Buffing Disc in PTR 5.2

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100 Human Priest
17310
Eh, the mastery scaling in the new spirit shell will still effect the DA portion (speculation, but educated speculation).
I wrote the formulas here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714

The rapture change is what we needed. And PoH spam is still unsustainable in my time till oom calc at 15k and 20k spirit for longer than 3 minutes. You will still be able to spam PoH to prep with aegis (as you should) but it isn't unreasonable. You can win the hps meters, but it won't be any crazier than using comparative burst healing cd's that other classes bring.

I'm already estimating I'll be running with 15k spirit (and a lot more haste than I have currently). This is a 5% return, but if you subtract the actual cost of a pw:s it's more like 2.56%. A 15 second rapture cd (which I wouldn't be able to achieve) isn't game breaking for the spec. I'm more worried that the slight mana advantage, combined with the higher resistance (from focused will) and absorbs niche pushes me into playing the spec over holy for everything.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
SS PoH = Average PoH Heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1+Mastery %)) * (1+Critical %)

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + Critical %) * (1 + (0.3 * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Critical %)))


This was why I was thinking too. It averages out to a ~9% nerf to SS at my current stat values, which is a really minor nerf to our overall throughput. I'm actually quite pleased that they decided to tone down SS in this manner, as it allows us to retain the core functionality and strengths of SS. Mastery will still be my main focus as its reliable contribution to DA means that it'll still be one of our stronger stats.

That aside, the increase of Rapture to 250% seems completely unnecessary as it effectively balances out the nerf to it no longer benefiting from short duration Spirit bonuses. I'm also really surprised that they're keeping DA the way it is, although there's still hope and time for them to realize how ridiculous it is right now and tone it down eventually.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The rapture change is what we needed. And PoH spam is still unsustainable in my time till oom calc at 15k and 20k spirit for longer than 3 minutes. You will still be able to spam PoH to prep with aegis (as you should) but it isn't unreasonable. You can win the hps meters, but it won't be any crazier than using comparative burst healing cd's that other classes bring.


One of them was needed, the 250% change wasn't. I'll still be swimming in excess mana with these changes, so all it does is make us less reliant on MTT.

The good Disc Priests are currently 'winning' the meters by over 25% on fights with some form of burst damage, and close to 50% on certain fights, simply because of how strong DA is right now. I hardly call that reasonable. I do hope you enjoy spamming PoH as Disc, because unless further changes to DA are implemented, that's all you'll still be doing in 5.2

I agree with you on Disc overshadowing Holy though. Even though Holy is a perfectly useable spec, its a huge pity that any progression Priest will never get to go Holy (outside of gimmick fights like Tsulong on 25 man) as Disc is simply too strong for any raid to pass up on.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 4:34 AM PST
91 Goblin Warlock
8710
Not a fan of that mastery nerf if it's as people here are interpreting it. Seems like unclean design to have a 'shield mastery' that only effects some shields. Adjusting SS's output directly would have been better.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
12/22/2012 04:21 AMPosted by Leviathan
Not a fan of that mastery nerf if it's as people here are interpreting it. Seems like unclean design to have a 'shield mastery' that only effects some shields. Adjusting SS's output directly would have been better.


Mastery still affects SS. The likely formula for it in 5.2 is (1+crit)*{[(1+mastery)*(0.5PoH)] + PoH}. Refer to Volios' post if you want the formula for non-PoH SS.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 4:25 AM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
11960
Eh, the mastery scaling in the new spirit shell will still effect the DA portion (speculation, but educated speculation).
I wrote the formulas here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714


Yeah, that's the exact formulae we've been discussing here; I also wrote it out here or in the OT thread (can't remember), but it is still speculation ;)

The thing is, I just don't know that they will do it in the way that makes sense to us.

I think my faith was shattered by the lazy (and PoH-overvaluing - surprise, surprise!) implementation of Inner Focus/Spirit Shell. I really really really hope it's the way you've written it there and the way we've all been discussing, but I don't know that it will be.

12/22/2012 04:19 AMPosted by Ceddya
The good Disc Priests are currently 'winning' the meters by over 25%, and close to 50% on certain fights, simply because of how strong DA is right now. I hardly call that reasonable. I do hope you enjoy spamming PoH as Disc, because unless further changes to DA are implemented, that's all you'll still be doing in 5.2


I think we need to really be careful with the "PoH spam" stuff. The only cases where that has been occurring has been a very few extremely high-damage fights where the MTT/Rapture synergy was fueling it. What I'm worried about is not so much that we will just back-to-back PoH the whole encounter, but that PoH+DA is so strong that it edges out many of our other healing options. I aaaam leaving it at that since last time I brought this up it started a whooooole kinda crazy hijack. :P

I'd like to see DA toned down too, but when I brought it up with GC on Twitter his response was that "DA is all Disc has for AE healing" so he wasn't terribly inclined to revert the buff.

My guess is it changes to this for SS PoH and SS single-target heals...

SS PoH = Average PoH Heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1+Mastery %)) * (1+Critical %)

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + Critical %) * (1 + (0.3 * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Critical %)))

If I did something stupid somewhere please call me out on it.


The bolded 0.3 should be a 0.5. But yes, that is what I believe they mean as well, I just ... well ... can't say for sure. We will find out in the new year!
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I think we need to really be careful with the "PoH spam" stuff. The only cases where that has been occurring has been a very few extremely high-damage fights where the MTT/Rapture synergy was fueling it. What I'm worried about is not so much that we will just back-to-back PoH the whole encounter, but that PoH+DA is so strong that it edges out many of our other healing options. I aaaam leaving it at that since last time I brought this up it started a whooooole kinda crazy hijack. :P

I'd like to see DA toned down too, but when I brought it up with GC on Twitter his response was that "DA is all Disc has for AE healing" so he wasn't terribly inclined to revert the buff.


Right, and with better gear and the buff to 250%, you don't even need that MTT to support DA stacking. Also, DA stacking is pretty much what a good Disc should be doing whenever SS isn't up and when you know there's incoming damage. There's no reason not to. Anyway, unless DA for PoH is tweaked somehow, PoH will remain our go-to spell for almost every situation, and this really isn't fun.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 4:41 AM PST
12/21/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Rejuvenate
Worth noting that Rapture won't benefit from MTT and other spirit procs which is a game changer in itself


My 60k rapture returns! NOOOOO
90 Blood Elf Priest
14860
My guess is it changes to this for SS PoH and SS single-target heals...

SS PoH = Average PoH Heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1+Mastery %)) * (1+Critical %)

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + Critical %) * (1 + (0.3 * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Critical %)))

If I did something stupid somewhere please call me out on it.


Underlined should be 0.5, otherwise looks right. I think it's safe to assume that this is what they are doing until there's official confirmation.

Err, edit: The second formula should be

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + 0.5 * (1 + Mastery %)) * (1 + Critical %)
You were double dipping crit.

Twistedmind:
The rapture change is what we needed. And PoH spam is still unsustainable in my time till oom calc at 15k and 20k spirit for longer than 3 minutes. You will still be able to spam PoH to prep with aegis (as you should) but it isn't unreasonable. You can win the hps meters, but it won't be any crazier than using comparative burst healing cd's that other classes bring.


Your calculator sounds way off then. If you have it posted somewhere I can take a look at it.
Edited by Maladii on 12/22/2012 9:24 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
12/22/2012 04:19 AMPosted by Ceddya
The good Disc Priests are currently 'winning' the meters by over 25% on fights with some form of burst damage, and close to 50% on certain fights,


In their own personal raids, yes, but that doesn't mean we're ahead of other healers by 50%, it just means we can suppress our co-healers.

Disc Priests only hold the #1 parse for 4/16 fights on 10N and 5/12 10H fights. Every healer is easily within 10% of our output, just not when paired with us.

The real problem is Disc in 25m is out of control, we're not even that far ahead in 10's.
90 Blood Elf Mage
11000
If this ends up being about a 15% nerf to Spirit Shell I think that's spectacular, as we pretty much remain on the same level of power as before with a slightly less garish advantage on the meters. The Rapture mana buff was certainly not needed at all either, even with the removal of short term spirit gains from it.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
In their own personal raids, yes, but that doesn't mean we're ahead of other healers by 50%, it just means we can suppress our co-healers.

Disc Priests only hold the #1 parse for 4/16 fights on 10N and 5/12 10H fights. Every healer is easily within 10% of our output, just not when paired with us.

The real problem is Disc in 25m is out of control, we're not even that far ahead in 10's.


Well, most 10-H Disc logs have them ahead by similar margins. You raise a really good point though, because the 10-man logs show that other healers have similar theoretical output as a Disc Priest.

I guess this then highlights the main issue of our absorbs being too strong given the right conditions. It's also quite obvious that the main culprits are DA and SS, which are currently doing far too good a job at preventing damage, inflating our numbers whilst suppressing the other healers.

I'm of the opinion, that for the sake of balance, the amount of absorbs Disc can put out via stacking DA or SS has to reduced. The current proposed ~10% nerf to SS is a step in the right direction (the way they did it is an argument for another day), but unless PoH/DA are tweaked somehow, you're going to be seeing similar numbers in 5.2, especially since Blizzard seems adamant about ensuring we have all the mana we need (whilst completely ignoring Holy's issues with sustainability).

Still, it's probably too early to comment, and I do hope we see further changes down the pipeline.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Also, the reality is that as long as Disc continues to have such strong absorbs in the form of SS and DA stacking, no progression focused guild is going to bring a Holy Priest.

It's not that Holy is bad, it's just that Disc is so much better. This is an issue that's often overlooked, but Holy is probably the spec that's suppressed the most by Disc.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 12:18 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
The only problem is if they reduce our absorbs too much, we won't be brought over Holy Priests. It's a pretty tight balancing act that I doubt will ever really be achieved. I think they're making some correct moves by nerfing SS.

Nerfing DA is more difficult because of PvP, same goes for Rapture because of our low survivability/longevity in that field. They'd have to only nerf PoH DA and not touch single target DA, and I'm not really sure of a solution to fixing our regen to work properly in both PvE and PvP.
90 Draenei Priest
15320
I wish they just made DA apply on every cast and nerfed it accordingly. 50% DA is fine for single target, but it doesn't feel right on PoH.

12/22/2012 12:16 PMPosted by Ceddya
It's not that Holy is bad, it's just that Disc is so much better. This is an issue that's often overlooked, but Holy is probably the spec that's suppressed the most by Disc.

I wish I could say mana was the only Holy issue at the moment. I feel like a druid without Barkskin everytime I play the spec in PvE. Meanwhile, Disc has shields, more shields and Focused Will.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The only problem is if they reduce our absorbs too much, we won't be brought over Holy Priests. It's a pretty tight balancing act that I doubt will ever really be achieved. I think they're making some correct moves by nerfing SS.

Nerfing DA is more difficult because of PvP, same goes for Rapture because of our low survivability/longevity in that field. They'd have to only nerf PoH DA and not touch single target DA, and I'm not really sure of a solution to fixing our regen to work properly in both PvE and PvP.


It's a balance that Blizzard is going to have to try harder to find. You literally see zero Holy Priest representation these days.

When it comes to nerfing DA, I'm definitely focusing on the PoH/DA synergy. That's something that needs to be toned down.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
The only problem is if they reduce our absorbs too much, we won't be brought over Holy Priests. It's a pretty tight balancing act that I doubt will ever really be achieved. I think they're making some correct moves by nerfing SS.

Nerfing DA is more difficult because of PvP, same goes for Rapture because of our low survivability/longevity in that field. They'd have to only nerf PoH DA and not touch single target DA, and I'm not really sure of a solution to fixing our regen to work properly in both PvE and PvP.


It's a balance that Blizzard is going to have to try harder to find. You literally see zero Holy Priest representation these days.

When it comes to nerfing DA, I'm definitely focusing on the PoH/DA synergy. That's something that needs to be toned down.


There are only a few ways to make holy better than disc, either overbuff it so it's OP or neuter disc's ability to put out shields. Both of which are not good ideas.

The only way that i can see holy becoming as strong as disc is to give it more mana regen so it can pump out vastly more raw throughput than a disc priest. That way it's a valid choice between shielding or outhealing the damage.
90 Pandaren Priest
7670
There are only a few ways to make holy better than disc, either overbuff it so it's OP or neuter disc's ability to put out shields. Both of which are not good ideas.

The only way that i can see holy becoming as strong as disc is to give it more mana regen so it can pump out vastly more raw throughput than a disc priest. That way it's a valid choice between shielding or outhealing the damage.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with Holy's output, and a well played Holy Priest can keep up with Disc's output on fights requiring sustained healing.

The reason you see guilds stacking Disc Priests is because of how strong our absorbs are right now. There is absolutely zero reason to bring a Holy Priest over a Disc on fights with any semblance of burst raid damage. There is nothing in Holy's toolkit that comes remotely close to competing with Disc's burst healing, and this is even before factoring in the fact that Disc can do it pre-emptively. As an added bonus, Disc also has a hidden HPS component and an additional raid CD via PW:B.

So yea, while buffing Holy's Regen is going to be a nice buff, nothing's going to change until they significantly tone down our absorbs from SS (already done) AND PoH/DA.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 1:24 PM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
11960
Err, edit: The second formula should be

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + 0.5 * (1 + Mastery %)) * (1 + Critical %)
You were double dipping crit.


No, that's how it works for a non-PoH Spirit Shell. It double-dips on Crit because your DA application depends on critting. I've been running my Spirit Shell calculator on that exact equation (the double-dipping crit one) since Beta and it is accurate. (Predicted value of GH Spirit Shell in my priest's gear: 117737; actual value, 117739. I think there's rounding that the game and I do differently.) I'm in the process of updating my SS Calculator so it can be a stand-alone web app, but if you really care to check it out, it's in the spreadsheet linked in the second paragraph here:

http://healiocentric.wordpress.com/whats-new-in-mop/mop-preview-priest-changes/6/

12/22/2012 12:32 PMPosted by Qùess
The only problem is if they reduce our absorbs too much, we won't be brought over Holy Priests. It's a pretty tight balancing act that I doubt will ever really be achieved. I think they're making some correct moves by nerfing SS.


I've had some similar sentiments expressed to me in response to my calls for toning down DA, and I still think that, well, the people who would abandon Disc entirely if it is no longer the strongest healer on the WoL meters are myopic. Regardless of where we place on the meters, Spirit Shell is insanely powerful. Even if it is not a throughput booster to use it, hell, even if it were a slight throughput reduction to cast it, it would still be insanely powerful, just perhaps a little more sane than it is now.

I happen to think Holy Priests are excellent, too, but I have the luxury of raiding with a truly amazing Holy Priest. (I feel so outclassed in my current healing team, lol.) Unfortunately right now he's stuck playing Disc in our progression since 5.1 because, well, we're down a few healers from where we'd like to be and Disc Priests do an excellent job of making up for that.

That all said, we raid in 25-player content, so I have no idea if Holy holds up as well in 10-player raids as it does in 25s. (I play my Disc Priest in 10-player raids, but since I have to maintain a Shadow spec for stupid arglebargle dailies I haven't had a chance to try Holy.)
90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
@Dayani: I'm not worried about the meters, but if Disc isn't an absorb spec, what do we have to offer that another healer can't? That's my biggest concern. In 5.0, it wasn't the meters (for me), it was the feeling that I can't fill health bars or stop them from going down fast enough, I may as well be Holy 100% of the time because Holy doesn't have as clunky of mechanics. I stuck with Disc anyway because I rerolled a Priest with the intention of playing Disc, but it was a struggle that I don't really feel like seeing happen again.

Holy can definitely hold its own in current content. I would feel comfortable being Holy for any fight I do (except maybe H Elegon, lolatonement), and I do play Holy for Tsulong and sometimes Garalon. It's just, there isn't a point on any other fights. Priests feel extremely binary to me, one spec will always be viewed as weak in comparison and be excluded.

Sorry for the TL;DR.
Edited by Qùess on 12/22/2012 5:24 PM PST
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