5.2 Moonkin changes discussion

90 Draenei Shaman
14635
I've been trying to push for a buff to DoC for a while now. They teased me in one of the last Beta patches when they brought it up to 65% and then took it away again.

DoC requires you to be a robot to play the talent to maximum potential. Given the numerous heroic mechanics some fights have, there's obviously a wasted component with the off heal which most Moonkins will just macro to auto heal themselves. It's a very cool talent with a lot of potential...but the damage gained from the Dots has to sim "TOO STRONG" for it to compete with the NV stacking or HotW.

I know it's hard to follow what I'm trying to say, so I'll try to reword it.

1. DoC = Hardest Talent to Use in the Game

2. Make DoC reward the players who learn how to use it by giving it an edge over the other Talents.

3. DoC will still punish players who don't use it correctly - just not as drastically as it does now.

I do fear that Moonkins will slowly de-evolve their rotation into a SotF/HotW talent build based on Scaling from the 6% and using SotF to devalue haste even more to make crit/mastery stronger. If that build ever becomes the strongest, I'm sure more of the community will swap classes for how boring the rotation will be.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
01/09/2013 09:22 AMPosted by Suprêmacy
so whats it look like owlcapwn? hows it look on the ptr?


Been super busy with brother just having twins and very close cousin having a girl over a 4-day span. Been far too busy playing catch-up in game (when I get the chance) to fiddle with PTR. Hopefully next week I can hit it up :)
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90 Troll Priest
Rex
14195
looks like soul of the forest might end up being pretty snazzy with the new set bonuses.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
Which the 4pc, Mastery is revalued even further and Crit > Haste will be king yet again. In addition, I'm not a fan of the 4pc. but I like the 2pc. Either are OP, it's just the 4pc is going to be useless on any AOE encounter where multi-dotting might be viable.
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100 Night Elf Druid
14240
I see absolutely no point in making NV "ugly" when DOC and HOTW are "very ugly." I don't want my choice of "ugly" talents. I know I'm not alone in that stance, your opinion may vary. Making DOC and HOTW more raid viable would be the better option, though more demanding on the designers to literally redesign and test these talents.


I remember some beta discussions in which people claimed they liked HOTW because it'd allow them to save the raid during special situations.

Is that actually happening now on a consistent basis?
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90 Troll Druid
11620
I remember some beta discussions in which people claimed they liked HOTW because it'd allow them to save the raid during special situations.

Is that actually happening now on a consistent basis?

Using a 45sec duration, 6min cooldown, spell for 6 seconds is fine, but really illogical in my opinion. (Also in the MMO-C Discussion)

I've never come across a time where a HOTW would have saved the day any better than an non-HOTW Tranq. HOTW increases your healing by 50%. Given damage modifiers like Heroic Windlord.... I very highly doubt HOTW Tranq is better than a 4mil SS crits -> 1mil NV heal. Combine that with DOTs and Starfall and Starfire casts, you can effeciently heal the raid for the duration. Now add another DPS NV-user. 2-healing the raid as Moonkin seems fair. That's a special condition in favor of NV, but we also had similar mechanics on Elegon, Heroic: Stone Guard, Heroic Lei Shi, Wind Lord (for listing purposes), and Gara'jal (if you want to count that). There's a few reasons in favor of NV's scaling flexibility.

HOTW-Tranq simply will never happen. You should never plan on "almost" wiping to make it effective.
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90 Troll Priest
Rex
14195
i think he's talking more about HOTW bear form than HOTW tranqs
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90 Troll Druid
11620
01/11/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Snaxattax
i think he's talking more about HOTW bear form than HOTW tranqs

That's even worse. Bear Form - HOTW tanking - is a terrible idea, and it's better left for a Warrior with DBtS. In addition, you should Res the downed tank first.
Edited by Cyous on 1/11/2013 11:47 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
14240
01/11/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Snaxattax
i think he's talking more about HOTW bear form than HOTW tranqs


Not really, I never really liked HOTW and I was called a noob many times in the MoP beta forums because I only did normal raiding in cata. Many people with heroic experience were claiming HOTW would be the best thing coming for druids because:

- resto druids and off tanking guardian druids (when not tanking due to a MT taunt) would be able to deal so much DPS it would make a difference between a first kill and a near wipe;

- it would help balance druids and feral druids to help out with healing, thus the raid could be formed with one less healer and the overall raid DPS would increase.

I was always skeptical about that, but I only did normal modes. Like Cyous said, I didn't like planning around almost wiping... and we already have tranquility for situations like that.
Now that I only do LFRs, I still feel skeptical, but I just pick NV instead. But I do wonder if the correct use of HOTW would be as complicated as DoC.
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17 Troll Warrior
0
That's even worse. Bear Form - HOTW tanking - is a terrible idea, and it's better left for a Warrior with DBtS. In addition, you should Res the downed tank first.


On a recent Sha attempt I used HoTW bear on due to a lag time when all our tanks were stuck on platforms. I was resto at the time and used it with evasion. I lasted 6 whole seconds before being crushed with two 300k+ hits. The rogue that I gave symbiosis too used growl and did much better. HoTW bear should be buffed to actually not suck.
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100 Night Elf Druid
7160
That's even worse. Bear Form - HOTW tanking - is a terrible idea, and it's better left for a Warrior with DBtS. In addition, you should Res the downed tank first.

On a recent Sha attempt I used HoTW bear on due to a lag time when all our tanks were stuck on platforms. I was resto at the time and used it with evasion. I lasted 6 whole seconds before being crushed with two 300k+ hits. The rogue that I gave symbiosis too used growl and did much better. HoTW bear should be buffed to actually not suck.

The HoTW bear form doesn't do well for raid bosses. But for surviving pvp melee tunneling it does ok though.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
01/12/2013 01:08 AMPosted by Karnudge
The HoTW bear form doesn't do well for raid bosses. But for surviving pvp melee tunneling it does ok though.

Yet again, it has a very specific use in which other options are available (better options as well). Not to mention, it's a 6min cooldown. Seems like a long CD for defense. In addition to that, you are literally doing nothing in Bear Form. It's great if you sit in Bear Form for 45sec, 10sec, whatever you want, you're applying no pressure, you have extremely limited options in Bear Form, and you haven't stopped the incoming pressure (minus the fact Bear Form [HOTW] is completely useless against casters).
Edited by Cyous on 1/12/2013 1:50 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
14635
I used HotW for the empowered Rejuvs twice in our first Heroic Will kill - this was back when you/we didn't insanely out gear the fight and it was a struggle for your healers to two heal.

HotW - Bear is worthless in a raid environment.

HotW - Cat...is this still worth using as a DPS CD? After abandoning Moonkin, I don't really recall if there's a reason for it. I just live by the rule: There's a reason I play a caster and not Melee.

C'mon Blizz - buff DoC!!!!
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90 Troll Druid
11620
No major PvE changes yet :(

(Talents aside)
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
one thing that I'd like to add (will finally be able to get some testing done this weekend):

Of our major CDs on Tier 3, SoTF still does not scale - which will result to it being bad, or again tweaked mid-tier.

1. Incarnation scales with your gear since it's an overall boost to your damage.
2. Your treants scale from your SP / AP, which again scales as you attain better gear.

3. SoTF is a flat eclipse energy increase, which won't scale because you're still casting the same number of wraths or starfires while in Eclipse. It does smoothen the rotation, but we need for it to scale.

For SOTF (Balance version), what if it was changed to:
While not in an eclipse state, you gain 10% of your damage done as Eclipse energy

This way, you're casting a little less, but you're scaling as you gain better gear - wanna hit that starsurge out of eclipse that crit for 200k? At least you get 20 energy out of it when out of eclipse.

Would like your thoughts too Cyous.
***
Tier Bonus:
I"m really not sure why they're making NG even MORE powerful than it needs to be. Perhaps something like this could be added to make movement fights a little better.

Nature's Grace (redesigned): You gain 15% haste each time you trigger Eclipse. Nature's Grace lasts until you have gained 65 Eclipse energy.

This way, it stays for a static number of casts and even if you have to move during Eclipse, it isn't too harsh.

Moonfire / Sunfire (effect added): Whenever you have an Eclipse-buffed Moonfire or Sunfire on 4 (maybe 3 if it's OP?) or more targets, you gain 1 energy each time they do damage.

The dot change is to prevent Moonkins from camping NG in an early state of Eclipse and just start dotting people up and not cast at all. Once it's rolling on multi-targets, you can't camp anymore.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
For SOTF (Balance version), what if it was changed to:
While not in an eclipse state, you gain 10% of your damage done as Eclipse energy

This way, you're casting a little less, but you're scaling as you gain better gear - wanna hit that starsurge out of eclipse that crit for 200k? At least you get 20 energy out of it when out of eclipse.

That is grossly unpredictable and provides mathematical complexities you never intended. SOFT in it's current concept can never scale beyond that of gear levels. There is literally 0 potential to gain DPS or lose DPS.

With your suggestions, try to not modify Eclipse generation beyond Starfire, Wrath, or Starsurge (and if you do, make it as boring as possible). Cata had awkward numbers, MOP uses a fairly balanced system based on values of 5. Since Eclipse generation is higher per spell in Lunar, you need to consider that Starfire needs to grant more Solar Eclipse than Wrath grants Lunar Eclipse. I would, honestly, leave Eclipse generation alone and design new talent or set bonus ideas.
Edited by Cyous on 1/15/2013 3:36 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
8965
Gear 488 NP rotation near perfect thank you playing boomers since intro. glyphed and enchanted check. So here is the issue. movement fights where everyone can cast but us. makes me look like a nu-b. We balance druids never were top dps im fine with that we can do other things no one els can. But if you worked at it (cata and earlier) your dps could rank at least top 10 of a 25 man. Our burst dps is all we have now. To pop trinks and cd at crucial points in raid fights have become essential. No longer can we even come close to maintaining a level of dps thats eceptable by any means. Run your calculators this is no buff folks this is a nerf a huge one yet again tossed asside like the red headed step child. no love for the beast.
Even our cousins the feral and the gaurdian not only have gotten minor buffs, but usefull glyphs. Sure you can use me as a mount but is that all we are now? am i your pack mule?
No!!!! I can no longer play my kin, its embarasing. Ive rolled a mage and am now doing more dps in dungeons wearing only half blues than my epic kin! makes me sick. we need to unite and let them know. Booms are tired of being pushed aside in pve. thank you thats all i have to say.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15810
01/15/2013 03:35 AMPosted by Cyous
I would, honestly, leave Eclipse generation alone and design new talent or set bonus ideas.

I would, honestly, like to see the Eclipse bar mechanic get scrapped. The whole concept is bad design.
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90 Troll Druid
11620
I would, honestly, leave Eclipse generation alone and design new talent or set bonus ideas.

I would, honestly, like to see the Eclipse bar mechanic get scrapped. The whole concept is bad design.

It's a unique design, but scrapping it would require an expansion to remodel it. So I really could care less about a new core damage model; mostly because it's a waste of time to complain about it.
Edited by Cyous on 1/15/2013 4:42 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
That is grossly unpredictable and provides mathematical complexities you never intended. SOFT in it's current concept can never scale beyond that of gear levels. There is literally 0 potential to gain DPS or lose DPS.


If math is hard, then simplify the math I suppose. I personally feel that energy gain based on damage (out of eclipse) makes for a better model than a static gain since it won't ever scale. It would be unpredictable, but would it be grossly unpredictable? Wrath and Starfire both have different scaling - so a (non-buffed) wrath vs. starfire - starfire would automatically give more energy in the model I'm proposing.

I don't know - I prefer for it to be a scalable option instead of a static one.

As for NG, I really don't know why they're slapping on even more things to it when it is already a huge contributor to so many of the moonkin QoL issues.
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