Buffing Disc in PTR 5.2

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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


The only problem is if they reduce our absorbs too much, we won't be brought over Holy Priests. It's a pretty tight balancing act that I doubt will ever really be achieved. I think they're making some correct moves by nerfing SS.


I've had some similar sentiments expressed to me in response to my calls for toning down DA, and I still think that, well, the people who would abandon Disc entirely if it is no longer the strongest healer on the WoL meters are myopic. Regardless of where we place on the meters, Spirit Shell is insanely powerful. Even if it is not a throughput booster to use it, hell, even if it were a slight throughput reduction to cast it, it would still be insanely powerful, just perhaps a little more sane than it is now.

I happen to think Holy Priests are excellent, too, but I have the luxury of raiding with a truly amazing Holy Priest. (I feel so outclassed in my current healing team, lol.) Unfortunately right now he's stuck playing Disc in our progression since 5.1 because, well, we're down a few healers from where we'd like to be and Disc Priests do an excellent job of making up for that.

That all said, we raid in 25-player content, so I have no idea if Holy holds up as well in 10-player raids as it does in 25s. (I play my Disc Priest in 10-player raids, but since I have to maintain a Shadow spec for stupid arglebargle dailies I haven't had a chance to try Holy.)


I really don't think that that is a major concern. If the changes that are made swing the pendulum to the other direction such that Holy is a stronger spec for most fights than Disc, priest healers that are playing at a high enough progression level for it to matter will just go Holy. The reality is that priest healers should be prepared for that, just as much as pure DPS specs and Arms/Fury warriors and Frost/Unholy DKs have to be prepared to use the best spec for a particular fight/tier. It's one of the things you have to deal with when your class has multiple specs that fill the same role.
90 Human Priest
17210
Well, the goal is to also have more than 1 viable dps spec if your class has more than one. That same logic should apply to healers too, so concerns about holy are a good thing to bring up. Personally, I think spirit of redemption should get a cheat death treatment: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714#2 . That would go a long way for dealing with mana concerns (compared to disc), giving it a niche (martyr and promoting martyrdom/masochism play), and accenting it's specialty (burst recovery).
Edited by Twistedmind on 12/22/2012 6:31 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
11700
Priests feel extremely binary to me, one spec will always be viewed as weak in comparison and be excluded.

Sorry for the TL;DR.


Oh please! If you've seen my blog enough to know you don't follow my graphs, you know that I am the poster child of TL;DR! No apologies necessary :D

And yeah I agree with you about priests being binary (I like that description); since it is so easy to "just respec" into the spec with higher perceived utility, many priests will feel pressured to play the Priest Flavour of the Month as opposed to what they enjoy. I still think it's myopic of people to do it, but I guess nothing can be done about that.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Just reiterating that the Spirit Shell NERF makes mastery a totally worthless stat with some rather extreme repercussions on the rest of the spec due to the necessary switch to crit or haste. My actual reasoning or numbers can be found on page 2 of this thread or on Twistedmind's thread
8 Dwarf Priest
0
The possibility of being required to pick up Solace just to keep instant Holy Fire is abhorrent. That really seems like retrograde design (by FAAAR the nicest way I could put it!) to reduce talent options for a specific playstyle. Its a clear step toward diminishing quality of life gameplay. Even if it is a relatively minor one, its a wholly unnecessary. Why even do it?

If it isn't broken, don't "fix" it. Solace might totally need changing, by itself, but there's no point whatsoever to making Solace mandatory just to keep Holy Fire instant.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
The possibility of being required to pick up Solace just to keep instant Holy Fire is abhorrent. That really seems like retrograde design (by FAAAR the nicest way I could put it!) to reduce talent options for a specific playstyle. Its a clear step toward diminishing quality of life gameplay. Even if it is a relatively minor one, its a wholly unnecessary. Why even do it?

If it isn't broken, don't "fix" it. Solace might totally need changing, by itself, but there's no point whatsoever to making Solace mandatory just to keep Holy Fire instant.


While I more or less agree, keep in mind that using the default Holy fire is still a valid choice, the nerf from losing it is relatively small so no one is really forced to switch. Especially consider that instant holy fire eats the first potential smite cast buffed by glyph of smite, so there is actually a small benefit to the non instant version during smitespam. Not as much as you lose but it's not as big a loss as it at first appears.

They are also giving us a 40yard range glyph in place of losing the instant glyph, which is a huge QoL improvement for some fights. At least this change has a bit of a silver lining to it.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/23/2012 6:05 AM PST
90 Human Priest
11345
40 yard glyph needs to include penance to be useful.
90 Goblin Priest
6695
12/22/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Sotanaht
Just reiterating that the Spirit Shell NERF makes mastery a totally worthless stat with some rather extreme repercussions on the rest of the spec due to the necessary switch to crit or haste. My actual reasoning or numbers can be found on page 2 of this thread or on Twistedmind's thread


Why would the Spirit Shell nerf make mastery a worthless stat? Wouldn't it still affect our regular shields?
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
12/23/2012 11:43 AMPosted by Goldhorder
Just reiterating that the Spirit Shell NERF makes mastery a totally worthless stat with some rather extreme repercussions on the rest of the spec due to the necessary switch to crit or haste. My actual reasoning or numbers can be found on page 2 of this thread or on Twistedmind's thread


Why would the Spirit Shell nerf make mastery a worthless stat? Wouldn't it still affect our regular shields?


Spirit shell is such a big part of our healing that if we want to get it higher we need to go to crit. It won't make it bad, just worth less than crit or haste.
90 Human Priest
17210
Well, I'm trying to figure out some specifics on our new secondary stat weights. There are a good number of things to consider when looking at it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714?page=4#76

Ultimately, this will probably come down to playstyle more than what's mathematically the highest hps. If priest secondary stats had tons of synergy, it would be more clear cut. But mastery affects a very small range of spells, and scales super fast point per point. Crit is variable, hard to figure out, and on most spells is the only thing triggering said mastery. Haste does all sorts of weird things, but we need to account for the new number of 1.5 sec spells we have, on top of accounting for spirit, rapture, and inner focus usage.

It's early to say, but I'm tenatively looking at doing 40% mastery, and 11.11% haste if I can.
(4717 haste, 4800 mastery, 7320+4717 spirit, and the rest crit; hopefully able to gem for int)
90 Blood Elf Priest
12760
Crit is for build 2 aka/attonement that is not the true Disc build which is mastery. Mastery is supposed to be absorbs damage. They tend to forget that. And if they take SS away from our healing output, we will be useless to most raids. We may just as well spam our Power Word: Shield and stand there as we go OOM.

I love playing Disc, I hate holy, I hate Shadow and I hate the attonement build, please dont force me into playing something I dont want to, to be able to raid.
90 Human Priest
17210
Always keep in mind spirit shell has a hard cap of 60% of your hp. I'm not in BiS gear yet by any means, but I'm already juggling around that hard cap in my gear from PoH heals. For single target heals, forget about it. 1 cast to cap. The change they are making is most likely a band aid over the way Spirit Shell scales as well as addressing the growing concern that our absorbs are out of line. If it were to remain in its current form, the mark of playing disc effectively might have some silly play like rolling divine aegis, casting 5 spirit shell poh's, and cancelling the buff early so you can refresh the initial divine aegis or something.
Edited by Twistedmind on 12/23/2012 11:03 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
It's sloppy, plain and simple.

Mastery that doesn't affect the absorb we now use most often, except indirectly on our only AoE heal? How does that even make any sort of sense conceptually? To those savvy enough to argue about it on the forums sure, the mechanics look sound. But for the majority of the player base... how are they going to reconcile a mastery that largely doesn't help them in what their spec is supposedly dedicated to do?

The DA on top of PoH, which was originally a kludge due to low AoE healing at the beginning of Cataclysm, is becoming a super-high-tech crutch they keep souping up more and more rather than fixing the fact that we only have one leg.

This change significantly nerfs Spirit Shell for anything other than PoH. It was actually very useful for spike tank damage, which nobody was not really an issue. Not anymore. And for what? It's not going to fix the Spirit Shell/PoH spam issue, just slow it down as gear scales up. Again, it's a sloppy solution with sweeping collateral damage. Rather they should be looking at the point value, or even base value, of mastery or the spellpower coefficient of Spirit Shell in the first place.

The Rapture change also severely overbudgets static spirit trinkets in favor of everything else for the spec. MTT be damned, this will limit our gear options, most especially in the lower gear tiers. The spirit curve was already punishing enough, this will make it worse.

The Solace change seems benign, we'll see how that pushes out. I do wish they'd just make it modify Holy Fire rather than replace it, the animation for PW:Solace is underwhelming at best when compared with the signature Holy Fire graphic.

All in all, a big loss for Disc, and not just because "meters". This is a huge step back in any sort of progressive larger fight to get the spec into any sort of coherency.
90 Human Paladin
15450
If it were to remain in its current form, the mark of playing disc effectively might have some silly play like rolling divine aegis, casting 5 spirit shell poh's, and cancelling the buff early so you can refresh the initial divine aegis or something.


I found this funny because this is what I suggested our disc priest do for Unseen Strike on heroic Bladelord. Lets say the results were amazing.
Disc will never be balanced relative to the other healng classes due to how effective proactive healing is. The spec will either be underpowered or overpowered, and that line is razor thin.

Absorbs (and the Disc spec itself) need a total overhaul.
90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/24/2012 11:34 PMPosted by Oungan
Disc will never be balanced relative to the other healng classes due to how effective proactive healing is. The spec will either be underpowered or overpowered, and that line is razor thin.


No? Difficult tasks are not impossible, they are only difficult. It's perfectly possible to make Discipline absorbs on somewhat equal footing with pure healing from other specs from a pure output standpoint. It's just difficult.

I don't think it's possible to do it with their current approach though. Throwing in band-aids and poorly thought out fixes to circumvent or hide issues is not a good approach. This is what the PoH buff accomplished. This is what the DA buff accomplished. This is what the 5.2 SS change will accomplish. Someone just needs to steal the band-aid box.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Just reiterating that the Spirit Shell NERF makes mastery a totally worthless stat with some rather extreme repercussions on the rest of the spec due to the necessary switch to crit or haste. My actual reasoning or numbers can be found on page 2 of this thread or on Twistedmind's thread


Why would the Spirit Shell nerf make mastery a worthless stat? Wouldn't it still affect our regular shields?


Yeah it will affect shields, but you don't stack a stat that is only good for 10% of your overall healing, and that's being generous.

Crit will be more per-point than mastery for spirit shell, provides stronger overall bonuses to PoH, allows for more absorption from Greater Heal, and improves attonement. Or put another way, every spell except PWS INCLUDING spirit shell will benefit more strongly from crit, so there is no point at all in taking mastery when crit does it's job better. Haste is actually even better than crit if you can afford it.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/25/2012 7:15 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12760
What people forget is a Discipline priest was made for was to absorb damage or prevent damage. Spirit Shell was our first AOE absorb that would blanket a large portion of the raid without running out of mana.

By nerfing SS with mastery they have taken our only reason why we chose Discipline priest to begin with. Yes, I will continue being Discipline Priest but with this nerf I am afraid nobody will want a disc priest again in a raid. We will go way back down in the "preferred" list of healers.

This is truely a sad day for us.
90 Pandaren Priest
12725
By nerfing SS with mastery they have taken our only reason why we chose Discipline priest to begin with. Yes, I will continue being Discipline Priest but with this nerf I am afraid nobody will want a disc priest again in a raid. We will go way back down in the "preferred" list of healers.


That is a bit of an overreaction. I would say there are three AoE damage situations where SS comes into play. They are as follows...

1. Preemptively shield with SS before a big burst of damage.

2. Preemptively shield with SS before a short period of intense AoE damage.

3. Use SS to boost throughput during consistent AoE damage.

An excellent example of situation 1 is unseen strike on Blade Lord. Something like force and verve on Vizier falls into situation 2. Garalon is probably the best example of situation 3.

For me personally I already reached a point where I could get close to the SS cap in situation 1 on two groups of players with no other CD's paired with it. Pairing a CD with it meant I could cap but I would also lose some healing by going over it. The 5.2 change is going to mean pairing a CD with SS lets me cap but without the loss of any healing (doesn't apply to 25m). Without pairing another CD with it I won't cap but it's still doing considerable absorption.

Situation 2 and 3 will be different. The cap isn't a concern in either case. The only difference here in 5.2 is I will lose some throughput on SS. I believe it's about 15%.

So basically situation 1 doesn't change much. The difference is I have less throughput after the shields break. This isn't really all that relevant because in most situations the huge chunk SS takes out makes the mechanic close to trivial. The same applies to situation 2. In situation 3 my throughput takes a hit but it's not exactly going to make me useless.

It's not really a spec breaking nerf. It's just a slight throughput nerf to the burst healing of the spec (which was warranted, but it shouldn't be done in this way....).
90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
What people forget is a Discipline priest was made for was to absorb damage or prevent damage. Spirit Shell was our first AOE absorb that would blanket a large portion of the raid without running out of mana.

By nerfing SS with mastery they have taken our only reason why we chose Discipline priest to begin with. Yes, I will continue being Discipline Priest but with this nerf I am afraid nobody will want a disc priest again in a raid. We will go way back down in the "preferred" list of healers.

This is truely a sad day for us.


You missed the fact that rapture is getting godmode'd. Stacking spirit, you may be able to use PoH without SS to get something that works much like SS does now. Or combine the DA from PoH and SS more easily without eating a chunk of mana.

Hell, depending on the amount of spirit available in tier 15, we might be able to spread around some PWS on top of PoH DA and PoH SS.
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