Too much Focus on Disc while Holy Rots

90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
GC also agrees it's too good and is nerfing it.

A cd on POH while SS is active could work
Lower the shield limit
The shield no longer stacking up but with mastery working again

Plenty of options, no need for the bubble bot, I played priest in wrath, I know how it was.

Why is everyone so aggressive? just trying to have a reasonable discussion.


You don't even have a level 90 Priest.

You haven't raided the content.

But you feel you are qualified to talk about nerfing our main raid CD this tier.

Sorry, but no. Please go away.
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90 Troll Priest
12105


Tragically for you, GC seems to disagree and wants SS to remain a part of our arsenal.

Also, I'll be damned if the spec goes back to bubble bots from Wrath. Please, play your Warlock more and stay out of Priest things.


GC also agrees it's too good and is nerfing it.

A cd on POH while SS is active could work
Lower the shield limit
The shield no longer stacking up but with mastery working again

Plenty of options, no need for the bubble bot, I played priest in wrath, I know how it was.

Why is everyone so aggressive? just trying to have a reasonable discussion.


You are receiving a negative response because your entire argument is opinion, no solid backing. You, yourself, stated that you have no lvl 90 priest nor any lvl 90 experience besides your lock (raid experience not mentioned). And yet, you are demanding changes that would drastically impact disc priests... Changes that are not founded in any facts or logs, just your perception of "SSh is too good".

Emotion and opinions, without factual backing, will generate emotional responses. If you wanted a reasonable discussion, you should have started one. You didn't with statements like:

Spirit shell needs to go/be redesigned, it's too good

Removing POH from it would already go a long way
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Vear, I wanna be like you when I grow up!
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90 Undead Priest
9140
Our output in holy is far, far, far from being bad. I honestly felt like I might be deserving of a nerf, but of course I would never admit that, having too much fun ;) However we definitely don't need buffs. (I wouldn't be against removing chakra, though! A fun, yet annoying thing to deal with all at the same time.)

Mana regen a problem in holy? I disagree. With good use of PW:Solace, Shadowfiend, and Hymn of Hope, I'm never standing around and next to never have mana issues unless things go wrong (tank never moving the protector on elegon out of the middle is always fun!). I feel we're much better than most on mana as is.

Yes, I've only touched normal modes thus far this tier (save for some bad heroic dogs attempts), but I believe my points hold true in comparison to other healers.

SS could probably use a (slight) nerf to make it less effective in completely trivializing things such as force and verve, but holy is capable of dealing with it as well, just not as effectively.

Unless the fight has something, such as force and verve, that calls for being disc for progression, I'll be sticking the holy. None of the problems you mentioned, while being what I believe to be the funner of the two specs.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9970
you want to put a cd on PoH during SS? it wouild make it essentially a cd for 5 mans or tank healing exclusively. we already have a tank cd thanks.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
Holy's a perfectly fine spec with no major issues. True, it doesn't meter !@#$% as well as Disc when you're overhealing content, but it's fine. It has fabulous cooldowns and excellent controlled, predictable, bursty healing. Oh, and it does great damage. It really doesn't need tweaking beyond the spillover from Disc.

The spec that's being neglected right now is resto (druid).


Pretty much this.

But think about it. Imagine the Chakras were the exact same thing except they were standard cooldown burst abilities. So you could activate "Chakra: Serenity" and it would stay around for 30 sec, and then go away. They'd be the conceptually the same as those Discipline cooldowns.


Using only Inner Fire:

Disc's PoH (with DA): 28907 (+19546) = 48453
Holy's PoH: 29041

Now with Chakra: Sanctuary:

Holy's PoH: 36301

Would you care to revise your statement?
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1 Gnome Warlock
0
GC also agrees it's too good and is nerfing it.

A cd on POH while SS is active could work
Lower the shield limit
The shield no longer stacking up but with mastery working again

Plenty of options, no need for the bubble bot, I played priest in wrath, I know how it was.

Why is everyone so aggressive? just trying to have a reasonable discussion.


You don't even have a level 90 Priest.

You haven't raided the content.

But you feel you are qualified to talk about nerfing our main raid CD this tier.

Sorry, but no. Please go away.


Everyone, with the curious exception of Disc Priests, knows how broken Spirit Shell is. Hmmm.

Can you tell me why the strongest healing cooldown in the game, perhaps ever, is on a one minute cooldown?
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90 Pandaren Priest
11270

Everyone, with the curious exception of Disc Priests, knows how broken Spirit Shell is. Hmmm.

Can you tell me why the strongest healing cooldown in the game, perhaps ever, is on a one minute cooldown?

Are you completely oblivious to the massive thread from disc priests asking for us to be nerfed? There is no sane priest in this forum who thinks we're fine. We do like laughing at mistweavers because of last tier, sure, but we also know that a series of nerfs are needed.

Personally, I'd be happy to see:
DA to 40%
Rapture to stay at 200% with the change to temporary spirit buffs still going into play
SS to no longer be effected by mastery and the CD doubled to two minutes
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


You don't even have a level 90 Priest.

You haven't raided the content.

But you feel you are qualified to talk about nerfing our main raid CD this tier.

Sorry, but no. Please go away.


Everyone, with the curious exception of Disc Priests, knows how broken Spirit Shell is. Hmmm.

Can you tell me why the strongest healing cooldown in the game, perhaps ever, is on a one minute cooldown?


Of course most Disc Priests are not going to be itching to post "omg I am so OP please nerf me" - that thread notwithstanding.

Spirit Shell isn't the strongest cooldown in the game; and it really isn't as strong as Healing Tide, Tranquility, Divine Hymn or arguably Devo Aura/SLT/PW:Barrier depending on the situation. It takes quite a significant output of mana and several seconds of preperation time to use effectively. The only reason it looks like the strongest CD ever is that it can be used 3 times as often as every major CD making it account for a completely ridiculous amount of output.

That said, I don't really care whether they nerf Spirit Shell or not, or how they go about doing it, but the unmistakable fact remains that Disc doesn't just need a nerf, it needs to be absolutely gutted somewhere to the extent of an overall 25-30% nerf over where it is on live. I am not convinced that the nerfs announced so far will be more than 5-10%, so there should be plenty more to come. Any one that denies severe nerfs are necessary is delusional.

From a raid viability standpoint, absorbs are always going to be more valuable than actual healing. If anything, Disc output needs to be at or near the bottom of healing specs, because you can't look at effective healing and value absorb based output at the same level as healing based output - absorbs are simply better in every way in terms of raid survivability. By all rights, Disc should be nerfed to be about 10% below Holy in terms of overall raw output. Holy has always been designed to be the raw output priest spec with Disc being the raid survivability/utility spec. Whenever Disc is at or above the total throughput of Holy, Holy will just be under-utilized. (outside of fights where Guardian Spirit is needed), because it will be better for the raid in every way. I think Holy's output is where it needs to be, and I think Paladin/Druid/Shaman/Monk output are also close to where they need to be. Disc just needs to be nerfed into the ground and healing will be in a very good spot for balance.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
01/04/2013 05:49 PMPosted by Tiberria
Disc just needs to be nerfed into the ground and healing will be in a very good spot for balance.


Sounds like you want it to go back to where it was at the start of the expansion, which was "mostly undesirable". A 25-30% nerf would do just that. In fact, it would probably be worse.

By all rights, Disc should be nerfed to be about 10% below Holy in terms of overall raw output. Holy has always been designed to be the raw output priest spec with Disc being the raid survivability/utility spec.


Except for the past two expansions, where Blizzard has very clearly been trying to push Disc as capable of heavier throughput?
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90 Human Priest
11345
Using only Inner Fire:

Disc's PoH (with DA): 28907 (+19546) = 48453
Holy's PoH: 29041

Now with Chakra: Sanctuary:

Holy's PoH: 36301

Would you care to revise your statement?


You should add Echoes of Light in there.

You also can't just compare PoH. Holy's PoM and level 90 talents are a lot stronger in sanctuary than the same spells as disc.

Not saying disc wouldn't still be ahead, but it won't be quite as big of a gap.
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90 Tauren Priest
12030
Wait, Holy is rotting? Where the hell have I been?

Granted, it could use a few tweaks, but we're far from being underpowered, imo.

This spec is the love of my life. <3
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90 Goblin Warlock
7555

SS to no longer be effected by mastery and the CD doubled to two minutes


SS not being effected by mastery feels like a pretty shoddy design choice IMO.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110

SS to no longer be effected by mastery and the CD doubled to two minutes


SS not being effected by mastery feels like a pretty shoddy design choice IMO.


In GC's twitter, he seemed to feel that Mastery's level of scaling with all of Disc's tools, but especially SS, is the issue. o_O Along with Rapture, of course.
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90 Human Paladin
15450


SS not being effected by mastery feels like a pretty shoddy design choice IMO.


In GC's twitter, he seemed to feel that Mastery's level of scaling with all of Disc's tools, but especially SS, is the issue. o_O Along with Rapture, of course.


We also have way too many fights with damage modifier this tier. When your filler heal hits for 130k thats a bit much. If not for the fact that atonement is capped at 30% of the priest's health, on some fights it will easily go over 130k per hit.
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90 Night Elf Priest
12265
Am I the only person who feels that HW:Sanctuary is still just god awful?
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90 Human Priest
16665
01/05/2013 02:42 AMPosted by Jane
Am I the only person who feels that HW:Sanctuary is still just god awful?

You're not: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7200050232

And bringing the spec out thematically is something I'd lobby for: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714?page=1#2
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11255
01/04/2013 05:03 PMPosted by Elethia
Would you care to revise your statement?


As soon as you explain how your objection has anything whatsoever to do with what I wrote.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13490
Using only Inner Fire:

Disc's PoH (with DA): 28907 (+19546) = 48453
Holy's PoH: 29041

Now with Chakra: Sanctuary:

Holy's PoH: 36301

Would you care to revise your statement?


You should add Echoes of Light in there.

You also can't just compare PoH. Holy's PoM and level 90 talents are a lot stronger in sanctuary than the same spells as disc.

Not saying disc wouldn't still be ahead, but it won't be quite as big of a gap.


Good catch.

With EoL, best case scenario puts the PoH+EoL healing at about 42472 in Chakra.
Without Chakra: 33106.

By rights, yes, it would be a good idea to compare PoM, the 90s, Sanctuary, CoH, etc, but it's much harder to accurately forecast the appropriate numbers for Disc because DA affects them only on crits.

01/05/2013 07:12 AMPosted by Medeyn
As soon as you explain how your objection has anything whatsoever to do with what I wrote.


In it's current form, it is a penalty. No other healer must swap and maintain stances at all times to pull their weight and remain competitive with other healers nor is any other healer forced to make a trade-off in terms of power. Asking Holy to forget that they're suddenly healing at 75% power (at best) in one of two areas whenever they make a stance choice is absurd.

You're also apparently forgetting that Chakra did fade after 30 seconds until 4.0.6, where it was bumped to 1 minute. It was changed again in 4.1, set to last until canceled. Only it did about the same thing it does now and you had to constantly refresh it—and god forbid something went sideways in raid and you suddenly needed to be in the other stance, but couldn't because it still had 20 seconds left on CD.

If Blizzard wants to re-conceptualize Chakra as an actual cooldown that isn't ridiculously punitive, then I'm sure the players would be ecstatic. If it were on a minute, or two minute, or three minute cooldown and was a burst CD, it'd be amazing. Obviously numbers would need to be tweaked, but it would be a far better ability than it currently is.

I'm 100% sure that Chakra, in its current form, could turn passive and Holy's numbers wouldn't be drastically higher.
Edited by Elethia on 1/5/2013 8:38 AM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105


You should add Echoes of Light in there.

You also can't just compare PoH. Holy's PoM and level 90 talents are a lot stronger in sanctuary than the same spells as disc.

Not saying disc wouldn't still be ahead, but it won't be quite as big of a gap.


Good catch.

With EoL, best case scenario puts the PoH+EoL healing at about 42472 in Chakra.
Without Chakra: 33106.

01/05/2013 07:12 AMPosted by Medeyn
As soon as you explain how your objection has anything whatsoever to do with what I wrote.


In it's current form, it is a penalty. No other healer must swap and maintain stances at all times to pull their weight and remain competitive with other healers who are using no CDs to buff their healing, unless you want to consider Spirit Shell a stance (and even then you're not actually losing anything by being in it) nor is any other healer forced to make a trade-off in terms of power. Asking Holy to forget that they're suddenly healing at 75% power (at best) in one of two areas whenever they make a stance choice is absurd.

You're also apparently forgetting that Chakra did fade after 30 seconds until 4.0.6, where it was bumped to 1 minute. It was changed again in 4.1, set to last until canceled. Only it did about the same thing it does now and you had to constantly refresh it—and god forbid something went sideways in raid and you suddenly needed to be in the other stance, but couldn't because it still had 20 seconds left on CD.

If Blizzard wants to re-conceptualize Chakra as an actual cooldown that isn't ridiculously punitive, then I'm sure the players would be ecstatic. If it were on a minute, or two minute, or three minute cooldown and was a burst CD, it'd be amazing. Obviously numbers would need to be tweaked, but it would be a far better ability than it currently is.

I'm 100% sure that Chakra, in its current form, could turn passive and Holy's numbers wouldn't be drastically higher.


I think that other specs have things that are similar to Chakra in terms of being penalties for switching primary targets, etc.

For example
-Paladins - If you need to move Beacon because of a tank switch, it uses a GCD (or a major glyph slot to remove the GCD) and incurs a CD. Before 5.0, there was no glyph and it cost mana
-Druids - Need to move Lifebloom on tank switches. At least it can be glyphed now to move 3 stacks with 1 GCD instead of needing 3
-Disc - Need to restack Grace to get the full effect of their single target heals when switching targets
-Shaman - Need to move Earth Shield and get 20% less output on targets without it up.

Most other specs have annoying, punitive mechanics for switching tank healing/primary healing targets; Holy Priests don't have any of those; they just have one for switching healing roles.

On top of that, Chakra is off the GCD and can be just macroed into spells. There's nothing stopping you from macroing Chakra: Sanctuary into PoH and Chakra: Serenity into Greater Heal. Granted, you won't be able to switch them more than every 30 seconds, but you can pretty much remove the annoyance factor through macros if you want.

They could get rid of the mechanic altogether and make Chakra an Ascedance/Tree Form type throughput cooldown, sure. However, they would then have to nerf Holy Priest output outside of having the CD up to compensate for the increased output with the cooldown up. You would not get the output of each spell in its' appropriate Chakra rolled baseline, plus a new throughput CD on top of that.

I also don't necessarily think that being that tied into throughput cooldowns is something that you necessarily would even want. For example, I think Resto Shaman throughput is far too tied into CDs. Upwards of 30% of our output comes from Healing Tide and Ascendance. As a result, our output is really quite weak at all times except when those cooldowns are up (and is near the bottom of healing specs to begin with). I would much rather see one of those CDs go away in exchange for stronger sustained output rather than effectively be the Ret Pallies of healing specs.
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