5.2 Moonkin changes discussion

90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Putting datamined changes in here, then discussing the same, in no particular order:

Displacer Beast: Automatic Prowl removed, movement speed +50% for 4 secs added - needs confirmation.
PVP Change, no prowl now is now a nerf to this talent, possibly making wild charge a very good choice. They're removing pretty much all the "benefits" of what makes resto druids "unkillable" in PVP, and yet again, moonkins taking collateral damage

Cenarion Ward Heals the target for (12,349 + 104.0% of SP - up from 6,174 + 57.0%) every 2 sec for 6 sec.
With a 30 second CD, and a 30 second duration, the overall throughput healing might be decent for some PVE encounters during progression. The instant NS-HT / NS-Cyclone benefits are still very good though. A situational change at best.

Force of Nature: The Treants summoned by Force of Nature now deal more damage and healing, and the Force of Nature tooltip will report the capabilities of these summoned pets.
For balance, it is better than the older version, but the jury is still out whether or not it will be a DPS upgrade over Incarnation or the new SOTF.

Faerie Swarm - One target restriction removed
Mass Entanglement: Now 30 sec cooldown (down from 2 mins)
Typhoon: 30 sec cooldown (up from 20).

The entire talent tree tier 3 has changes. Faerie Swarm single target removal isn't as attractive due to the GCD usage. Most classes will have an AE snare to do that same job - PVP, again, you're better off not using that many GCDs on casting faerie swarms.

Mass Entanglement might actually be good in certain PVE encounters with adds - for e.g. Elegon etc. 30 second CD makes this talent actually useful.

Typhoon nerf at 30 second now makes it on par with Entanglement. Now it's a matter of knockback vs. root - a nerf to the talent nevertheless.

Nature's Vigil: Increases all damage and healing done 10% (down from 20%) for 30 sec. 1.5 min cooldown (down from 3 mins).
A fairly substantial burst nerf that aligned Incarnation / NV / CA for Moonkins. It is basically a straight up smoothing of the damage curve for Balance druids. Although I did enjoy seeing my 300k (and Cyous will likely miss his 600k+ Starsurge crits)

Soul of the Forest: When a Lunar Eclipse ends you gain 40 Solar Energy and when a Solar Eclipse ends you gain 40 Lunar Energy. (Up from 20 energy)

This is the most intriguing change (as on 1st datamine) in my opinion. It is a huge damage buff for this talent, and some of the math geniuses need to come in to theorycraft on this change. On paper, what this talent make is that we will be spending only ONE non-eclipsed cast of Wrath or Starfire per eclipse cycle.

Haste will be devalued further after this change since out of Eclipse -> 1 cast into another Eclipse will make NG uptime even higher. I'm inclined to think that now, with a decent amount of crit, mastery stacking with SoTF might become better than Incarnation for overall DPS, but definitely not good for burst. However, coupled with more NV cycles on a 90-second CD, 30-second uptime you can do a fair bit of NV+Eclipse buffed damage.

I'll hit up the PTR and try to do some mastery stacked with SOTF and post results in here.

Symbiosis: Now has 6 sec cooldown.
Meh - not sure what this change is set to accomplish, but okay... You cannot cast Symb in combat or when target is in combat...

What I'd like to see:
1. Please at least give us some major glyphs that interact with our primary dps spells?
2. Movement DPS help - SnF / MF spam isn't fun
3. Shrooms / Hurricane or Astral Storm for AE is NOT fun, and highly clunky, a word on this would be great.
Edited by Owlcapwn on 12/22/2012 1:22 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Reserved!
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90 Troll Druid
8670
I'm pretty unhappy right now. I can't tell you how many posts I have personally made about getting certain fixes/attention for moonkins and all we get now is a nerf that is presumably because of feral pvp. I am also not the only one that has made posts...
/feeling neglected and nature's vigil nerf is going to hurt us in both pve and pvp where we were decidedly not op.
Edited by Halfatree on 12/21/2012 9:21 PM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
11265
thanks for doing this owl. looking forward to your input/results.
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100 Tauren Druid
21555
Displacer Beast: Automatic Prowl removed, movement speed +50% for 4 secs added - needs confirmation.
PVP Change, no prowl now is now a nerf to this talent, possibly making wild charge a very good choice. They're removing pretty much all the "benefits" of what makes resto druids "unkillable" in PVP, and yet again, moonkins taking collateral damage

Truthfully, this is a buff. It's very rare to have prowl from Displacer Beast actually hold, since it breaks if you have a DoT on you... which in any high-end PVP fight, you WILL have DoT on you. Having a small speed boost after teleporting will help immensely with distancing ourselves from any threats. Prowl was only really good for the confusion aspect of it, but the blink itself is still confusing. I'm okay with the change and will continue to use the talent in balance PVP.

Faerie Swarm - One target restriction removed
Mass Entanglement: Now 30 sec cooldown (down from 2 mins)
Typhoon: 30 sec cooldown (up from 20).

The entire talent tree tier 3 has changes. Faerie Swarm single target removal isn't as attractive due to the GCD usage. Most classes will have an AE snare to do that same job - PVP, again, you're better off not using that many GCDs on casting faerie swarms.

The FS change makes it attractive for PVE IMO. It would be pretty nice to throw multiple FF's on 10-man Rages in the WotE fight. The GCD sucks but on a couple targets it's worth it I think.

The Mass Entanglement change is welcome, I just hope it doesn't instantly break anymore.

The Typhoon change is garbage. I really see no reason that the CD was extended.

Nature's Vigil: Increases all damage and healing done 10% (down from 20%) for 30 sec. 1.5 min cooldown (down from 3 mins).
A fairly substantial burst nerf that aligned Incarnation / NV / CA for Moonkins. It is basically a straight up smoothing of the damage curve for Balance druids. Although I did enjoy seeing my 300k (and Cyous will likely miss his 600k+ Starsurge crits)

I don't know what to think of this one yet. It sounds like a minor buff but I'm not happy with how it will be screwing with our other CDs. A NV+Incar macro is required, but the shorter CD on NV can potentially mess up the rotation a bit and screw up Incarnation usage later on in a fight. I'll have to wait and see what the theorycrafters say.

What I'd like to see:
1. Please at least give us some major glyphs that interact with our primary dps spells?
2. Movement DPS help - SnF / MF spam isn't fun
3. Shrooms / Hurricane or Astral Storm for AE is NOT fun, and highly clunky, a word on this would be great.

1. We desperately need glyphs. I think it's stupid that we need two separate glyphs to get any actual benefit out of Stampeding Roar. Why can't we just make SR usable in all forms already, and keep the glyph that increases the radius? Seems silly that we're forced to shift into bear when unglyphed.

I get envious when I see other glyphs. Shaman's Flame Shock glyph got reworked this coming patch and now heals them for some of the ticking damage. Why can't we have more flavor like that? PVE moonkin use Moonbeast, Stampeding Roar, and Stampede, nothing else. We literally have no other options for raids.

2. Our damage drops like a rock if we're forced to move. We either have to sidestep something a few yards, in which case we miss a nuke and it's not worth overriding a DoT with LS, or we move a lot and LS doesn't hold up.

3. I have to disagree here. There's nothing more annoying than planting Mushrooms. I don't understand how you can call a set it and forget it AOE clunky. I'm fine with Hurricane and I'm happy that it's our primary AOE now.
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100 Night Elf Druid
13960
12/21/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Owlcapwn
On paper, what this talent make is that we will be spending only ONE non-eclipsed cast of Wrath or Starfire per eclipse cycle.


By "ONE" you mean two? This isn't even a buff going from lunar to to solar. It already takes two casts to get from 0-100 with sotf. Its only a buff going from solar to lunar by 1 cast. This ability was kinda gimped in that way, good they fixed that.

Force of Nature: Tooltip update
Nothing to see here folks... move along!


Force of Nature's healing and damage was buffed.

Displacer Beast: Automatic Prowl removed, movement speed +50% for 4 secs added - needs confirmation.
PVP Change, no prowl now is now a nerf to this talent, possibly making wild charge a very good choice.


What? nerf? you mean buff, if you actually think the stealth was worthwhile in pvp your crazy, stealth almost always broke instantly.
Edited by Blackklisted on 12/21/2012 11:54 PM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Nature's Vigil: Increases all damage and healing done 10% (down from 20%) for 30 sec. 1.5 min cooldown (down from 3 mins).
A fairly substantial burst nerf that aligned Incarnation / NV / CA for Moonkins. It is basically a straight up smoothing of the damage curve for Balance druids. Although I did enjoy seeing my 300k (and Cyous will likely miss his 600k+ Starsurge crits)

I'm probably going to try SoTF with DoC next tier. It depends on the fights of course. I'll still be getting 600k SS crits, but it'll take a few 527's though.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
By "ONE" you mean two? This isn't even a buff going from lunar to to solar. It already takes two casts to get from 0-100 with sotf. Its only a buff going from solar to lunar by 1 cast. It will get us into lunar much faster tho.


Well, you change Eclipse states @ 50, + 40 from SOTF gets you to 90 energy. Isn't it one after that?

12/21/2012 11:34 PMPosted by Blackklisted
Force of Nature's healing and damage was buffed.

I'll update that in original post - it wasn't updated when I wrote that.
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92 Night Elf Druid
14895
The displacer beast prowl was good because of the target drop, not because it would actually hold.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Just offering my thoughts, PvE, on the Nature's Vigil change.

Why nerf 10% of the burst? What is the point? So a 220k burst is now 200k? What did that fix? Why not just spread out the damage of ability more evenly? For example, gutting Starfire, and Starsurge by a little bit, then buffing Wrath slightly to compensate, than increasing DOT damage. I have no issues with changing damage modifiers, but why change the synergy of certain abilities? There really is nothing worse than giving a micromanaging specc MORE things to micromanage. Is changing Nature's Vigil the easy way out, or is changing damaging spells just too much effort to rebalance said spells to more 'acceptable' levels?
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100 Troll Druid
14250
Why do ppl keep insisting we get dps glyphs? We had dps glyphs in cata and wotlk and they were mandatory and really, really boring.
For the first time ever we actually have a choice in which glyphs we use, why would you want them to take that away?

They really ought to merge the 2 stampeding roar glyphs though. Two glyphs to make 1 spell useful in a raid is kinda silly.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Why do ppl keep insisting we get dps glyphs? We had dps glyphs in cata and wotlk and they were mandatory and really, really boring.
For the first time ever we actually have a choice in which glyphs we use, why would you want them to take that away?

They really ought to merge the 2 stampeding roar glyphs though. Two glyphs to make 1 spell useful in a raid is kinda silly.


Because glyphs offer what they deem "options" - they've removed the mandatory dps upgrade glyphs for the most part, and actually made most glyphs change the actual spell in question. Where you can swap freely to suit a particular playstyle. Not having a the options for even a single glyph that affects our dps spells spells neglect in every manner.

Just offering my thoughts, PvE, on the Nature's Vigil change.

Why nerf 10% of the burst? What is the point? So a 220k burst is now 200k? What did that fix? Why not just spread out the damage of ability more evenly? For example, gutting Starfire, and Starsurge by a little bit, then buffing Wrath slightly to compensate, than increasing DOT damage. I have no issues with changing damage modifiers, but why change the synergy of certain abilities? There really is nothing worse than giving a micromanaging specc MORE things to micromanage. Is changing Nature's Vigil the easy way out, or is changing damaging spells just too much effort to rebalance said spells to more 'acceptable' levels?


It was a spillover nerf from ferals. With kitties doing massive damage during all of their CDs as well, their damage was more difficult to avoid than ours. Ours is still a casted, but theirs was mostly instant (being melee).

This patch (so far) looks like breaking the synergy betwen Inc / NV / CA that Boomkins have had so far in MoP, whether intentional or not. If you hit up the PTR Cyous, let me know - I'll do some tests with u.
Edited by Owlcapwn on 12/22/2012 1:25 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
11620
12/22/2012 01:16 AMPosted by Owlcapwn
This patch (so far) looks like breaking the synergy betwen Inc / NV / CA that Boomkins have had so far in MoP, whether intentional or not. If you hit up the PTR Cyous, let me know - I'll do some tests with u.

Will do when I'm not yelling at Eluial for ignoring me during her boss fights.

Really though, breaking synergy is simply unacceptable to a non-broken class/specc. What makes Feral burst so bad [amazing]? Incarnation, Nature's vigil, and Berserk? Obviously a PvP nerf, why not nerf Berserk, or move more damage towards Rake, Rip (DOT), and Auto-attack? If burst is the issue, leave the damage output the same while avoiding collateral damage.

I went through Cata trying to learn how to maximize Starfall, which took some serious forethought (upwards of 30sec). With MOP, it's certainly not Starfall that I'm tracking, but it's reacting to DOT extensions whilst managing cooldowns, whilst positioning for effective Starfalling whilst holding Starsurge procs in favor of less immediate damage for a higher net-gain of damage through proper spellcasting by gaming Eclipse. Now I need to know when I should use Nature's Vigil without Incarnation within a 5-10sec window in order to minimize the loss of damage gained from pre-change Nature's Vigil.

If it doesn't feel smooth, it probably isn't right. Some players don't play Boomkin because the experience is terrible. Slow casts times, you don't feel "epic" enough. Feral attracts more players with the dynamic playstyle. Making Boomkin more dreadful to play for newer players, because Feral PvP burst was too high (by 10% apparently), does not fix anything. You're sweeping the issues under the carpet and calling it clean.

I know I'm not alone when I say DOC is terrible for all fights except pure Patchwerk. Any bit of movement you're forced into? DPS loss, no gain for proper handling of the mechanic. HOTW is flawed design for DPS (Balance/Feral) because the "Mooncat" idea was gutted. Nature's Vigil is really the only viable option; with this change to NV Balance druid will become a nuisance to play. I know I'll be able to adapt, but it's just going to make the specc harder to master (and it's one of the tougher speccs out there, in terms of actual micromanagement [up there with UA Warlocks]).

Here's an idea for DOC, specifically for Balance druids, to make it more appealing:
- Healing Touch may be cast while moving.

Here's an idea for HOTW to make it more appealing:

--[[ ALL PASSIVE ]]--

- Non-Guardian -- Attacks that would otherwise kill you, bring you to 30% Health and cause you to take 50% less damage for 6 seconds. 3min CD.
- Non-Resto -- Heals back 10% of all damage taken over 10sec. Cannot exceed 10% of your maximum health.
- Non-Feral -- Cat Form grants Hit, Expertise, and Int->Agility. Increases auto-attack damage significantly.
- Non-Balance -- Non-healing spells cost no mana. Hurricane, Wrath and Moonfire deal significantly more damage.
Edited by Cyous on 12/22/2012 2:32 AM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
21555
I know I'm not alone when I say DOC is terrible for all fights except pure Patchwerk. HOTW is flawed design for DPS (Balance/Feral). Nature's Vigil is really the only viable option, now Balance druid will become a nuisance to play. I know I'll be able to adapt, but it's just going to make the specc harder to master (and it's one of the tougher speccs out there, in terms of actual micromanagement [up there with UA Warlocks]).

I have tried DoC once, on Tsulong, and I hated it. It completely breaks the vibe of being a balance druid. I have also picked up HOTW on rare occasions (one time with actual healing use) and was not impressed. It was disheartening seeing my damage numbers drop while I helped stabilize the raid through healing.

I said this a lot during beta; end-tier talents should feel epic precisely because they're end-tier talents. I'm certainly not saying the sky is falling because NV got a "nerf"... but I'm not very excited about my other choices.

I'd like to stick with NV because it fits my playstyle the most. But as Cyous said, I am not looking forward to how the new, shorter CD can screw up my rotation if I happen to miss using it within a ~7 second window of it coming off CD.
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90 Troll Druid
7605
The effect the NV change will have on moonkin is ridiculous and completely unwarranted.

This will be a fair PVE nerf in terms of overall raw numbers, and while that itself isn't my main problem with it, it's a hit in an area we needed no gutting.

The introduction of NV and Incarnation saw us transform radically from one of the most sustained Dps classes to one of the hugest burst reliant. Along with the transformation came all the attributes, both advantageous and disadvantageous, of being a burst spec. We suffered without our cooldowns up, lacked heavily on fight mechanics where our burst phase was even remotely affected, and having to do stuff like Tranq/Brez/Innervate while bursting was nothing short of a torment.

But there were all the good sides to it too. Damage modifiers were of far more benefit to us than for sustained dps classes. Fights with durations which allowed a higher cd uptime than what's expected on paper worked heavily in our favor (Think of those 3:30 or 6:30 long encounters, where the fight ends just as your Cds do). And encounters where you got to unleash the full extent of all it is Moonkin excels at (Those burst+multi target phases) saw you second to none for those 15-30 seconds.

And then people start !@#$%ing about Ferals handing their asses to them, and the true ramifications of having to share talents with our 3 other specs rear their ugly heads at us.

Not only will this severely gut us in all the aforementioned situations we're good at, but the addition of a Cd which will now share far less synchrony with our other Cds will add far more micro-management to a spec which already has more than its fair share of grievances. NV's just come off, so should I pop it on this solar? Saving it for Lunar would be more damage for now, but what if the delay will make it so I can't time NV with Incarnation when that comes off? If that happens, would it be worth popping Incarnation right on Lunar anyway? Or should I wait 1 whole Eclipse cycle to pop it so I can time everything?

Seriously Blizz. We have the worst movement, clunkiest aoe (which I hope you can see adding Astral Storm as an inferior Hurricane did little to nothing to fix), have to endure Solar Eclipse lolwrath spam half the time (Why did you even change its graphic? The old Space cabbages would've been a far better representation of what Wrath is good for now), and then you go and nerf one of the main things we were good at.
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90 Troll Druid
7605
The SotF change is very nice though, although that really should've been the way the talent was released. I was also hoping to see a 'Astral communion can now be cast while moving' though.

Dream of Cenarius needs some tweaking for Balance. Not only is it clearly the lamest talent in that it adds a Healing spell into your Dps rotation, but it's also the easiest talent to stand to lose from. Encounters where you spam moonfire on the move will cause you to over write the buffed dot, and you'll also suffer alot anytime you aren't able to keep dot uptimes high. I feel what this talent lacks is a niche. NV is good for burst, Hotw is good to default to, with the 45 seconds of being able to do any other role as good insurance, although I wish we had bear and kitty thrash.

Seeing as what impacts Doc the most is movement, and especially seeing as Moonkin have the worst movement, I think it would be great if Doc were something that helped us in that area. Either what Cyous suggested above, or re-design it for Moonkin so that it interacts with Rejuv.

Dream of Cenarius:
Your Moonfire and Sunfire criticals increase the healing of your next Rejuv by 30%.
In addition, casting Rejuv grants one charge of DoC. DoC increases the damage done by your next Moonfire or sunfire by 50%, and stacks up to 4 times. Charges last for up to 1 minute. At 3 stacks and above, your Rejuv crits have a 100% chance to proc Shooting Stars.

Numbers could be tweaked to balance it, but fundamentally I think that would be far better than the live version. It also would make it more desirable for Pvp.
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100 Worgen Druid
13460
12/21/2012 11:34 PMPosted by Blackklisted
What? nerf? you mean buff, if you actually think the stealth was worthwhile in pvp your crazy, stealth almost always broke instantly.


No.

12/22/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Widdlez
The displacer beast prowl was good because of the target drop, not because it would actually hold.


This. It dropped focus, on top of a blink and dropping target. That's why you used it.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
I really don't want to have to track NV that closely after cooldown usage in order to use it immediately off CD so that it is available with cooldowns against when it comes back off CD. I am interested to know what's happening to the (Edit: secondary) healing and damage component of the talent. The SoTf change definately seems like it devalues haste since you'd have 100% uptime on natures grace without movement or interruptions and spend only one cast outside of eclipse. Makes it seem as if though stat priority could flipflop even more. Also, SoTf has potential to help very slightly with movement since moving into a new eclipse that fast can provide starfall and there is better natures grace uptime. It feels like they are trying to force us to choose between burst or sustained damage which is very... weird? I don't really want to change around that much on a fight by fight basis. Force of nature just really doesn't interest me outside of being something that could be cast while moving with how little we can do while moving (rejuv/lunar showers).
Edited by Stratis on 12/22/2012 9:02 AM PST
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90 Troll Druid
8670
Haste caps are usually considered with nature's grace so that won't change a lot but NV is going to be a big change. It's already best to use it with lunar eclipse and stacking it with incarnation into celestial alignment to maximize damage. With so many restrictions on when to pop cooldowns we can't just use it as soon as it comes off cd, we'll be waiting for lunar for nv after 1.5 minutes and then to align nv and incarnation and lunar the second time around. I'm trying to keep my head here but we've been asking for less clunky aspects to our spec not more.

That said, it's early. This may not make it live and other things may yet be changed. But it would require blizz to give us moonchickens some love and we haven't seen any for a while.
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90 Troll Druid
15945
12/22/2012 12:22 AMPosted by Widdlez
The displacer beast prowl was good because of the target drop, not because it would actually hold.


Seeing as we don't have a real defensive cooldown , the one or two seconds that DP bought you during a melee's cd's was great. Without prowl the talent is pretty useless in pvp .

When it comes to the NV nerf .... I am not a big fan of having moonkin pve / pvp nerfed because of feral pvp. But who knows .. maybe it will end up being better. ( I doubt it )

Going to spend some time on the Ptr when its up.
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