5.2 Moonkin changes discussion

90 Troll Druid
11620
01/15/2013 06:28 PMPosted by Owlcapwn
That is grossly unpredictable and provides mathematical complexities you never intended. SOFT in it's current concept can never scale beyond that of gear levels. There is literally 0 potential to gain DPS or lose DPS.


If math is hard, then simplify the math I suppose. I personally feel that energy gain based on damage (out of eclipse) makes for a better model than a static gain since it won't ever scale. It would be unpredictable, but would it be grossly unpredictable? Wrath and Starfire both have different scaling - so a (non-buffed) wrath vs. starfire - starfire would automatically give more energy in the model I'm proposing.

I don't know - I prefer for it to be a scalable option instead of a static one.

As for NG, I really don't know why they're slapping on even more things to it when it is already a huge contributor to so many of the moonkin QoL issues.

It's not that A+B=A is hard to figure out, i'ts when you're trying to balance those moments of extreme damage. Like, I had a 4.8mil Starusrge crit on Wind Lord tonight (serious). That would be a 2mil non-crit I think. Given 2mil, that would be 200,000 Eclipse on your suggestion. But if a mechanic, requires me to smack a target with 99% damage reduction, A 100k Starfire would generate 1000 Solar Eclipse. Hopefully that provides some insight.

I'm not shooting down any ideas you're suggesting, but I will point out the flaws, strengths, weaknesses, and exploits. After all, feedback is the only way to make it better!

Soul of the Forest, if you'd like to try to build on this concept, could increase our Eclipse cycling speed, a bonus for reaching Eclipse, or encouraging Eclipse cycling through temporary buffs
Edited by Cyous on 1/16/2013 12:38 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Like, I had a 4.8mil Starusrge crit on Wind Lord tonight (serious). That would be a 2mil non-crit I think. Given 2mil, that would be 200,000 Eclipse on your suggestion. But if a mechanic, requires me to smack a target with 99% damage reduction, A 100k Starfire would generate 1000 Solar Eclipse. Hopefully that provides some insight.


Ah yes - I didn't think about that >< Doh @ me :(

I'm running dry of ideas really ....
Reply Quote
90 Human Monk
17840
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8226552

Balance
- Starfall will no longer strike targets that are affected by crowd control effects.

I wish I had something witty to say about this after so many months of nagging on both beta and live, also the infamous "it requires attention to use", but I'm really out of words.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
6380
Some changes I'd like to see for Boomkins.

1. SotF - Since this has been proven to not be much of a buff at all. Have it add and extra 15% dmg or sp or int to your wrath!

I MISS WRATH!!! I just use it as a way to get back to lunar, it's awful lol. It would also help when we need to quick cast.

2. I'd like us to get survival instincts. Just sayin.

3. Nexian's Wild Mushroom Idea. Pretty much a chance on SF/MF to spawn a wild mushroom at the target. Then you can detonate it once 3 have spawned. It would help our movement dps too.

4. DoC does not need a buff...it needs to be reworked. It's a little stupid to ask a feral to throw away so much utility just trying to enhance their dps. It even worse to ask a boomkin to walk up to a mob and smack him for the same thing. If HotW gives us stats, and NV gives us dmg/healing (which we'll call performance) then they need to think up a new CD for DoC.

I'm thinking this - Increases all dmg and healing by 2%. That's it. That's the dream. Passive, easy, and 2% is not set in stone whatever works with the math.

5. HotW needs a little rework as well. The passive is fine, and if they wanted they could increase it to 8% stats and leave it that way without the activation. Bear form is really the bad one. Have your dodge get increased as well, since you don't grant us savage defense.

That's it for my ideas. I feel I may have hijacked this thread but MEH I shared my thoughts. Feel free to approve or shred lol.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8226552

Balance
- Starfall will no longer strike targets that are affected by crowd control effects.

I wish I had something witty to say about this after so many months of nagging on both beta and live, also the infamous "it requires attention to use", but I'm really out of words.


My jaw will hit the floor if it goes live and actually works like they say. Starfall has been screwed up since they first gave us the spell.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
11620
01/17/2013 03:31 PMPosted by Layuth
My jaw will hit the floor if it goes live and actually works like they say. Starfall has been screwed up since they first gave us the spell.


Now if it just stops hitting targets that are immune to damage!
Edited by Cyous on 1/17/2013 10:20 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
7605
01/16/2013 09:46 PMPosted by Karnudge
2. I'd like us to get survival instincts. Just sayin.


But we already do. Sort of. We have a 12 second si that makes us immune to interrupts, that we can also swap for something else like a cos/ams while it's on cd. Putting it back on the warlock after 3 mins causes you to have the spell again, off cd. If you manage to use it like that, which admittedly isn't always easy, you can get quite a bit out of it.

Sotf still doesn't strike me as something that will be favored by people over Incarnation. As a flat 25% damage buff during Eclipse, Incarnation can be used for sustained aoe, burst phases (damage modifier style fights mostly. Could also include those times you're just racing to kill off a boss before he kills you), to stack with lust/stormlash/skull banner for even greater results, etc. Imo, there are just so many reasons Incarnation is superior that Sotf will probably only be useful where you can't reliably get the full benefit of those 30 seconds of Incarnation.

Currently it's only a welfare option for those very few fights where our superior talent, Incarnation, doesn't work well. The situation is worse in pvp, where there is literally no situation where getting to Eclipse 1 cast faster beats a flat 25% damage boost. If we take something other than Incarnation in Pvp, it will be Trees. To be properly competitive with Incarnation, it needs to either be buffed to look well ahead of Incarnation on paper, or just redesigned entirely.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
21555
Jumping into this thread again just to say that I desperately wish we had more choice talent-wise.

As much as I love my armored moonkin Incarnation, I really do wish that both the 60 and 90 tiers offered talents that would be beneficial in different scenarios. Every other tier I switch talents around depending what I'm doing, the 60 and 90 tier never changes.

I'm not asking for an Incarnation nerf, or further nerfs to Nature's Vigil. I just wish that SotF, FoN, HotW and DoC were buffed and/or changed. I enjoy Incar/NV stacking, but it really sucks free-falling on meters while waiting for the CD. It sucks even more when the CDs and Lunar Eclipse don't align with a big burn phase on a fight. And if we miss the burn, we screw ourselves on damage... since we appear to be entirely balanced around our burst CDs... AND Lunar Eclipse. It would be neat to choose SotF or FoN for more sustained DPS over time, rather than being tied to Incarnation.

And in regards to meter free-falling, please... please give Wrath a little buff. It's so disappointing moving through Solar Eclipse and hitting like a wet noodle. Wrath obviously need to feel different from Starfire, to prevent monotony, but it's just so weak right now.

I've given my opinions on changes to the 90 tier earlier in this post. I only wish that HotW offered balance more than a passive Int increase. It sucks picking up a talent and NEVER USING IT. And if we do dare use it, our damage drops like a rock (in regards to healing, not moon-catting). At least moon-catting was an interesting playstyle when it existed... something I'm not personally fond of, but interesting.

DoC still needs a straight-up revamp. It's clunky, it's annoying, and (I at least) get absolutely no thrill out of using it.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
14820
I just want starfall to not hit targets that are not in combat with the druid but instead are in combat with nearby critters or npc's or enemy faction players, or even same faction players that we are not grouped with. Also 30k wraths with a 2 second cast are lame, please nurf other things and make me not have to cast wrath that hits so softly.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
14635

4. DoC does not need a buff...it needs to be reworked. It's a little stupid to ask a feral to throw away so much utility just trying to enhance their dps. It even worse to ask a boomkin to walk up to a mob and smack him for the same thing. If HotW gives us stats, and NV gives us dmg/healing (which we'll call performance) then they need to think up a new CD for DoC.



If DoC doesn't need a buff, explain why no one in their right mind will use it.

Moonkins picking up NS and throwing out the occasional HT to buff their Dots for 2 casts is a pretty decent way to bring back the Hybrid style into our spec. However...due to the absolute need to maximize cast time, finding that correct person to use your HT is NOT worth it over just macroing it to cast on yourself or a tank who may be at 100% at the time wasting the value of the heal.

I feel the spell should bounce back and forth with what it buffs in all specs.

For example as a Moonkin:

When you cast Wrath/Starfire/Starsurge, you buff your next Healing Touch by 30%. When you cast Healing Touch, you buff your next two Moonfires or Sunfires by 50% (I'm still hoping for the 60-65% buff here though).

I'm still amused that the 4piece t15 bonus pretty much throws SoFT in your face. It should be clear that a talent is bad when you double it's effectiveness and then build a tier bonus around it.

Rule 1 - Scaling is everything.
Rule 2 - All Moonkin Players loathe Treants. I have so many joke videos of treants doing the stupidest things possible over the years where I was forced to summon them for a "hopeful" DPS increase. I'm looking at the Treant buff as a PvP buff since it will help them out there...but I refuse to ever pick up that talent in PvE unless I'm being a deliberate troll.
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
15945
01/17/2013 08:09 PMPosted by Velaniz
But we already do. Sort of. We have a 12 second si that makes us immune to interrupts, that we can also swap for something else like a cos/ams while it's on cd. Putting it back on the warlock after 3 mins causes you to have the spell again, off cd. If you manage to use it like that, which admittedly isn't always easy, you can get quite a bit out of it.


No.

Moonkins need a defensive cd. End of story. Not something we get from symbiosis , they really just need to take symbiosis out of Arena and Rbgs ( Or the Game ). It is just too imbalanced.. Awful level 87 talent imo.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Druid
21555
I'm not a huge fan of Symbiosis, but you can't deny that it gives us a lot of customization in a PVP environment (I'm talking BGs, not arenas). I've been rather happy with it in PVP lately.

With Displacer Beast, Symbiosis, glyphed Barkskin, Typhoon, Nature's Grasp, Travel Form, and Vortex/Mighty Bash... I feel that our survivability is fine. The key is to pick your fights and to play intelligently. Most moonkin I see in BGs run off on their own against 2+ melee or some other large group of enemies. Fighting a group solo or getting focus-fired on the frontlines is suicide for most classes, not just balance druids.

We're fine in the survivability department.
Edited by Tree on 1/19/2013 6:15 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Druid
15945
'm not a huge fan of Symbiosis, but you can't deny that it gives us a lot of customization in a PVP environment (I'm talking BGs, not arenas). I've been rather happy with it in PVP lately.

With Displacer Beast, Symbiosis, glyphed Barkskin, Typhoon, Nature's Grasp, Travel Form, and Vortex/Mighty Bash... I feel that our survivability is fine. The key is to pick your fights and to play intelligently. Most moonkin I see in BGs run off on their own against 2+ melee or some other large group of enemies. Fighting a group solo or getting focus-fired on the frontlines is suicide for most classes, not just balance druids.

We're fine in the survivability department.


While we may have the tools to survive in a random bg ... That is not really the case in Arena unless you are playing with a lock , and even then we are pretty easy to train into the ground.
Reply Quote
Been reading through the thread, and I already see tons of suggestions so I won't add too many of my own. But a few key ideas I walked away from the thread with (and therefore hope a dev would as well):

1) Eclipse being asymmetric is causing as many problems as any. Starfire and wrath should probably be completely equalized, and then it might be nice if balance wild mushroom were changed to a 1.5m CD that could compete with starfall and reset on solar-eclipse state.

2) In general, heals should not be added to a DPS specs rotation (DoC). A talent or spell that functions as a CD is good. A talent or spell that makes it possible to heal better is good. If it adds a heal passively while buffing DPS it's awesome. But if it requires healing to function, it becomes clunky.

3) We often find ourselves "out of position" on the eclipse bar. I imagine CA was meant to fix that, but then CA turned around and just became another CD because it activates both at once. It might be better if AC was a 40s CD that gave up to 100 energy over 2s and could be cast while moving. (I understand this is tricky. You don't want it so good that it gets used on CD just to "skip" to lunar)

4) We are in desperate need of something to mitigate how poorly we handle movement. I personally wouldn't mind if it was something as simple as "starsurge procs now stack to 3", would that be wierd or OP?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
6380
What about if we could cast our eclipsed spells while moving?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Been away for about 10+ days juggling work, but kept reading w/out posting here. We're inching ever closer to 5.2, and it's astonishing and disheartening at the same time to see that we've seen zero mechanical changes after any moonkin patch notes were first introduced.

I'm gonna try and post another long on here that sort of shows my stance on things as they stand right now - since my initial post and a few more in between.

I'll preface my gripe by asking this: Moonkins, in your world, seem to be the perfect spec. They've received minimal changes since MoP in live, and they're seeing a few adjustments in 5.2, even though those said adjustments have raised a lot of questions in the minds of the same moonkin players who have been extremely patient, and highly constructive with feedback. My post may sound condescending, and it is probably so, but in all honesty, I'm fed up with devs not replying to even a single moonkin issue that has been raised since MoP release.

1. I'm assuming moonkins have the perfect DPS rotation and spell interactivity because they need zero glyphs to enhance and/or alter their DPS spells via means of Glyphs - a very important feature for just about everyone else.

2. I'm assuming Moonkins are your wild card - because we're also the unique spec that has zero value for their mastery under perfect conditions - for 50% of the duration of an encounter. Of course, in less than perfect conditions (i.e. just about all the time), mastery has an absolute zero value (read: the out of eclipse phase) more than 50% of the time in game.

3. Moonkin AOE is already suffering, and yet, we've seen zero QoL (not DPS) changes on mushrooms, or hurricane/astral storm. The latter 2 are the oldest "mechanic" AE in the game still - i.e. target reticule based AE which is stationery and channeled. I guess we need a page out of Vanilla WoW for nostalgic purposes, so why not let moonkins be the historians.

4. The changing rotation type set bonuses are not at all fun and they should be done with. This was already mentioned in Beta - many many times - and you happily chose to go ahead with our current 4-Pc anyway. First, our rotation changed when we got our existing 4-PC, at least this time, it was for the better. Now with T15, the rotation will change yet again.

We (as in players, not particularly me) did warn you about this in Beta that rotation-changing set bonuses are NOT good, but you seemingly didn't listen.

5. Breaking synergy of two spells on two tiers is not good - either break it off completely (i.e. remove them stacking) and buff the spells individually, or make do with the synergy staying intact and changing the frequency / output. One of the choices on the DPS cooldown tier, SOTF, does not scale with gear, and as such, will never be as good as the other two counterparts. Isn't that what you want to do away with? For choices to be as close as possible?

6. Is there please any form of communication about DoC and/or HOTW that we can receive? They're both just impossible to squeeze out in PVE encounters, or make the gameplay just needlessly complicated. You have simplified Feral a lot because it was too high a skillcap, and Balance is getting right there.

As Cyous has pointed out already - this spec has way too small a margin for error, and when you play absolutely perfectly, then you're about middle of the pack. All of these tiny things are adding up and making the spec un-fun. Please devs, I'm happy being middle of the pack, but with when I put in a lot more effort into my spec than many others, and yet get abysmal result due to relaxing for maybe 3-4 seconds - it gets really frustrating.

Edit: Also, Frogs get new model updates before Moonkins. :( /cry
Edited by Owlcapwn on 1/24/2013 6:31 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Druid
7190
the new displacer is a HUGE nerf now imo. simply symb a rogue, which will be in most rbgs again, get cloak and macro it to displacer. Won't matter if you're dotted up, just make sure you didn't have any bleeds on. Can't do that anymore :(
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]