 456g. 8 bosses in Dragonsoul + no loot = Nothing. Sounds good to me.


Dragon Soul - 2 LFR's Time invested in LFR per week. 2 hours.

MSV/HoF/TES - 5 LFR's Time invested in LFR per week. 8+ hours. More if you count going back in to HoF to use my coins on the Garalon Tank Helmet. ...

2 hours wasted with nothing to show for it. Oh well. 8 hours wasted over 4 days... with some gold to show for it... Quite a lot less of "oh well" and a lot more "ARRRRRRRRRRRRG"
90 Dwarf Paladin
18900
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Sadly you guys just keep trying to defend the the issues that no one seemed to have with the old loot system which I'm sure everyone wants back after having to deal with not getting loot 5 weeks in a row.


I went 4 months with the old loot table not winning a single piece of loot. I'd take 5 weeks any day. What are you trying to defend?
90 Blood Elf Mage
6030
I put all of my time into my Paladin. She is at item level 488 and is at revered status with all of the MoP reps that have Valor Gear.

My guild now needs me to raid with my mage for the time being. The mage is at item level 475. I have everything gemmed, forged and enchanted. I have hot keyed all of my spells and I have done my research on the spell rotation.

I am last on the DPS meter. I am trying as hard as I can not to be. All of the other DPS in the raid have an average of item level 488, similar to my Paladin.

The drop rate in LFR is really bad.

I do not like the feeling of being carried by my guild.

What does Blizzard expect raiders to do to gear up when a situation like mine happens? It took me months to get my paladin geared to where she is at.

Thank you,
90 Gnome Warlock
10860
Bashiok, If you are looking for feedback. I just find that LFR, providing more than just "loot" is what breaks it for me. It is ofcourse, one of the most efficient ways of getting VP for the casual players. I know I am going to get flamed by some of my fellow players but either increase the amount of VP you get from dungeons/scenarios/dailies or reduce the VP you get from LFR.

I am sick and tired of running LFR every week, to the point that even though I am one of your "players to pick the patch to least resistance", I have stopped doing most of the LFR's and now just try to get VP by grinding dungeons.

I am hoping that something be done about this. If I choose to level an alt for raiding in the next patch, I sure will not be looking forward to grinding out 8 LFRs for loot per week.....yer killing us with that.
90 Orc Monk
8035
I preferred the old LFR loot system better. Even if there was a problem with people need rolling on stuff and trying to sell if afterwards (IE in Dragonsoul) I still would feel like I accomplished something as opposed to no cookie after sometimes weeks of this new LFR. And then theres the other option of grinding dailies for reputation for gear. Never ever have I liked daily quests. I don't want to repeat the 3rd grade every single day. It's really insulting. Especially for a pay to play game.

TDLR Bring back an improved version of the old loot raid system. This new one is obviously very polarizing to the community.
90 Worgen Death Knight
11910
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


Besides making blue posts, do you even work at Blizzard? I mean seriously? Until you have actually raided in LFR for a month or two, then evaluated the amount of gear you have obtained through out that course, you have no right to say that the current system is justifiable. This is coming from someone that obtains duplicate gear pieces from LFR when another class in the raid clearly could of used it. It doesn't take 5 seconds to inspect someone to see that they needed a tier piece and I had already had that particular piece prior. LFR is flawed, as well as the Elder charms.

I have no idea what the chance is to get gear from Elder charms is but If I had to take a educated guess, I'd say its literally around ~25% or less. I save mine in particular for main raids so I have a chance to get heroic gear, and why do I always expect something I'll never know. Take this feedback from someone with experience and not someone that sits back in their chair eating cheetos while watching "statistical droprates". You guys never learn from the common knowledge of your customers. Experience is your best teacher, please play your own game so you know how to make it better.
90 Orc Warrior
12465
I have been thinking about this whole RNG thing. I am a computer engineer by trade. That means that i write software for a living. I truly know how random random is in the computer world. You really can't rely on it to be very random. Unless of course you make your sample size extremely large and unusable.

What tickles my interest is this.
So when the blues posts on "the numbers" they always add this phrase.
"when we look at the over all drop rate across the realms we are happy where it is"

That is where I get a little nerd tweeked. Since as a player I can't randomly become part of the sample pool aka randomly be apart of the RNG generator for every realm. Then i can not be part of the over all sampling.

I can however be apart of the sampling on the realm that i play on.

I think summing it all up is skewing the data and the source of the feeling on your own realm that nothing ever good happens to you.

That is of course assumes *yes i know what that means* that each instance of the decision engine has its own RNG generator and they are all separate.

I know for me sometimes i feel like i live on the island of the damned.

For example the shield that dropped in Cataclysm off of Baleroc. I must have killed that thing 45 times... and i was never blessed to have it.

I would like to look at the implementation of their RNG and see if what i assume is going on is what really is going on.

I guess this is one of those weird nerd things that vexes your mind when something never drops.
Edited by Tivex on 1/16/2013 1:55 PM PST
A better chance? Really Bashiok?

Let's do a simple evaluation here, shall we?
1st and fore most, for tanks, their only competition is the off-tank. So when a loot intended for the tank drops, in the old LFR, his chance was 50%. Way higher than your 15%.

For healers due to spirit->hit conversion for hybrids things get a little trickier, unless you're a holy paladin. Considering 3 holy pallies, which is already above average, they'd have 33% chance at any spirit plate.

Shamans would only compete among themselves and elementals. The average raid has around 4-5 intellect shamans, which is a 20-25% chance already when int mail drops.

Druids only compete with monks. The average for that is 3-5 monk/druid healers, giving a 20-33% chance at loot.

Priest only compete with other priests. They rarely exceed 6 per raid, giving a ~16.7% chance at spirit cloth loot.

DPS specs only compete with their own armor classes, which averages 5-8 per raid, 12.5-20% chance per loot.

And the most ignored factor of all: Passing. Even though people love to point out guildies needing for each other, passing happened frequently and helped out a lot by greatly increasing loot chance for those who were also competing for it.

One may argue the fact that those odds are only if the loot actually dropped. But it's also a fact that it is much easier for it to show up in multiple bosses, than a static 15% chance per boss.

That takes down the fallacy that the old system was worse. And i have personally used it and it's a fact that i got all my characters geared at least 3 times.

The increasing chance for unlucky players should have been thought about from design. It's not "new tech" at all, it's elementary-grade programming, and it is really perplexing to think that you didn't have this implemented from the start.

It's really, really sad to see that "blizz quality" gets a worse conotation with each passing year. I only hope that you can actually learn from your mistakes, drawing the correct conclusions as for why they happened in the first place.
(hint: it wasn't fast gearing, it was pure lack of content. Rep grinds via dailies are also the very definition of BORING. Here's hoping you wake up when the subscriptions plummet.)
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13895
ok... so there may be a higher statistical chance to get loot from an lfr boss, however i'd like to know if those statistics are counting duplicate and downgrade loot because what's the point of winning more drops that we don't need?

i don't have enough personal data to make that determination, but there is definitely a number of perceptual problems under the new system and the obvious waste is one of them. if you only get to see a lot of waste and inefficiency then you assume the average player (including yourself) is not getting as much 'usable' loot. i can't say if that's actually true or not but it feels that way.
90 Draenei Paladin
9865
No please stop with these threads, LFR is a chance to see content, gear is a bonus. If blizzard starts upping the chance of drops, it'll only generate more hate and one month later i'll guarantee people will be asking for increased drop rates once again. Blizzard make a stand and cement your design how it is today, don't change it.
90 Blood Elf Priest
17085
I am last on the DPS meter. I am trying as hard as I can not to be. All of the other DPS in the raid have an average of item level 488, similar to my Paladin.

The drop rate in LFR is really bad.

I do not like the feeling of being carried by my guild.

What does Blizzard expect raiders to do to gear up when a situation like mine happens? It took me months to get my paladin geared to where she is at.


Did your paladin do faction dailies to Revered? If so, buy the commendation badge and do a few dailies on your mage - the rep xp is amazing for alts. One week and you can buy gear for your mage (of course she'll need valor to spend).

Use all the resources instead of clinging to one and complaining that it's not doing it for you.

ps. I got a giant stick to carry around last night. Went in for a dagger, got this thing. Upped my ilvl and looks better than my Inscription staff with that dragon trying to eat my hair. Also got 8 bags of gold which was the norm - getting *any* loot is an exciting event!
90 Human Warrior
12165
Nice spin Bashiok.

The way loot is handed out in LFR is horrible. I have been doing raids in LFG for awhile now, and I have yet to see anyone get a tier piece. I have also been a victim of receiving duplicate loot. By victim I mean that this should NEVER happen. There should be a system in place much like the one that checks classes to ensure people do not get duplicate loot items. If they LFR tool is suppose to be a means to bridge the gap between newer players and getting them caught up ilevel wise this is a catastrophic failure. Actually if anyone is getting duplicate loot this is a massive failure. Sorry, but there is no way to spin this into anything other then a broken system.


I've gotten tier pieces, off pieces, rings, amulets and weapons from LFR.

You clearly don't understand loot roles if you think nobody should see duplicate loot. This isn't a fast track to gear path. You are not going to get a new piece of loot from every boss. There is a loot table for your class/role. When you kill a boss, the system rolls on that table.

You either get gold (aka nothing dropped for you), or you get a piece of loot. The system is not, and should not check your equipment to determine what piece of loot you won. That's not how a random awards system works. It's never worked that way in this game.
01/16/2013 01:52 PMPosted by Kenshiro
1st and fore most, for tanks, their only competition is the off-tank. So when a loot intended for the tank drops, in the old LFR, his chance was 50%. Way higher than your 15%.


Um no. First, loot that is tank specific has to drop and there is no guarantee that it will. So, 50% is greatly exaggerated.
90 Human Paladin
10635
The LFR loot system works extremely well for what it's intended to do, it sees a ton of traffic, and gears people up in end-game content that just wasn't possible even a year ago. By all accounts it offers people not able to commit the time, or have the resources, to raid. That in and of itself is a major accomplishment, and the intent of the LFR system. Regardless of your personal circumstances, you can get in there, see the story, experience most of the content, and get some decent items. But I think the rub is the expectations it sets. It looks like a raid, and it smells like a raid, but there's fundamental differences in how it's perceived due to the format. For traditional raiding you get together with your guildies and friends, you struggle on bosses, wipe after wipe, and finally through teamwork and perseverance you overcome the obstacle, loot drops, and even if you don't win a roll you feel like you've made a meaningful contribution to your team and your chances at success later through the overall gearing up of your raid group. In LFR the entire dynamic has to change because you're being matched up semi-randomly with other players. Because of that there is no feeling of helping your team get better, you enter the queue alone, and it's mainly about personal goals to gear up, which then maybe help you in coordinated raids later. You're in there for loot for yourself, and because of that there's less tolerance for overcoming obstacles, so encounters are much easier, and the loot system is per-person and not a communal distribution.

As others have noted the chance to get items in LFR versus a traditional raid scenario are actually higher, but that doesn't change the expectations of people jumping into LFR that this should be a system that provides more consistency. Whatever the underlying reason is for that, I'm not totally sure it matters beyond there is an expectation difference between traditional raiding and LFR. It's something we're keeping an eye on for potential tweaks in the future. We have tech for quests that increases your chance for a quest item to drop if you haven't gotten one recently, and so that's something we're at least beginning to think about and how that kind of consistency system could translate into things like the LFR. If nothing else tweaking drop rates on prior tiers when a new tier hits is pretty low hanging fruit on at least ensuring people can more easily get those last few ilvls so they can queue for the new tier.


The whole raiding format is inverted. This leads to confused expectations.

LFR kills should not occur before many server firsts.
Normal/Heroic raiders should not farm tier in LFR.
LFR gear should not be simple reclours of normal/heroic gear.
The best source of Legendary quest items should not be LFR (it should not be a source imo).
You should not feel you're done the game when you finish LFR.

What would I do?

Short version:

Gear
- Give LFR tier only a 4 piece bonus, equal to normal modes two piece.
- Make LFR gear recolours of heroic dungeon gear (since it's closest in difficulty). If heroic dungeon gear isn't available for a new tier, give the distinctive pieces different models.
- The LFR version of the 'legendary' quest should award epic items.

Format
- Give LFR two lockouts, not shared with each other or normal/heroic. One would be cross realm like now, the other would be server only and require you to make your own group.
- Lock server only LFR until a guild on the server clears normal or heroic.
- Lock cross realm LFR until a set percentage of servers have cleared normal or heroic. Server only LFR unlocked for the remaining servers as well at this point.

Result
- Progression races matter
- Normal/heroic gear is distinctive
- Player expectations set properly
- Increased LFR drop rate (2 chances instead of 1), but only if you make the effort to make a server group
- Improved server communities
- Greater incentive to try normal mode raids
- A desire for more after LFR, not a feeling of completion

Long version

Coming to a blog near you (hopefully this weekend) with additional topics including: normal/heroic mode consolidation, item level structure, item upgrades, and server events among others.
Edited by Yandere on 1/16/2013 2:15 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Hunter
20105
EDIT: n/m
Edited by Deãdpool on 1/16/2013 2:14 PM PST
90 Orc Death Knight
18660
I would like to look at the implementation of their RNG and see if what i assume is going on is what really is going on.

I guess this is one of those weird nerd things that vexes your mind when something never drops.


When I cite things I dislike about wow, and things I would change. This is the one that stands out the most as the most frustrating, the thing that causes me to think about quitting the most, the one part of the game that makes me the most angry and makes me rethink spending so much time playing this game. Its the one thing that feels the least fun and really can bring me to tears week after week, dropping into a depressive misery that is unmatched by anything else in wow.

I spent 13 months in DS. Hagara NEVER dropped the plate belt while I was in the raid. In Vanilla. I spent from BWL to the end of Naxx trying to get my T2 Rogue helm. Every week...

Nothing... and I mean absolutely nothing else in this game makes me as angry as the RNG. I don't like Gambling. I find it a deplorable past-time... I think people who gamble away their families money are terrible people. And yet I deal with it every day in wow. I want time invested to = results. I EXPECT time invested to = results.

I have killed 80,000+ Bogflare Needlers. (yeah I counted) ... No bug. Ive given up. I refuse to kill another stupid bug... To me that was one of the worst experiences OF MY LIFE... not in this game, I feel abused and taken advantage of by wow... I was given a carrot, here is this thing, you can pay insane amounts of money or just kill these for a long time and get one. and I am not one to not work hard. So I put my head down and worked, and I have nothing... NOTHING to show for it.

I am all for RNG... yes there is merit in some level of random. But the ability for someone to be infinitely unlucky... is unacceptable. It breeds a discontent and anger that is unmatched anywhere else. It makes you sick week after week you cross your fingers and you click the stupid coin icon and gold... the first 3 weeks ... yeah im unlucky... the next 3 ... wow this sucks, but yeah im unlucky. the next 3 weeks... I hate this I wish I was ****.. Why do I keep doing this I hate myself for keeping at it, I hate the game, I hate this system, this raid sucks... Why oh god why cant It just stop already Please god please im so miserable I hate this so much. Hard work and dedication starts to look like insanity in your own eyes. Doing the same thing and expecting different results, its how many define insane. After this long I FEEL INSANE... How can I keep doing this. How can I keep at it... How?! ... There has to be something fundamentally wrong in my brain, I know this is wrong, I know I hate it... but I keep doing it. I keep expecting this coin... this one coin is going to be the one. This will be the motherload, all this work will finally be worth it. GOLD... T_T

You know its addiction. This is the definition of Addiction ... LFR and the loot system in general is addiction to gambling, and I hate myself for it. But I need that fix... i need it :(
RNG isn't really as random. I've watched all leather wearing toons, including my own, gear 2-3 times faster then any cloth/mail/plate wearers. The RNG gods really do favor leather wearers because monk is Blizzards new baby.

My main is a cloth wearer and has a lot more trouble gearing. She just barely just got her 2 piece tier bonus and is currently burning all her bonus tokens for a sha touched weapon to no avail. I've had the gem for around 6 weeks, but no weapon to put it in.

Another fail with the currently loot system. I watch my leather wearing druid friend get 5-10 sha crystals from running LFR every week because he's always getting loot he doesn't need and is an enchanter. When I get a piece of gear I don't need I just sell it to the vendor for 24 gold. With high end enchants costing 10 sha crystals, enchanters really come out on top right now, with the rest of us spending 600-1000g per crystal for our enchants.
Edited by Darkprowler on 1/16/2013 2:15 PM PST
90 Human Paladin
14640
The only flaw is people thinking LFR should be some "loot pinata" like 5-mans.
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