5.2 Moonkin changes discussion

90 Night Elf Druid
15215
12/25/2012 02:49 AMPosted by Nexian
Remember for NV we can now use the auto-heal twice as often, so I'm all for it.


The heal component of NV isn't what people use it for (PVE perspective) - it's a nice bonus, no doubt, but it's not what it is for. And even if I can use it 3 times as often with a 1 min CD, it throws our rotation out of whack which is what most of us are worried about.

Actually, you will want to use it on cooldown. So long as you use NV within a ~7 second window of it coming off CD, it will continue to align fine with our 3 minute burst.


Right now, we can "time" our CDs at the start of a Lunar all times by delaying all of them by a few seconds if we're not in Lunar yet. The problem with the 1.5 min CD is that if you're caught in early-mid Solar, then your rotation for the next CDs also is screwed up. What are the chances of that? Pretty darn high. Or quick movement right before hitting lunar or needing to tranq etc.

Right now, ALL our CDs get delayed, or none do. With smart play, we can almost always time so that we get maximum burst for our CDs. Does that mean delaying using all of them at times for 10-15 seconds (for e.g. just before Lei-Shi is about to cast hide etc)? Sure. But breaking it deliberately because ferals are causing too much damage is just plain stupid.

@ Cyous - I like the DoC idea about spores, but not sure if 20% damage will be overkill or not. But yea, a general idea is nice. I kinda like how the different brews work for Monks. Taking this for DoC from the monk spellbook(I'm listing Balance druid suggestion only):

When you cast rejuvenation on yourself, you gain a spore each time it heals, stacking up to 20 times. (so we gain a spore per TICK of Rejuv). When at maximum stacks, casting rejuvenation will consume up to 10 spores, increasing your damage done by 1% per spore consumed, (damage buff) lasting 30 seconds.

It's a slightly changed version of your idea, but less burst (not 20%), and more sustained overall damage. Would that probably make it better than NV? Yea I think so. But you can change it to 10 stacks / 5 stacks consume for a 5% overall damage boost instead of 10%.

@Halfatree: Yea, hurricane, or in general our AOE and the way it interacts with NG is really stupid. I go from 160k DPS in AE hurricane while NG is up to less than 70k under no-eclipse stages. This spike is far too much and we really need a lot more control over our Eclipse states. AC on the move will help us tremendously, but blizzard is just not willing to listen on that part.
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90 Troll Druid
15285
12/26/2012 12:52 AMPosted by Cyous
I think they should leave Tranquility out of it. With your idea, I'd assume most druids in progression content would be pigeonholed into taking the lower CD on Tranq, and I think that's something we all want to avoid.

True, I didn't think it would be that huge of an issue, but maybe increasing the healing by 50% will do just fine. (+50% healing from HOTW is the current modifier)

Dream of Cenarius idea, feel free to chime in.

Dream of Cenarius:

Guardian:
Rejuvenation may be cast in Bear Form and now costs 5 Rage. Each tick will grant an application of Lifeblood. Lifeblood reduces the cost of Savage Defense or Frenzied Regeneration by 2 Rage. Stacks up to 20 times.

Restoration:
Your Wrath grants Wrath of Cenarius, increasingly your damage by 15% and healing by 3%. Stacks up to 5 times and lasts 20sec. While fully stacked the effect is doubled, but Wrath of Cenarius cannot be refreshed.
(1 stacks: + 15% damage, + 3% healing)
(4 stacks: + 60% damage, + 12% healing)
(5 stacks: +150% damage, +30% healing)

Feral:
Your Healing Touch grants your next 2 melee abilities 25% additional damage. In addition, Healing Touch is duplicated to 2 nearby friendly targets for 30% of the original amount.

Balance:
Reaching an Eclipse state causes you to radiant with energy, healing up to 3 nearby friendly targets for [6071 + 67.3%]. In addition, reaching an Eclipse state grants Phosphorescent Spores increasing your damage and healing done by 1%. Stacking up to 20 times and lasts 45 seconds. Must be in combat to build spores.
As much as I like your idea, I have been inspired to make some suggestions of my own.
Guardian:
Rejuvenation may be cast in Bear Form and now costs 5 Rage. Each tick will grant an application of Lifeblood. Lifeblood reduces the cost of Savage Defense or Frenzied Regeneration by 2 Rage. Stacks up to 20 times.
I actually really like this idea, and it got me thinking. Why not drop glyph of moonbeast, and make DoC the 'heal in all forms' talant? Rejuv now costs rage, mana or energy depending on form...granting you buffs for its use, and so does healing touch...but does not drop form.

For balance having rejuv crits also grant shooting stars procs, grant feral a bonus proc chance to clear casting and add in your suggestion for a buff to resto wraths.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
When you cast rejuvenation on yourself, you gain a spore each time it heals, stacking up to 20 times. (so we gain a spore per TICK of Rejuv). When at maximum stacks, casting rejuvenation will consume up to 10 spores, increasing your damage done by 1% per spore consumed, (damage buff) lasting 30 seconds.

It's a slightly changed version of your idea, but less burst (not 20%), and more sustained overall damage. Would that probably make it better than NV? Yea I think so. But you can change it to 10 stacks / 5 stacks consume for a 5% overall damage boost instead of 10%.

So, there's a slight issue with that.

5 ticks of Rejuv over 13sec. In order to reach 10 stacks, it will take me 26sec. I can game Rejuv by removin the buff at 9 stacks, and sit on the buff just before Lunar Eclipse, or line it up as I leave Solar Eclipse for the same result.So, if the buff lasts 30sec and i can apply in every 26sec, I have to use it within 4 seconds of the first Rejuv failling off to maintain 100% uptime.

Also, my Spores idea is an execution. Each time you reach Eclipse, you gain +1%. THe second time you reach Eclipse this buff goes to +2%. At 10 Eclipse cycles, you'll be at 20%. It typically takes 45sec to cycle Eclipse. This means you'll be doing 22.5sec Eclipse swings. If a fight lasted 6min, you'd have 8 Cycles. It might be a little to quick to maximum stacks, but using a number like +0.75% damage by stack would work out nicely.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Also, my Spores idea is an execution. Each time you reach Eclipse, you gain +1%. THe second time you reach Eclipse this buff goes to +2%. At 10 Eclipse cycles, you'll be at 20%. It typically takes 45sec to cycle Eclipse. This means you'll be doing 22.5sec Eclipse swings. If a fight lasted 6min, you'd have 8 Cycles. It might be a little to quick to maximum stacks, but using a number like +0.75% damage by stack would work out nicely.


Ahh - sorry, that makes a lot more sense now. Yup, heaps better than mine lol :)
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90 Troll Druid
12280
I think that your idea for DoC over-synergizes with the new SoTF. I like the idea, but I think it would be too obvious of a choice if it was just a stacking buff.

Or they could just give us a 90 talent that gives us an execute.
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90 Worgen Druid
10200
Ah, so there *is* a thread here!

Lots of interesting posts so far (though I skimmed most of the new talent ideas -- they're generally less valuable than feedback on how things actually are/will be).

Reserving judgment on the NV changes until the PTR. I'm not as adamantly against it as some people seem to be, but I want to know just how much it's going to throw our timing off. As it is, I often have to wait between half to a whole eclipse cycle to use my CDs again. Not sure that using NV twice as often is going to throw things off too badly. But again, I'm waiting until I can actually test this.

Really liking the SotF changes. Even though it's not a huge change over the current design, it makes it much more balanced on both sides of the eclipse bar, and a more reasonable choice for fights that are not CD friendly, like Lei Shi.

Displacer beast change seems more directed at resto, since they could dispel dots and vanish. If that really is the reason it's been changed, it would be nice to see the target/focus drop come back without the stealth (similar to feign death).

Overall though, as long as HotW and DoC remain in their current state, NV will continue to be the DPS talent of choice in T6 for moonkin (unless it's gutted to the point where HotW's passive int bonus is more DPS than NV is).
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90 Tauren Druid
11745
Hey guys! I often pop onto the forums to gauge what my fellow Moonkin brothers and sisters are feeling about the current state of affairs, and I couldn't agree more with what you are all saying. Changes need to be made, and a few of them they have specifically made for feral make absolutely no sense to carry over into Balance. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all of the ideas posted here, there really seem to be some fantastic ones. I figured I could throw my two cents in as well.

The SotF change is a great step for that talent. I'm excited to see how the actual numbers parse out when it comes to fruition, as I tend to prefer stable, long-term dps to burst in PvE (personal opinion, even with seeing our huge crits). I can definitely see mastery becoming far more valuable, as it will be easier to transition between the two states.

DoC and HotW need reworked or scrapped completely. Even with the impending NV change, it will most likely still be the best and easiest to manage 90 talent we have. I'll be a little more excited to try DoC with the SotF changes, but I still think it is hard to waste Nature's Grace time on a Healing Touch. It would be absolutely amazing if HT extended the time on our NG by 5 seconds or so upon casting it, allowing the use of this talent to be far more viable. As for HotW, it's hard to think of decent alternatives to the current state (although some of the ones on here are very interesting). I personally enjoy the concept of the talent, but not the execution. Reduce the cooldown and allow it is grant another ability or two depending on what you need. Give us swiftmend if we want to heal, rip while in cat, or savage defense in bear. They could give the other specs starfall or sunfire if they want to cast. Of course it would take balancing, but it would be FAR more enjoyable to use.

If they can't be fixed, just remove them. I know that druids in general are iffy about shrooms, but an improved shrooms talent would be amazing at high levels. Something along the lines of:

Altered Wild Mushroom:
Allows three Wild Mushrooms to be placed at once 5 yards apart from one another. Mushrooms last 5 minutes. Detonate CD increased to 1 minute. Effects change depending on spec.
Balance- This would be a good place for Cyous's spore effect. The spores build as long as we are within shroom area of effect, and can be moved if needed. Detonating increases Haste by 10-15% for 15 seconds.
Guardian- Spores occasionally coalesce on the druid, increasing armor by x%. Detonating triggers a stronger Tooth and Claw Effect.
Feral- Spores attach to the cat's claws, increasing bleed damage by x%. Detonating increases movement speed and allows use of stealth abilities for 5-10 seconds.
Resto- Spores energize friendly targets, healing them for x amount (like healing stream totem). Detonation triggers a more powerful heal.

Note: I know feral/guardian don't have shrooms, but they could access them with this talent. And if you like old shrooms, then just don't take it.

One more observation: As Balance druids, our two eclipse states should feel more.... balanced. We all know that lunar is far superior to solar, and it would be nicer to bring them a little closer together. I can only hope, but I'd love to see Insect Swarm make a return, but as a CD this time. You would place it in an area (Think Earthquake for shamans) and it would do damage over time, reduce chance to hit, etc. It could have a cooldown similar to Starfall and can be reset upon entering solar eclipse.

Feel free to tear this apart, I just enjoy thinking about new things that would make our class more exciting to play.
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90 Night Elf Druid
6280
please see here for more wild mushroom madness ideas

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415494308
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90 Troll Druid
7605
12/27/2012 12:17 PMPosted by Eluial
Really liking the SotF changes. Even though it's not a huge change over the current design, it makes it much more balanced on both sides of the eclipse bar, and a more reasonable choice for fights that are not CD friendly, like Lei Shi.


I have quite an aversion to that talent. It just seems to me that an imitation of our firelands set bonus shouldn't be the right way to go about presenting an option for sustained Dps. The way it is, it really only is a significant boost to your sustained damage when you're able to free cast from one eclipse to the next with minimal interruption. It does nothing for your dots, aoe, movement, etc.

It's probably silly to say anything about the changes without even the ptr up, but my guess is unless the gutted synchrony of our CDs proves to be quite impactful, we'll for the most part ignore sotf like we have been. Except for the occasional peek-a-boo boss where you can't burst reliably.
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90 Troll Druid
16755
I know this thread has been mostly about the pve changes for NV and our lack of non clunky aoe / movement dps.

But with Ele Getting getting a second major defensive cd when will it be our turn? Barkskin is just not enough when we are getting trained. ( For pvp obviously )

With the displacer nerf those of use who can't put symbiosis on a lock are just going to fall over like we did in cata.
Edited by Forestoreo on 12/28/2012 10:37 AM PST
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90 Worgen Druid
7410
Dont think it matters much tbh. We have our "niche" fights that we can top the meters, but on 80% of the fights (raiding) you can play like the best boomkin on the planet and if you have a somewhat competent warrior, mage, warlock, (or a few more classes) you'll still get smoked anyways. If youre a boomy and constantly topping the meter the rest of your group must be pretty bad. Balance druids are a support class. Plain and simple. Our single target dmg is very poor, but if youre good balance druid you'll practically never need direct heals. Barkskin, symbiosis, Might of ursoc, healthstones, NS / HT, I use all of those every fight multiple times. These changes in 5.2 are definetely not enuff to get us out of the cellar of class parses, so I dont really care too much.
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90 Worgen Druid
7410
Thanks for nothing blizzard. Last time balance druids were a true force of nature is when our 4pc gave us 100% crit chance everytime we eclipsed for a few casts. Been mediocre, at best, ever since.
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8 Draenei Priest
0
I want to see a buff/redesign to damage shrooms (GC hinted at a redesign for shrooms in a tweet, but that was in the context of healing iirc) and a more mobile Moonkin.

I suggested this during Beta, but it didn't get much attention. If Blizzard redesigned Starsurge to always be instant cast and have three charges, Moonkin would have an option for short term movement in Starsurge-charge saving and would not have to resort to placing mushrooms or spamming sun/moonfire (/shudder). DoT crits would have a 100% chance to knock off four seconds of Starsurge's CD.

This suggestion comes from my general disdain of proc spells and my love of abilities with charges. Not only would it give Moonkin an option for short-term movement, but it would also give them some on-demand burst (assuming they're in an eclipse state). It also stays true to Blizzard's crit-centric design of Moonkin this expansion.
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90 Human Monk
17840
12/28/2012 11:33 AMPosted by Quotation
If Blizzard redesigned Starsurge to always be instant cast and have three charges, Moonkin would have an option for short term movement in Starsurge-charge saving and would not have to resort to placing mushrooms or spamming sun/moonfire (/shudder).

If Starsurge remained as your highest DPCT spell, you wouldn't have any charges available when you needed to move because you'd (still) cast it on CD.
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8 Draenei Priest
0
12/28/2012 12:02 PMPosted by Litchi
If Starsurge remained as your highest DPCT spell, you wouldn't have any charges available when you needed to move because you'd (still) cast it on CD.


As long as you aren't sitting on three charges, the CD would not be wasted. I mean, you'd probably want to cast them during eclipse/trinket procs/whatever else, but yeah. I dunno, man.

It was the least disruptive change to Blizzard's design that I could think of. Though I suspect three instant cast, back-to-back Starsurges would be a lot of burst in PvP. Or something. I don't know anything about Moonkin PvP.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
12/28/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Quotation
As long as you aren't sitting on three charges, the CD would not be wasted. I mean, you'd probably want to cast them during eclipse/trinket procs/whatever else, but yeah. I dunno, man.

firing 3 Starsurges...if one of those crit with cooldowns running, you'll kill someone.
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90 Troll Druid
15285
12/29/2012 02:17 AMPosted by Cyous
As long as you aren't sitting on three charges, the CD would not be wasted. I mean, you'd probably want to cast them during eclipse/trinket procs/whatever else, but yeah. I dunno, man.

firing 3 Starsurges...if one of those crit with cooldowns running, you'll kill someone.
As much as I would love to see a buildup of starsurge charges, there would never be a way to balance that ability without such a severe and disappointing damage nerf to the ability.

Starsurge, as a result of dot extension, would be a great ability to give a +100% crit chance +crit damage modifier (kind of like chaos bolt). That is more of a wish, while prioritizing changes to 90 ability's should be the druid communities goal right now.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10180
At level 90 with an ilvl of 476!!!! I am doing around 42k dps!! WTH???? Any and all advice would be awesome at this point. I have done everything askmrrobot suggests ...I am so disappointed.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
12/29/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Kasima
At level 90 with an ilvl of 476!!!! I am doing around 42k dps!! WTH???? Any and all advice would be awesome at this point. I have done everything askmrrobot suggests ...I am so disappointed.

If you have WOL parses for us to look at, we'll be happy to help. If not, it's going to be a lot of work, on your part, to describe exactly how you open, how you refresh your DOTs, when you prefer Hurricane (number of targets), and much more.

Feel free to make a post on the druid forums inside the Moonfare sticky (Moonkin thread), or make your own thread.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12515
LOL were not some of you panning my tread a month ago when I raised this as an issue and said we were going to be nerfed? Idiots!!!
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