I think Blizzard is overlooking something...

I apologize ahead of time, this is another dailies vs dungeons thread. I know this has been talked about to no end, and I've been following Blizzard's comments to the community on the subject, but I think there is a part of the discussion that has been overlooked, and I'm curious about everyone's take on it.

Mid-way through Wrath of the Lich King blizzard took a completely new approach to leveling. It was not only new to WoW, but as far as I know it was new to the entire MMORPG world.

Dungeon finder.

This one feature allowed you to level a toon as a tank or a healer from start to finish and expect, as long as you could get decently quick queue times (and to begin with atleast, they were instant, regardless of role) that you would get XP per hour on par with questing as a DPS spec.

No longer did you feel like to, in order to avoid leveling at between 25% - 50% of the rate a DPS class/spec would level, you HAD to be DPS, but you could be learning SOMETHING about your spec as you leveled.

Previous to this most players leveled as DPS, and built a healing or tank spec at max level, then spent days or weeks pouring over theorycrafted material to learn their specs at max level where they were suddenly introduced to the entire spec all at once with no concept of synergies until they jumped in, head first, into an instance. And heaven forbid your first several instances were pug heroics picked up out of trade, since you were likely to, at best, cause the group to fail. At worst you could expect to be kicked from the group and replaced with a geared player in your role.

This is where I learned to heal. First on a druid that I had always planned to heal on, but was scared to level. I wasn't fond of either of the druid's DPS specs, and waiting in whatever leveling hub I was closest to in order to pick up a dungeon group spamming general didn't appeal to me.

Now with the introduction of dungeon finder, I was able to level the toon in the manner I wanted. I have since leveled 3 healers to atleast 85, and 2 more at on their way up. Most of them quested to 15, and only completed in-dungeons quests until getting to MOP, at which point they did the bare minimum quests, or I bought gear off the AH to get them into dungeons.

Now suddenly with this expansion at level cap, I HAVE to have a DPS off spec in order to see all the content before new content patches ship. I haven't even SEEN shadow form on this toon since level 30 when I played with it for an hour after buying dual spec.

To get back to my original point, I don't think blizzard has thought about the number of toons that were leveled strictly to be in the non-damage rolls. Most of my healing toons saw little-to-no DPS use except goofing off at end game because I was in raids where I took the gear simply to avoid DE.

I understand the approach of "For the previous two expansions players have sat in he main cities and completely ignored the wide world that we have created. We feel like our player base is missing out on so much", but we're asking for a better solution than "You have two specs, and DPS is now required to gear up at a rate similar to previous expansions."

Can we get gear strictly from dungeons and raids? Sure.

Will 5.2 be out before I get to see even raid-finder versions of the later parts of 5.1? More than likely.

If you want us to see your dailies, fine. But what about making it only required for one toon? I'm sure there are lots of non-DPS mains that have DPS alts that could be leveled. Make the tabards that are only available at exalted give dungeon rep and be account bound. Or give an account bound exalted only commendation similar to previous expansions.

Not an item that still requires us to do all the reps to unlock all the valor items, but reduces the grind time, but something we can send to our non-DPS toons that we would prefer to only play in a group, after we have gotten through the grind once on a toon. I don't think it's prefect, but I think it's alot better solution than we've heard so far.

tdlr; I understand dailies aren't going away, Blizzard wants us to see this beautiful new continent they have created, but with 5 healing toons I don't want to see it 5 times in order to get geared for end-game in less than 4 months. We need some compromise, and only requiring a rep grind on a single toon is one solution. What have you got?
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You can do dailes as Disc quite easily. I hit revered with Golden Lotus, Shado-pan, and August Celestials as Disc.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
That's what dual spec is for. Switch to a dps spec and if you don't have gear for that spec, fly to Len at Arm the Adventuring Supplies vendor on top of the wall just west of Setting Sun Garrison in the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. That gear is plenty good enough to do daily quests.

It's fine to only use a toon in healing spec, but don't expect to receive benefits from content you ignore. During WotLK and Cata there were plenty of benefits that could only be obtained by doing something out in the world. That has continued to be true in MoP. There's just more daily quests for factions now. The rep quests are a lot like it was in BC. Many love to say that BC was the best xpac and then go on to say how much the MoP daily quests are stupid. I think they've conveniently forgotten the rep grinding that was needed early in BC to get the best rewards.

Yes I get annoyed with doing daily quests for factions, but that's why I don't do them every day. At least it now seems like you're actually doing something for that faction instead of killing any random mob in dungeons.
Edited by Mitimem on 12/25/2012 3:45 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
The rep grinding that was early in BC was dungeon based. People do seem to conveniently forget that. :P You did dungeons associated with a particular rep, and you supplemented them with turn-ins like Coilfang Armaments. You could do this as a healer without having to respec for dps. The entire expansion was heavily based around dungeons, dungeon questing, and various attunements all earned through - you guessed it - dungeons! I loved it because I loved doing heroics, but I know there are many who don't.

There were were no [required] daily quest rep grinds in BC until Shattered Sun - and it was new, and exciting, and of course it was fun. Because we hadn't all been doing it for 6 years already. :P Netherwing, Skyguard and OgriLa were entirely optional, purely cosmetic. (Like Cloud Serpent today.) One of my favorites, the grind in Nagraand for the talbuks, required nothing but endlessly killing ogres to steal their beads - and for me, things like that are the most fun. Yes it's mindless (watch tv, listen to music, chat with friends during) - but it happened as fast or slow as I wished it. It wasn't completed at a set pace (daily cap).

And even with that, you still had turn-ins and bonus summoning thingers that you could farm and collect to speed up the process, it wasn't gated entirely by the quests.

I think that's what burns my bacon: That questing is the "only" way. You cannot supplement it by summing elite mobs via item collection, or doing a turn-in, or running an associated dungeon (no tabard thing, just, like, Mogu Dungeon for GL rep, etc).
Edited by Fluffy on 12/25/2012 8:36 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
13010
What have I got?

Well, I've got the GL rep token - makes each new character get through that particular gear gate much faster.

I've got foreknowledge of all the dailies, and the tricks to doing them quickly, neither of which I had on my paladin.

I have the ability to get into the LFR faster on each successive character as time goes on, because the prices for various things go down. Additionally, more things become available at higher ilvls over time.

What do I not have?

Time - I don't have time to maintain 3 characters in the LFR any more. Someone is going to get left behind, and it's probably going to be my Warrior. I just don't have the time to do enough dailies on all 3 for Coins, and run 100% of the LFR's on all 3.

Should Blizzard reach out, and do something to help me?

Nope.

12/24/2012 10:35 PMPosted by Ceedee
I HAVE to have a DPS off spec in order to see all the content before new content patches ship.


This is not true. Dungeon gear gets you into the LFR system, and the LFR system is (thus far), self-sustaining, as long as your ilvl floor is 463. Is it possible that you won't get enough pieces before the new content ships? Sure. Is it likely? No.

Remember that YOU are the type of player that makes up the bulk of the playerbase, and they build this game mostly with YOU in mind. You don't *have* to have a DPS spec, or do a single daily, to see all of the content on at least one character.

What bothers me about your post, is that it's disingenuous. You use this big backstory to cover the fact that you just don't want to put out the effort necessary to sustain your preferred playstyle (gear up at a rate similar to last expansion) on more than one character.

This is no different from anything else - you get out of it, what you put into it. If you can't (or won't) put more into it, I just don't understand how you have the nerve to ask for more out of it.

Riôt
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
12/25/2012 08:34 AMPosted by Fluffy
The rep grinding that was early in BC was dungeon based. People do seem to conveniently forget that. :P You did dungeons associated with a particular rep, and you supplemented them with turn-ins like Coilfang Armaments

Not all factions had dungeon methods to gain rep and for some dungeon grinding was the slower path to exalted.

Kurenai, Mag'har, Netherwing, Ogri'la and Sha'tari Skyguard had no method to gain rep via dungeons. Most factions didn't reward rep in normal modes once Honored was reached and LFD didn't exist, so you could do that heroic once a day when you found a group willing to go. That made daily quests and world grinding the fastest route to exalted for Sporeggar, Shattered Sun Offensive and Consortium. Grinding out in the world was the reality in BC and that's the same for MoP.
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90 Human Monk
10240
I don't understand why giving people options is a bad thing. The only argument that makes sense from Blizzard's point of view is: "We made this content, we think it's great and you're going to do it." Okay, I accept that. The dailies were pretty okay the first few times I did them. I loved exploring the world. As it stands now, I'm sick of it and I'd love to have a way for my alts to get the valor items without having to do them over and over and over and over again. This insistence that we play the way you want us to play is absurd. Give us options.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
12/25/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Mitimem
The rep grinding that was early in BC was dungeon based. People do seem to conveniently forget that. :P You did dungeons associated with a particular rep, and you supplemented them with turn-ins like Coilfang Armaments

Not all factions had dungeon methods to gain rep and for some dungeon grinding was the slower path to exalted.

Kurenai, Mag'har, Netherwing, Ogri'la and Sha'tari Skyguard had no method to gain rep via dungeons. Most factions didn't reward rep in normal modes once Honored was reached and LFD didn't exist, so you could do that heroic once a day when you found a group willing to go. That made daily quests and world grinding the fastest route to exalted for Sporeggar, Shattered Sun Offensive and Consortium. Grinding out in the world was the reality in BC and that's the same for MoP.


You completely disregarded that I mentioned those purely cosmetic value reps in my post and that they did not have associated dungeons. That was pointed out - as was the fact that you could grind them all at your own pace with or without questing.

The point of course, being that there were optional ways to get said reps. There was not only one way (questing) to do it. There were things you could kill, items you could get, and the only gate was time - not an artificial gate set by 'dailies.'

Not to mention these reps were for the most part vanity item reps, gear was not locked behind them. :P (Of course you don't need any of the gated gear in MoP for raiding, but try telling people that. >.>)
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
I put my Disc priest into raids without doing a single MoP daily. You really don't have to. I decided I didn't want to bother doing rep on more than one toon and it's not a big deal. The gear rewards are nice, but some gear from rep quartermasters is already outdated and the rest will be soon enough.

The only faction that has cosmetic or vanity only rewards in BC was Netherwing. The rest sell gear that at one point during BC was desirable. MoP also does include some means of unlimited rep grinding. Dread Amber Shards for Klaxxi rep. Ancient Guo-Lai Cache Key for Lotus rep. There's Onyx Egg for Cloud Serpent. Rep is a lot more like it was during BC and rep by doing dungeons only in BC was very gated. A heroic could only be done once per day. There was no bypassing the lockout through LFD. How is rep from 1 daily heroic any different than rep from daily quests? The heroics were essentially daily quests.

Tabard rep was just convenience and that's what those complaining really miss. It didn't make much sense from a storyline perspective to be able to throw on a tabard and gain rep with any faction you want. I have no problem with Blizz encouraging players to not just sit in cities and queue. If specific dungeons awarded specific rep then many players would stay in cities all the time queuing for LFD.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
12/25/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Mitimem
How is rep from 1 daily heroic any different than rep from daily quests? The heroics were essentially daily quests.


One is group content, one is solo content. I prefer group content, personally. That is why I prefer doing heroics for rep.

... Blizz encouraging players to not just sit in cities and queue. If specific dungeons awarded specific rep then many players would stay in cities all the time queuing for LFD.


If Blizz didn't want people using the LFD to queue for dungeons from within cities, they shouldn't have created the LFD. ;) It's the ultimate tool of convenience and they don't like the result. I don't like the result either.

I preferred the days where you formed a group from people on your realm, developed reputations for being good or bad, made friends, and had to ride your mount or a flightpath through the lovely world to the instance, rather than simply being teleported there to an anonymous group of people you will never see again where your performance has little to no bearing on the outcome or your future time in game.

Ah.. but I digress.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
That's what dual spec is for. Switch to a dps spec


What if you're guardian/resto? (Or prot/holy, or brew/mist.)

(Yeah, I know, you can do dailies as either. I have. That doesn't fix the *real* dps-spec-only content, which would require more spec slots to avoid needing the content redesigned so that multiple roles can succeed at it.)
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90 Worgen Druid
6425
12/26/2012 05:25 AMPosted by Calonderiel
That's what dual spec is for. Switch to a dps spec

What if you're guardian/resto? (Or prot/holy, or brew/mist.)


I play tank/healers. It is not difficult to do dailies as a tank, you just have to grab 2+ mobs at the same time. Although I would have much rather go out in the world as a healer. There are certainly many creative ways to allow healers to do dailies (e.x. self healing causes moderate AoE damage etc.) but Blizzard lacks creativity.

In fact, dailies are just the absolute evidence that Blizzard developers lack creativity to solve the "stuck in the City" problem with something worthwhile and fun. What developers came up with was Dailies? Seriously? Like get me 10 apples and get me 12 stones, type of dailies. Terrible, just terrible. I CANNOT believe the complete lack of creativity to develop a fun way to get people outside the Cities.

The only reason we still play this crappy game with crappy dailies is because all other MMO companies have failed to make the necessary investment to create polished, fun innovative MMOs. SWTOR? Tera? The Secret World? All not ready for primetime and terribly lacking in content.

I dont expect Blizzard to find a better way for geting Rep than boring dailies or find a way to allow for getting rep as a non-dps. In my opinion, they just dont get it. They do not understand that things that are not fun should not be included in the game in the first place and that they should not force people to play as DPS if they dont want to.
Edited by Leneas on 12/26/2012 6:36 AM PST
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LFD wasn't implemented as a means for healers for level because they couldn't dps well doing quests. It was implemented as a way to get groups faster. The fact that a healer could queue quickly and do lots of them was really just a great side benefit, but was never the primary purpose for this tool.

I leveled this healer in vanilla and then next ten levels in BC, etc. and none of the healers I knew, including myself, waited until max level to play as a healer. I leveled as Holy and kept a full dps set of gear in my bags.

Dailies are a cake walk as Disc, I never use my shadow spec and I am having no problems at all and blow them just as fast as others. I know because I see the dps doing the same stages of each set right along with me.
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90 Human Paladin
10740
12/24/2012 11:24 PMPosted by Oungan
You can do dailes as Disc quite easily. I hit revered with Golden Lotus, Shado-pan, and August Celestials as Disc.


It can be done. It takes significantly longer.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
12/26/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Leneas
they should not force people to play as DPS if they dont want to.

You aren't forced to ever. You don't have to play any content. Some players don't do dungeons at all. Some don't do quests. Some never do pvp. Not all content is designed or intended for all playstyles or class roles. That's why Blizzard created dual spec and the armor set UI.

Don't complain that Blizzard lacks creativity when you choose to play two roles intended for group content. You limited yourself, not Blizzard.
Edited by Mitimem on 12/26/2012 5:07 PM PST
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