My Ideas for Ret Changes

90 Human Paladin
8935
I was thinking the other day about some ways ret could be improved in pvp that wouldn't affect pve all too much, but some may or may not.

1. Change Hand of Freedom to cost holy power and last according to the amount of holy power consumed. Possibly make it undispellable as well.

2. Remove Sanctified Wrath from the talent choices and build it into each spec. However, take away the 50% cooldown reduction on the certain moves etc. but make Avenging Wrath have a 1 minute less cd and change the 4 piece set bonus for ret pve. OR keep the talent but make it reduce Avenging Wrath's cd by 1 minute as well.

3. Add a new talent in place of Sanctified Wrath that when you use a move at 3 holy power it gives you one in return and change the 4 piece set bonus for holy pvp I also feel like this would fit in more with the talent choices of that tier as well.

4. Make Holy Avenger a 1 minute cd, it's too weak in pve right now and in pvp its 18 seconds of decent damage then 2 minutes of waiting for a cd to fall off.

5. Buff our sustained damage please, it doesn't make much sense to me how every other melee has at least decent sustained damage without having to spec specifically for it. (change from Holy Avenger to Divine Purpose) I also see many complaints about Ret's damage being sub-par to other classes.

Feel free to elaborate or make some of your own changes, also provide feedback i won't be offended.
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90 Human Paladin
7175
Implementing these changes would make us too powerful. I vote for making Divine Purpose baseline to boost our sustained dps and toning down the 75 tier talents to compensate. Our issue in PvP lies in our susceptibility to CC and our slightly underpar offheals. Slightly buff WoG and FoL and allow us to hard cast a couple more FoL's before we go oom should do the trick. Increasing our burst capacity is not the right answer.
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90 Human Death Knight
4215
12/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Karod
5. Buff our sustained damage please, it doesn't make much sense to me how every other melee has at least decent sustained damage without having to spec specifically for it. (change from Holy Avenger to Divine Purpose) I also see many complaints about Ret's damage being sub-par to other classes.


IMO this is the main thing that needs to be done. Ret's are not viable in things like RBG's because without their cools they hit like pillows. A class shouldn't be so cooldown based
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7060
We do hit like pillows without cool downs lolol.
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90 Human Paladin
8935
Another one I thought of today for a talent in the level 75 tier in place of SW was to make our holy power generating moves generate 2 charges of holy power when we critically hit with them. While I do see a problem it could have with holy paladins and holy shock, it could act as another way to get holy power rather than a glyph or using divine light or flash on a specific target.

I also think they could make the whole level 75 talent tier baseline but nerd them a bit (like taking away the 30% damage increase on HA and making DP only have a 10/15% chance to proc and SW causing wings to last half as long or have a 1 min shorter cd, without the 50% cd reduction on certain moves) and replace them with talents that generate extra holy power like the one I mentioned here and in my first post. I also think each of the level 90 talents should generate holy power, LH every time it deals damage, ES once on use and again on the final hit, HP on use.

Also, I'm not saying they should implement all of these, just throwing out some ideas.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
1. Would be kind of counter productive if you were using PoJ, remove a slow while simultaneously slowing yourself... Plus once you get to the target you would have less HP to actually do things.

2/3. Just seems like a random change for the sake of changing things. All you're suggesting is for us to have AW baseline 2m CD with a duration that can always be synced with GoAK, which is just a crazy burst buff. Consider ATM that all 3 talents are within about 1% of eachother on overall damage, so making one baseline then adding something new is like letting you pick 2 talents. This wouldn't just bring us on par with the top specs, it would make us more of an outlier than any spec has been since BC. Also, the suggested replacement for SW sounds like just a lame version of DP.

4. HA is mostly fine in PvE. It's within 1% of the other talents. I'd say the only real problem it has is the fact that with the 4p t14 it lacks a distinguished that would differentiate it from SW. It's something I'd kind of like to see them change up, but a flat 1m CD reduction with no other changes would put it leaps and bounds ahead of every other talent that tier.

5. This is one point I agree with. It really sucks to start out the fight with insane damage and then slowly crawl down the meters as the fight drags on. We really only need a little bit more though to bring us on par. I'd even be happy with the cata bandaid of just buff censure.

I'm not really sure how you thought these suggestions would be PvE neutral in any way.
Edited by Darthelm on 12/30/2012 10:18 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8935
Main difference I was going for with the replacement SW talent was that it would be similar to divine purpose but not RNG, to be a more dependable holy power 'return' if you look at divine purpose as that.

I see your point with the reducing the cd on HA, whenever I had it in PvE it seemed a lot more behind than divine purpose but it may just be my play style, but it could be changed to not have the 30% damage/healing increase. With #2 I forgot to put in the part where it's duration wouldn't be increased if the cd was shortened, my bad. Of course if they even decide to think about any changes like this for more than a second there would be balancing going on, and according to some of my PvE ret-playing friends, ret is not doing very well there and they have said it needed a big boost, must have thought it was bigger than you, with your PvE experience (I hope) have seen first hand.

I also see a problem with my second post as causing the level 90 tier talents to generate holy power they would be affected by HA and that would be a little much.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
Honestly, all we need is -

1. Increase the healing of WoG (after all it costs 3HP which takes away from our damage).
/ also shouldn't affect pve very much. Plus we now can't use LoH in rbgs and let's face it, bubble is on 2 long of a cool down considering its shatterable/dispellable
So extra power to WoG would really help our survivability out.

2. Increase duration of inquisition to 1min.
/ with our low damage and survivability, between WoGing ourselves to stay alive, using our main damage ability AND keeping inquisition up on a small duration.. Our sustained is.. Well.. Crap. Increasing the duration will increase our sustained but not by to much that it'll be OP.

3. A slight increase in damage for TV,
/ it really doesn't hit that hard especially considering the 3HP cost.. Kinda sad that our HP building abilities do the same amount of damage as our 'resource using ability' does. It's really just another average button in our rotation which isn't always used considering the amount we have to spend on keeping ourselves alive and keeping inquisition up.

4. Slight increase to censure. <---- nuff said, good for sustained.
/ prefer 1/2/3 but it would help, maybe leave TV as is and buff censure instead?

Other than that, with selfless healer (even tho it's copped it hard) and clemency.. I'm happy.. Our rotation IS 100x smoother than in cata.. And our burst is still competitive. It's just our sustained damage and survivabilty is below average..
I don't want to be OP, I'm more than happy to have average utility, average burst, average damage and average survivability but I think it's crap that we are either average or below average.
That's my thoughts and my 2cents worth.
Edited by Daemonism on 12/31/2012 1:26 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9235
Main difference I was going for with the replacement SW talent was that it would be similar to divine purpose but not RNG, to be a more dependable holy power 'return' if you look at divine purpose as that.

I see your point with the reducing the cd on HA, whenever I had it in PvE it seemed a lot more behind than divine purpose but it may just be my play style, but it could be changed to not have the 30% damage/healing increase. With #2 I forgot to put in the part where it's duration wouldn't be increased if the cd was shortened, my bad. Of course if they even decide to think about any changes like this for more than a second there would be balancing going on, and according to some of my PvE ret-playing friends, ret is not doing very well there and they have said it needed a big boost, must have thought it was bigger than you, with your PvE experience (I hope) have seen first hand.

I also see a problem with my second post as causing the level 90 tier talents to generate holy power they would be affected by HA and that would be a little much.


What your friends are seeing may just be a gear issue. Ret is fairly bad at low gear levels but jumps up tremendously as you get more. Weapon damage is probably the biggest factor, since even tiny weapon damage increases are massive dps boosts. Just to give you an idea, heroic starshatter with 1 vp upgrade beats out my double upgraded sha axe with the +500 str gem just because wdps is just that good. The 2nd factor is the fact that at around ilv 489, you get enough strength on your gear passively that haste becomes more valuable to gem for, letting you get even more of a great stat.

In general, once you get up to a comfortable gear level, your sustained is at least on par, if even if it's never tops. Plus we shine in different areas such as burst and any cleave AoE situation. (both of our main AoE attacks become worth using at 2 targets, then we have 2 AoE glyphs and a talent available to boost us even more.) I wouldn't complain if they gave us like a 1-5% buff, but I'm not about to lose a raid spot or not be able to kill heroic progression if they left everything as is.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
Pvp > pve :)
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Some "small changes":

1. Being able to use Divine Protection while cc'd.

2. Hand of Freedom breaking stuns again (only after every 30-60s, to not make Clemency even better than it already is) and/or a new ability to break fears (could even be a new emancipate - with a certain cooldown; 30-45s maybe?).

3. Less "cast" time for Hammer of Wrath.

4. More damage on tier 90 talents. Considering their cooldowns are just ridiculous how ES hits for so low outside cds (Holy Prism could also generates HP - maintaining its damage/heal).

5. WoG and specially FoL should heal for way more. Healing 20k with FoL and 25k with WoG its just completely stupid to begin with, thanks to 30% buff to Battle Fatigue. FoL could just have its mana resource lowered. Spriests heals for way more with their flash heal which just costs 17k of mana (from a 300k mana pool; 5.9%), while our flash of light costs 22k (or almost 38%).

6. Having more symmetrical cds/uptimes in our abilities (a buff to them to prevent us losing 50% of its uptime just because someone popped a 'spam-able' defensive cd/general ccs is also welcome). Suggestion: 3min CDs for GoAK (since the 20% strenght in the end of the day will just be around of what the PvP trinket offers while having a 5x lower cooldown), 3min to AW which would last 30s (40 or 45 with SW) and ~30s to HA as well (nerf to 3min CD too). I'm not completely sure if this would make us OP, but it the HoF/Emancipate changes doesnt happen, its necessary to keep our buffs uptime in a good place, considering how visible we are with the red wings and a big bright sword on our hands.

7. Selfless Heal could cast a buff if used on a friendly target other than yourself and if used with 3 stacks. The buff could be a 10s heal over time that heals 2x what you healed on the target (which itself would be 2x what you would heal normally) on yourself. SS should be a normal shield again, like Mage' ice barrier, that would scale with strenght or AP for ret/prot. Since I could see everyone just using Eternal Flame after its buff in 5.2 (although it is needed).

8. Inquisition buff, 2x its uptime from HP (its just not fun/annoying to keep it up) and maybe even a bigger critic buff (15%?).

9. Lower the disadvantages from using Divine Shield and Hand of Protection. We are not in TBC anymore.

10. Makes some more passive RNG abilities for some dynamic changes in our rotations, only having art of war resetting Exo' cds its boring. Divine Purpose could be baseline (with a lower chance to proc ~10-15%). Mostly to help our sustained DPS and make the class more fun to play, considering how static our rotation is.
Edited by Syros on 12/31/2012 10:29 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8935
For PvP they could also cause our mastery not to double dip form resil, I personally hate relying on crits to deal enough pressure, that is if they haven't already.
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90 Human Paladin
3020
I think the main issue with Inquisition being 1 minute is that you would have Feral Kitties and Rogues whining how they have to spend 5 CP to have a 40 sec duration while we only spend 3 HoPo to get a minute buff. While I personally would love the QoL change even in PvE perspective (and definitely in PvP), I think Rogues and Kitties would also have to be buffed with theirs accordingly. That's just my opinion, though.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6645
Well then an increase to 45 seconds on that account would be more than reasonable then..
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90 Human Paladin
12515
a break fear/incapacitate on a 1 minute CD would be all i want, i mean cmon....were suppose to be stead fast paladins not pansies.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7020
Problem is, you would break PvE ret. PvP is never balanced, just the nature of the beast, but PvE can be.

Instead of trying to come up with ways to change ret that wouldn't effect PvE, why not have dual use skills? Or even, expand the current useless glyph system to change the effect of skills in a PvP environment that wouldn't be able to be used in a PvE.

We already have a few with Dazing Shield and Blinding Light and the like. Looking at the problem in a direct nature will just effect the PvE side of the game negatively while trying to balance the PvP, which is exactly what blizzard is not doing. Letting the PvP players get shafted in favor of the PvE (which I personally am, MORE than ok with), but there IS a solution. Its up to the PvP community to actually figure that out and work with blizz.

Just a thought. Now give arms back its 5 stack please, freakn PvP screwing with my perfectly good PvE.
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58 Tauren Death Knight
0
Ret mechanically is pretty solid right now, it mostly could just use some small tweaks here and there to put it in a good spot for PvP without making it blatantly overpowered. Simply tweaking some numbers would be adequate, but there are some small quality of life improvements that could be done as well.

A few ideas I have had as far as PvP Ret goes that would impact PvE and general Ret mechanics minimally:

1) Change Censure so it is applied by all seals and proceed to tune the Seal damage accordingly. This, admittedly, will end up impacting PvE a bit, but in a good way. It makes Seal of Righteousness more useful than it currently is (it currently takes too many targets to make this AoE seal useful) and makes switching to Justice and Insight a bit less of a crippling damage loss considering how low Ret's damage seems to be in PvP outside of cooldowns. Ideally, it should be that you want to use Truth to burst down someone, Justice to control someone, and Insight as a defense mechanism.

2) The next change ties directly with the first one; make Seal of Insight a more effective defensive seal than it currently is for Ret. Right now, it isn't ideal because of how slow two handers are, thus making the incoming heals for this seal rather insufficient considering how much damage is lost switching to it.

A specific idea I had in regards to this is instead of making the heals proc individually off each melee swing, have a HoT be applied (and refreshed) on each successful melee attack. This would successfully increase our survivability outside of cooldowns while still retaining flavor. The HoT can be tuned a lot easier across all specs than the current implementation. It would also be a nice quality of life change for Holy if the mana aspect is changed to something like the above.

3a.) Change the Inquisition glyph (or add a new glyph) to allow Inquisition to be refreshed by Word of Glory. What this change would do is allow Inquisition to be kept up a bit more consistently in battlegrounds and arenas without sacrificing survivability when focused without diminishing the impact and role Inquisition has in PvE.

3b.) Change the Inquisition glyph to change Inquisition into more of a burst ability instead of a sustained one. Make it so sustained damage would suffer over long fights so that unglyphed Inquisition is still preferred in most PvE encounters, but giving us that extra burst would be helpful with getting Ret on track in PvP.
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90 Human Paladin
9920
We are in a decent place, and compared to our melee-support counterparts (feral druid, enh sham, ww monk) we are doing alright
WW monk is getting some nice buffs in 5.2, and feral druid already is viable in competitive arena

The most disappointing thing I find with ret right now, is how much damage we sacrifice for so little surviviability.

When they tried to hit boom/spriest/ele with the healing nerfs, they really hurt us and the enhance shamans the most, since the only edge we brought over a warrior was that we had strong offheals
Now we have subpar damage, disappointing heals (considering the damage we sacrifice for it), and are susceptible to cc/focus

As far as "changes", we either need more damage, or more survivability
-Give us the 4pc from PvE, in our PvP gear (reduce AW cd by 60s)
-Reduce the cd on Blinding Light
**Give us a flat 10-15% incoming damage reduction when in Seal of Insight**
-Make the WoG glyph reduce damage taken by 3% per HP, not done
-Incease Censure damage by 100% when the target is slowed/snared/stunned
-4pc Chance-on-hit Your next Templar's Verdict will consume no holy power and is a guaranteed criticial hit
**Glyph TV to deal 10% of initial damage as magic damage over 4s**

I am of course not suggesting we need all of these, but ret pvp is due for 1 or 2 small buffs
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70 Draenei Paladin
12850
1. Change Hand of Freedom to cost holy power and last according to the amount of holy power consumed. Possibly make it undispellable as well.

2. Remove Sanctified Wrath from the talent choices and build it into each spec. However, take away the 50% cooldown reduction on the certain moves etc. but make Avenging Wrath have a 1 minute less cd and change the 4 piece set bonus for ret pve. OR keep the talent but make it reduce Avenging Wrath's cd by 1 minute as well.

3. Add a new talent in place of Sanctified Wrath that when you use a move at 3 holy power it gives you one in return and change the 4 piece set bonus for holy pvp I also feel like this would fit in more with the talent choices of that tier as well.

4. Make Holy Avenger a 1 minute cd, it's too weak in pve right now and in pvp its 18 seconds of decent damage then 2 minutes of waiting for a cd to fall off.

5. Buff our sustained damage please, it doesn't make much sense to me how every other melee has at least decent sustained damage without having to spec specifically for it. (change from Holy Avenger to Divine Purpose) I also see many complaints about Ret's damage being sub-par to other classes.


1. I don't like the idea of using holy power to fuel a utility skill. And don't think HoF needs to be un-dispellable with Clemency.
2. I'd rather see Inquisition worked in as a baseline to all skills.
3. Again, not a fan of using holy power to fuel utility skills. Reason being, we'd be starved for it because you've proposed a way that just won't offset the new imbalance of this resource.
4. INSTEAD - How about have Unbreakable Spirit reduce Holy Avenger's cd as well?
5. This would be achieved with what I said in #2. It is very un-often, on the verge of never, that I see a paladin that is happy with Inquisition upkeep.
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90 Human Paladin
5770
Another one I thought of today for a talent in the level 75 tier in place of SW was to make our holy power generating moves generate 2 charges of holy power when we critically hit with them. While I do see a problem it could have with holy paladins and holy shock, it could act as another way to get holy power rather than a glyph or using divine light or flash on a specific target.

I also think they could make the whole level 75 talent tier baseline but nerd them a bit (like taking away the 30% damage increase on HA and making DP only have a 10/15% chance to proc and SW causing wings to last half as long or have a 1 min shorter cd, without the 50% cd reduction on certain moves) and replace them with talents that generate extra holy power like the one I mentioned here and in my first post. I also think each of the level 90 talents should generate holy power, LH every time it deals damage, ES once on use and again on the final hit, HP on use.

Also, I'm not saying they should implement all of these, just throwing out some ideas.


Sounds alot like the Cata Paladin. DP and HA were both baseline.
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