Warrior Stat Scaling

100 Human Warrior
14715
So I got bored yesterday, and did a sim on the BiS profiles for a bunch of melee specs. I had known Arms' scaling was in a bad place, I wanted to see just how bad. I also simmed Fury as a comparison. Anyway, here were the numbers I got:

Arms:
Str: 2.58
Crit: 1.56
Haste: .98
Mastery: .75

Fury:
Str: 3.34
Crit: 3.1
Haste: .9
Mastery: 1.79

Frost 2h:
Str: 3.14
Crit: 1.41
Haste: 1.59
Mastery: 1.14

Frost 1h:
Str: 3.69
Crit: 1.31
Haste: 1.58
Mastery: 1.73

Feral:
Agi: 4.72
Crit: 1.64
Haste: 1.53
Mastery: 1.67

Retribution:
Str: 3.52
Crit: 1.52
Haste: 1.88
Mastery: 1.54

Assassination:
Agi: 4.83
Crit: 1.74
Haste: 1.83
Mastery: 2.06

Enhance:
Agi: 4.52
Crit: 1.63
Haste: 1.85
Mastery: 1.97

So, looking at all of these in one place, there's a couple of very real concerns:
1) Arms Str scaling is actually the lowest primary stat scale for any of the classes I simmed. I am willing to accept better weapon damage scaling can make up for this (I really should have simmed that value, but honestly didn't think about it at the time), but if that is the case then the weapon damage scaling cannot be said to make up for any of the secondaries. You simply don't get enough of it to make up that difference.

2) Fury's crit scaling is a huge outlier, 50% ahead of any other spec's scaling with their best attribute. Fury needs to have their reliance on crit reduced drastically. It can lose 33% of its value, and still be ahead of most other specs in terms of its value. This is something that needs to be looked at.

3) Both Fury and Arms have absolutely horrible haste scaling. None of the other specs come close, almost all are double. Something as simple as a port of Sanctity of Battle would help us with this drastically. In the current design, Haste generating more white attacks and rage simply is not enough. Rage does not fill the role of a primary resource, and honestly it never has, not in the same way other class's resources do.

4) Arms' Mastery is even worse than haste. Arms' Mastery Scaling is worse than the scaling of any stat of any spec I simmed. This needs a redesign if you ever want it to be more than wasted rating on gear.

5) Arms' Crit, its best scaling secondary, is middle of the road at best when compared to other specs' scaling. For the majority of the specs simmed, Arms' crit is worse than a secondary or even tertiary stat. You could no joke double Arms values of Haste and Mastery, leave crit completely untouched, and we would still be within the range of normal for other specs. This is bad.

Anyway, yes, these numbers are with BiS and aren't relevant to most people (including myself). Arms does great at the low end of gear, the problem is with the poor scaling it falls further and further behind. Also, today's BiS is most likely 5.2's normal mode gear, which means it will quickly become relevant to a much larger number of people. I just hope something can be done to bring our scaling into line by then.

tl;dr: Fury's crit value is way too high. All Warriors hate haste, and Arms' mastery sucks. These are objective comparisons in relation to the scaling other specs get.
Edited by Secondwind on 12/23/2012 12:52 PM PST
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100 Human Warrior
14715
Went ahead and ran some more specs through just cause. Included some range this time, and grabbed WW who I had forgotten about before:

Windwalker
Agi: 3.35
Crit: 1.43
Haste: 1.57
Mastery: .63

Hey we finally found a stat as bad as Arms' mastery. Lucky for WW they're already getting a redesigned mastery for 5.2 that looks pretty good.

Affliction:
Int: 4.82
Crit: 1.94
Haste: 2.25
Mastery: 2.81

Balance:
Int: 4.12
Crit: 2.02
Haste: 1.88
Mastery: 1.79

Shadow:
Int: 4.08
Crit: 1.76
Haste: 1.75
Mastery: 1.66

So far it's still looking like the general pattern is Primary Stat worth between 3 and 4, with most secondaries falling between 1.5 and 2 with only a few outliers.

Edit: Oh and Fire's scaling even post nerf is ridiculous
Int: 4.74
Crit: 2.99
Haste: 2.38
Mastery: 2.34

I'll do the hunter specs too, but I have no idea what their best spec is so we'll get all 3.

Marks:
Agi: 3.92
Crit: 1.53
Haste: 1.22
Mastery: .97

Survival:
Agi: 4.80
Crit: 1.53
Haste: 1.17
Mastery: .89

Looks like Marks and Surv are having some problems similar to Arms. Not quite as bad (they at least have two stats over a 1.0), but it's close.

BM:
Agi: 4.83
Crit: 1.59
Haste: 1.35
Mastery: 1.61
Edited by Secondwind on 12/23/2012 11:50 AM PST
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100 Orc Warrior
12175
LOL @ Fire's stat weights. Dude, no wonder they had to get nerfed. If they were already as strong as they were, then they would have been insane beyond belief next tier.

But back on point: it doesn't seem good that Arms' best stat, in virtually all cases, is worse than everyone else's best stats. And our worst stats are absolutely abysmal compared to most others.

Also, it looks like all of the masteries that give a random chance to proc an extra autoattack are universally terrible. I think that's probably a good sign that Blizzard needs to do something with that type of mastery.
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100 Human Warrior
14715
LOL @ Fire's stat weights. Dude, no wonder they had to get nerfed. If they were already as strong as they were, then they would have been insane beyond belief next tier.

But back on point: it doesn't seem good that Arms' best stat, in virtually all cases, is worse than everyone else's best stats. And our worst stats are absolutely abysmal compared to most others.


Our best stat is in fact worse than the worst stat for a lot of classes.

Basically almost all of our dps is loaded into weapon damage. This contributes to us hitting so hard in PVP. Extra stats from PVE gear? We don't care. Extra stats from raid buffs? We don't care. We deal basically the same damage in a solo/small group environment with lower gear as we do in a raid with all buffs. If they fixed our scaling, they could probably even afford to reduce the damage on some of our abilities and still have us come out ahead.

Also, it looks like all of the masteries that give a random chance to proc an extra autoattack are universally terrible. I think that's probably a good sign that Blizzard needs to do something with that type of mastery.


Yeah I don't know what every spec's mastery does, but I know MM has a similar mastery to ours and it seems they're suffering as well.

Out of curiosity what is WW's current mastery? Because seriously that showed up as even worse than ours, that is a real achievement.
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100 Human Warlock
20040
12/23/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Secondwind
Anyway, yes, these numbers are with BiS and aren't relevant to most people (including myself).

Yes, they're completely relevant; heroic gear from this tier isn't going to be much better than normal gear next tier (if it even is), and probably worse than LFR gear the tier after.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9155
You didn't sim DW frost, but they scale much better with mastery than 2H and still scale fine with haste / weapon damage / crit - which has lead most of us over at the DK forum to assume that 2H will fall out of favor (well, it's already behind DW but still close) soon, the gap will be insurmountable in time without changes.

Unholy is, correctly, not worth simming with the major changes down the pipeline, but I half expect it to be superior to frost on single target fights come next patch.

As someone who enjoyed leveling a warrior as arms, with cataclysm's rythmic rotation, I hope the spec gets sorted out.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9155

Out of curiosity what is WW's current mastery? Because seriously that showed up as even worse than ours, that is a real achievement.


http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115636/mastery-combo-breaker

Quite terrible for a spec that already struggles with a GCD cap. They're keeping it around next patch, but not as the mastery. Just a flat %.
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100 Human Warrior
14715
12/23/2012 12:30 PMPosted by Solution
You didn't sim DW frost, but they scale much better with mastery than 2H and still scale fine with haste / weapon damage / crit - which has lead most of us over at the DK forum to assume that 2H will fall out of favor (well, it's already behind DW but still close) soon, the gap will be insurmountable in time without changes.


I wasn't aware of that. I just did a quick google to see which version was currently the best.

I was originally just simming the specs that were performing best, to get a comparison to what is normal for other classes. I've just been gradually simming more as I have the time. I'll update 1h frost in soon.

12/23/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Serinicas
Yes, they're completely relevant; heroic gear from this tier isn't going to be much better than normal gear next tier (if it even is), and probably worse than LFR gear the tier after.


I actually went on to say that in the next sentence after what you quoted:

Also, today's BiS is most likely 5.2's normal mode gear, which means it will quickly become relevant to a much larger number of people. I just hope something can be done to bring our scaling into line by then.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
Crit for Fire is better than Str for Arms? That's just so wrong.

4) Arms' Mastery is even worse than haste. Arms' Mastery Scaling is worse than the scaling of any stat of any spec I simmed. This needs a redesign if you ever want it to be more than wasted rating on gear.


It's funny that Arms mastery was nerfed at the beginning of MoP lol. Now it's literally the worst stat in the game.
Edited by Faust on 12/23/2012 1:20 PM PST
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100 Human Warrior
14715
Crit for Fire is better than Str for Arms? That's just so wrong.

4) Arms' Mastery is even worse than haste. Arms' Mastery Scaling is worse than the scaling of any stat of any spec I simmed. This needs a redesign if you ever want it to be more than wasted rating on gear.


It's funny that Arms mastery was nerfed at the beginning of MoP lol. Now it's literally the worst stat in the game.


My guess is pre-nerf getting a crit with a mastery proc that critted was too much burst for PVP. I don't know whose idea it was to give an already bursty spec a more bursty mastery, but it was a bad idea.
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90 Troll Hunter
11450
The way this game is designed, Blizzard is probably worried that any scaling changes they make to Arms is going to unbalance PVP.

Still, at least Arms is marginally playable in PVE. Unlike Unholy or Marks.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
The way this game is designed, Blizzard is probably worried that any scaling changes they make to Arms is going to unbalance PVP.

Still, at least Arms is marginally playable in PVE. Unlike Unholy or Marks.


Unholy is pretty much just as good as frost and maybe even better on some fights. This is a PvE game and having specs there is no excuse for a spec to scale so badly especially when you can tweak where damage will fall on the scaling curve with flat nerf/buffs.
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90 Troll Hunter
11450

Unholy is pretty much just as good as frost and maybe even better on some fights.

I do think Arms needs some work done on its scaling, but Unholy is not even remotely close to Frost if you look at raidbots data.
Edited by Melhunt on 12/23/2012 1:49 PM PST
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100 Human Warrior
14715
The way this game is designed, Blizzard is probably worried that any scaling changes they make to Arms is going to unbalance PVP.

Still, at least Arms is marginally playable in PVE. Unlike Unholy or Marks.


But that's the thing, if they got our scaling working right, then they could likely even reduce PVP damage as part of doing so. The reason we do so much damage in PVP is because we don't scale well with the buffs/secondary stats that are more prevalent on PVE gear. Make us scale better with those things and numbers could be tweaked such that we have lower damage in PVP and better damage in PVE at the same time.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
12/23/2012 01:49 PMPosted by Melhunt
I do think Arms needs some work done on its scaling, but Unholy is not even remotely close to Frost if you look at raidbots data.


Yes it is, you can ask any experienced dk, Unholy is probably less then 5% away from Frost is terms of actually dps and does well on extended execute fights. The problems is that it has severe mechanical shortcoming that frost doesn't.

It's very similar to how Fury was only slightly behind Arms in 4.3, but raidbots showed it as being terrible because nobody was playing the spec, due to part to Arms being mechanically superior in every way except for burst.
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100 Human Warlock
20040
12/23/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Secondwind
I actually went on to say that in the next sentence after what you quoted:

Ah, so you did; my mistake.

Seems like a pointless statement to make in that case, but ok. =P
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100 Human Warrior
14715
12/23/2012 02:19 PMPosted by Serinicas
I actually went on to say that in the next sentence after what you quoted:

Ah, so you did; my mistake.

Seems like a pointless statement to make in that case, but ok. =P


I was saying it to preempt anyone saying "Who cares about BiS, only .1% of the population is there" by pointing out, yes that is true, but when 5.2 rolls around that's where the majority will be.
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100 Human Warrior
10325
Oh... oh my. I knew Arms' mastery was pretty bad but I at least thought it was better than freakin' Haste.

Arms needs a major redesign for PvE, and I think bleeds and short-term procs are where you can start to touch up without having too much of an effect on PvP.

Haste boosting bleed effects, the Mastery proc giving stacks of TfB or a proc for crit chance or a stacking flat damage proc or something. Something. =/
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740

Unholy is pretty much just as good as frost and maybe even better on some fights.

I do think Arms needs some work done on its scaling, but Unholy is not even remotely close to Frost if you look at raidbots data.


Incorrect. Simc has an improper action list, concerning diseases, and isnt using the correct BiS trinket. Unholy is about 1% behind frost.
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100 Pandaren Warrior
17050
Oh... oh my. I knew Arms' mastery was pretty bad but I at least thought it was better than freakin' Haste.

Arms needs a major redesign for PvE, and I think bleeds and short-term procs are where you can start to touch up without having too much of an effect on PvP.

Haste boosting bleed effects, the Mastery proc giving stacks of TfB or a proc for crit chance or a stacking flat damage proc or something. Something. =/


Well we're on a good start so far with the change for Taste for Blood (Mortal Strike Builds 2 Charges of it, can store up to a max of 5). However I'm afraid this might result in pooling Overpower in PVP, or just flat out ignoring it over Slam (Which is also getting a damage buff) in PVE whenever possible.

Blizard started with the correct approach at Haste by making Sudden Death proc only off of auto attacks, but it's still not enough.
Edited by Curoar on 12/24/2012 5:50 AM PST
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