Too much Focus on Disc while Holy Rots

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9515
Paladins:

If you can't afford the GCD to swap to the tank, it doesn't matter because you're probably already hard healing that tank. You can swap Beacon to him when healing is less intense and you can turn your attention elsewhere.

Actually...this should never be an issue anyway, because glyphed Beacon is off the GCD. And free. And has a 3-second CD.

Disc is the spec that's most comparable to Holy in terms of frustration with a gimped toolkit: a disc priest is basically in Chakra: Sanctuary full-time except on targets they've already been healing in the last 15 seconds. Honestly, it sucks for both, both mechanics can go die in a fire, and no other healer really has anything comparable.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
I'm only pointing out parses because that's what Tiberria did. He's going off raidbots to say Disc needs nerfs, the same can easily be said for any class comparable to Disc if that's his way of assessing how buffs and nerfs need to be handled.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
Paladins:

If you can't afford the GCD to swap to the tank, it doesn't matter because you're probably already hard healing that tank. You can swap Beacon to him when healing is less intense and you can turn your attention elsewhere.

Actually...this should never be an issue anyway, because glyphed Beacon is off the GCD. And free. And has a 3-second CD.

Disc is the spec that's most comparable to Holy in terms of frustration with a gimped toolkit: a disc priest is basically in Chakra: Sanctuary full-time except on targets they've already been healing in the last 15 seconds. Honestly, it sucks for both, both mechanics can go die in a fire, and no other healer really has anything comparable.


Well, there you go.

And yes. I've been a strong advocate for making Grace passive. It's still not that comparable to Chakra, in my opinion, but it comes the closest.

Tiberria:

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Score/25H/all/14/60/default/#0000000000000000000000000000111111

Disc is 19.6% ahead of the next highest non-priest healing spec. and 32.2% ahead of the lowest healing spec. If you look at only top 100 parses (which is probably skewed at least to an extent), Disc is 22.7% ahead of the next highest healing spec. What I am suggesting is the superior nature of absorbs compared to heals and superior raid utility means that Disc probably needs to be somewhere around the 4th to 6th highest for raw throughput, which would entail a 25-30% overall nerf.


Why are you jumping to the next highest non-priest spec instead of the next highest?
Why are you looking at spec score instead of dps?

Absorbs are our main raid utility. What you're arguing for is that we should be near the bottom at all times because absorbs are superior. The problem with your argument is that absorbs are only superior in situations where healing needs aren't actually that great.

Look at Garalon, which I find the best fight for throughput comparison given the consistent and relatively heavy damage. There's a 7% difference between our healing and the next highest (which is probably skewed because they're monks), and 15.5% ahead of the next beyond (Paladins). That's from the top scores. If you look at overall, there's a 3.5% difference between Disc and the second (Holy Priests), and a 14.2% between Disc and Shaman (third on that list).

You're not actually thinking about the why. You're just vomiting up numbers and making uneducated accusations.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/05/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Qùess
I'm only pointing out parses because that's what Tiberria did. He's going off raidbots to say Disc needs nerfs, the same can easily be said for any class comparable to Disc if that's his way of assessing how buffs and nerfs need to be handled.


Disc doesn't need nerfs. The spec needs completely overhauled by someone who doesn't have their head in the sand.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
01/05/2013 12:49 PMPosted by Skootalloo
If not for the fact that atonement is capped at 30% of the priest's health...

Wait, what? I've never heard of that. I know Divine Aegis is capped at 30% of our health, but I'm pretty sure Atonement has no such cap.


It is capped. Otherwise on on Wind Lord & Amber Shaper you would be seeing Atonement hitting for 180 - 200k. The highest I have seen is in the low 130kish.
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90 Troll Priest
12105
01/05/2013 01:48 PMPosted by Rasul

Wait, what? I've never heard of that. I know Divine Aegis is capped at 30% of our health, but I'm pretty sure Atonement has no such cap.


It is capped. Otherwise on on Wind Lord & Amber Shaper you would be seeing Atonement hitting for 180 - 200k. The highest I have seen is in the low 130kish.


Always wondered if that is working as intended, or some odd bug side-effect of the "if priest is healed, effect is reduced by 50%" restriction of atonement.
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90 Human Paladin
15450
My guess is that it is intended. Otherwise, you would be looking at some extreme numbers from Atonement. Fights like Wind Lord and Amber Shaper where you have 600 - 800% damage modifier would be out of control.
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
01/05/2013 12:43 PMPosted by Euphoric
I'd rather be the under appreciated healing class that buffs hp, mana, passive raid healing, raid dps increases, all meanwhile staying competitive on the meters.


Unless "under appreciated" turns into "benched". You can't expect a meter to account for the fact that all the other healers are doing some of their heals with mana supplied by the shaman, but you might expect some raid leaders to be smarter than a computer. Other times you might be disappointed in that expectation though... but I don't think Blizzard would rebalance a spec that is actually functioning and contributing to the success of the raid just because some players are too dumb to appreciate it.

ISTM that if h priests are balanced under the assumption that they'll be in the correct chakra all the time, then they should actually be able to do so (i.e. reduce/eliminate the cd on changing, although that would lead to a lot of macroing and ultimately boring gameplay like where hunters used to be with aspect swapping). OTOH GC's tweet seems to imply that h priests are balanced around casting some of their heals with chakra buff and others without it.

I think GC thinks it's hard to balance holy while disc is so OP few people are playing holy, which is hard to argue with, but maybe if disc is nerfed on the PTR, people will try some holy on the PTR and that will help Blizzard get a better idea of where holy really is compared to other healing classes.
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90 Goblin Priest
12840
ISTM that if h priests are balanced under the assumption that they'll be in the correct chakra all the time, then they should actually be able to do so (i.e. reduce/eliminate the cd on changing, although that would lead to a lot of macroing and ultimately boring gameplay like where hunters used to be with aspect swapping). OTOH GC's tweet seems to imply that h priests are balanced around casting some of their heals with chakra buff and others without it.


I've always thought that the chakras should be on seperate cooldowns.

The biggest reason that I don't change to (for example) chakra: sanctuary is the fear that 10 seconds from now I'll need to do some big single target healing and I won't be able to for another 20 secs (by which time either someone's dead or I'm OOM). If the cooldowns were seperated, I'd be able to pop into AoE stance for raid-wide damage, then straight back to serenity. At the moment, I'm mostly (there are some exceptions obviously) picking a chakra before the pull and staying in it for the duration of the encounter. I don't think that is compelling gameplay.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12860
I don't understand the problem with Chakra.

Not the pet peeves, not the dislikes, but the mechanical problem.

Riôt
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12960
[quote="75913362086"]In it's current form, it is a penalty. No other healer must swap and maintain stances at all times to pull their weight and remain competitive with other healers nor is any other healer forced to make a trade-off in terms of power. Asking Holy to forget that they're suddenly healing at 75% power (at best) in one of two areas whenever they make a stance choice is absurd.[quote]

If a Discipline Priest isn't using Archangel or Spirit Shell, they're at 75% power as well - and Discipline Priests are forced to be in that state 50%+ of the time.

There really isn't any difference between whining about Chakra and whining that Spirit Shell only lasts 15 sec each minute.

Let's put this in perspective. Look at these two lists:

Discipline: Prayer of Healing, Power Word: Shield, Penance, Smite, Holy Fire
Holy: Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Heal, Renew, Prayer of Mending, Circle of Healing, Divine Hymn, Lightwell, Binding Heal, Divine Star/Halo/Cascase, Desperate Prayer

Those are the heals better in each spec even outside of Chakra. Throw Chakra into the mix and you get additional heals while some of those spells get a lot better.
Edited by Medeyn on 1/6/2013 7:36 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
I don't understand the problem with Chakra.

Not the pet peeves, not the dislikes, but the mechanical problem.

Riôt


How can you not understand it? Explain, please.

If a Discipline Priest isn't using Archangel or Spirit Shell, they're at 75% power as well - and Discipline Priests are forced to be in that state 50%+ of the time.

There really isn't any difference between whining about Chakra and whining that Spirit Shell only lasts 15 sec each minute.


There are fundamental differences. Chakra is designed to be present at all times, and requires that you be in the correct stance to be on an even playing field with other healers. We need it to play at 100% in either raid or tank healing—both not both at once. Holy cannot afford to be in the wrong Chakra or play without Chakra at all.

Discipline plays at 100% naturally; cooldowns like PI, Archangel and Spirit Shell boost both its raid and tank healing above 100%. Archangel has been touted as non-mandatory for two expansions now, and Spirit Shell is being nerfed to more appropriately act like a short-term buff.

Every healer should be using throughput increasing cooldowns. If you really want to argue that it puts them at 100%, go ahead. All that means is that it lowers the number I give when Chakra isn't in the mix, because I am and have been speaking only to Holy's abilities to compete before cooldowns are even considered.
Edited by Elethia on 1/6/2013 7:44 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
01/05/2013 12:51 PMPosted by Qùess
I'm only pointing out parses because that's what Tiberria did. He's going off raidbots to say Disc needs nerfs, the same can easily be said for any class comparable to Disc if that's his way of assessing how buffs and nerfs need to be handled.


Isn't the problem that there *is* no class comparable to Disc right now? Even on fights that favor their class (like Monks on Garalon) Disc is still beating them, and for fights that don't favor them it's usually much more of a gulf. I'm not advocating for any particular buff/nerf here, but situations like that have pretty much always been followed by a (usually big) nerf to the class in question. Druids in FL, Pallies in DS, and Monks at MoP launch are the most recent I can think of.

I do hope that Blizzard doesn't overnerf Disc though, especially considering they are just riding high after a crappy beta and lackluster launch.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/06/2013 07:45 AMPosted by Thaimaishu
I'm only pointing out parses because that's what Tiberria did. He's going off raidbots to say Disc needs nerfs, the same can easily be said for any class comparable to Disc if that's his way of assessing how buffs and nerfs need to be handled.


Isn't the problem that there *is* no class comparable to Disc right now? Even on fights that favor their class (like Monks on Garalon) Disc is still beating them, and for fights that don't favor them it's usually much more of a gulf. I'm not advocating for any particular buff/nerf here, but situations like that have pretty much always been followed by a (usually big) nerf to the class in question. Druids in FL, Pallies in DS, and Monks at MoP launch are the most recent I can think of.

I do hope that Blizzard doesn't overnerf Disc though, especially considering they are just riding high after a crappy beta and lackluster launch.


I don't think Quess means comparable in strength. I think the argument is that Disc's numbers are deceptive. We look really good in comparison to other healers because absorbs snipe healing (to an extent, Holy Pallies can do the same thing, but they don't have any tool like Spirit Shell to exaggerate the effect).

It can also be problematic to just look at a site like Raid Bots to make a sweeping generalization about which class should be nerfed and why.
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90 Pandaren Monk
12990
01/06/2013 07:51 AMPosted by Elethia


Isn't the problem that there *is* no class comparable to Disc right now? Even on fights that favor their class (like Monks on Garalon) Disc is still beating them, and for fights that don't favor them it's usually much more of a gulf. I'm not advocating for any particular buff/nerf here, but situations like that have pretty much always been followed by a (usually big) nerf to the class in question. Druids in FL, Pallies in DS, and Monks at MoP launch are the most recent I can think of.

I do hope that Blizzard doesn't overnerf Disc though, especially considering they are just riding high after a crappy beta and lackluster launch.


I don't think Quess means comparable in strength. I think the argument is that Disc's numbers are deceptive. We look really good in comparison to other healers because absorbs snipe healing (to an extent, Holy Pallies can do the same thing, but they don't have any tool like Spirit Shell to exaggerate the effect).

It can also be problematic to just look at a site like Raid Bots to make a sweeping generalization about which class should be nerfed and why.


Oh, I understand a bit better now. Still, considering raidbots and the like are usually the best we have to work with, I do see why people tend to rely on them. Also, even if Disc's raw numbers are good, it's how their kit interacts with the raid fights that has been catching my eye. I really don't think Spirit Shell should be a (really) good answer to everything in the tier when it's on such a short CD. Some folks can argue about lining up the CD to work really well, but that type of argument didn't work for Monk regarding TF Tea and Uplift leading to mega HPS.

On the other hand, Disc being so thoroughly tied to Spirit Shell makes it dangerous to hastily overnerf, lest nothing is left when the smoke clears a la one trick pony syndrome (I'm not really sure if that would be the case, but still).
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90 Night Elf Druid
4060
01/04/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Masseý
BUT BUT BUT MY CLASS ISNT DAT STRONG PLZ BUFF IT TO WERE I CAN BEET OTHR HEALRZ CUZ I SUK


^

Learn to pre-cast, and if there is no healing to be done, cancel the cast by moving. Lessens your overhealing, increases your hps.
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On the other hand, Disc being so thoroughly tied to Spirit Shell makes it dangerous to hastily overnerf, lest nothing is left when the smoke clears a la one trick pony syndrome (I'm not really sure if that would be the case, but still).


Disc isn't tied to spirit shell because without it, we'd still be better than holy priests.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
01/06/2013 08:21 AMPosted by Venomheart
Disc isn't tied to spirit shell because without it, we'd still be better than holy priests.


Totally. That's why Disc was the spec every Priest rolled in 5.0, cause it was so good and absorbs are *always* the best. Loljk every Priest was Holy for 5.0 until Disc was massively hotfixed multiple times.

There's a very fine line between Disc's absorbs and Holy's raw throughput that puts one in higher favor. Disc is not always the right choice which was plain to see at the start of the expansion.
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Disc isn't tied to spirit shell because without it, we'd still be better than holy priests.


Totally. That's why Disc was the spec every Priest rolled in 5.0, cause it was so good and absorbs are *always* the best. Loljk every Priest was Holy for 5.0 until Disc was massively hotfixed multiple times.

There's a very fine line between Disc's absorbs and Holy's raw throughput that puts one in higher favor. Disc is not always the right choice which was plain to see at the start of the expansion.


I'm pretty sure at the start of the expansion every competent priest went and rerolled monk.

(or so I've heard).

besides aegis got buffed from 30 to 50% that matters way more than spirit shell.
Edited by Venomheart on 1/6/2013 10:02 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
I'm pretty sure at the start of the expansion every competent priest went and rerolled monk.

(or so I've heard).


Nah, just a bunch of Affinichi wannabes.

01/06/2013 10:00 AMPosted by Venomheart
besides aegis got buffed from 30 to 50% that matters way more than spirit shell.


I don't think you can really believe that if SS was removed Disc would still be the indisputable top dog that is is now. Sure, our DA would go up, but stacking DA is primitive compared to the power of well-timed SS, it could never compete. It'd be a loss no matter how you look at it.
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