Too much Focus on Disc while Holy Rots

90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/06/2013 05:25 PMPosted by Medeyn
Just like your single target heals aren't operating with the Archangel or Spirit Shell bonus in some circumstances.


This is not even the same thing. Archangel is a cool-down that buffs every single healing ability available to Discipline. SS buffs both single-target and AoE healing tools. There is no decision about whether you need to focus more on single-target or AoE healing when you activate either cool-down. You can cast any spell you want or a handful of spells, respectively, and receive the benefits of the cool-downs for both types of damage. The decision to use these abilities comes down to "I want to increase my throughput at this moment in time".

With Chakra this is not the case. You have to decide whether a situation calls for more single-target healing or more AoE healing ahead of time, pick the corresponding Chakra and bite the bullet if you have to cast abilities not buffed by that Chakra for the next 30 seconds. The decision to use a specific Chakra boils down to "how do I get !@#$ed the least in this situation?". Again, the assumption is Chakra is balanced around having to do this at times. And again, balancing under these circumstances has to be an absolute nightmare.

It's not like Holy's single target healing is terrible in Sanctuary. It's merely inefficient. And you probably don't even need the single target heals you're talking about. You've got other healers. You've also got a variety of options that heal multiple individual targets without them having to be all the same group. Your Lightwell just dumped 80k healing on them if they're actually in danger. And, of course, you've got two different "save from instant death" cool downs for single targets.


This would be alright except for the fact no other healer has to deal with this limitation. Unless you want to say a Paladin swapping beacon presents the same limitation. But that would be idiotic at best.

Chakra was a poorly conceptualized mechanic when it was introduced and remains a poorly conceptualized mechanic. If you apply a concept to building a car and the car always falls apart, no matter what you do to improve the concept, perhaps it would be a good idea to go with a different concept.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
thanks for the discussion guys! I really have learned alot from reading these. It makes me really sad that I just cannot compete with a disc in terms of throughput. With the addition of a disc priest (who completely destroys me in every fight except tsulong and garalon) and a resto shaman (who is almost always on par with me) to my raid comp, I get benched when the fight does not require 3 healers.

My raid leader once told me, "why bother bringing a holy priest, when disc simply does it better in almost all the situations"?

It hurts.


A) Your raid leader is a %%%#*!@!.

B) Have you been exploiting the ability to roll mass renews with cascade? It's quite massive and you can have 5-8 depending on whether you glyph renew.

C) Sounds like you guys are overhealing encounters if your disc is that high on the meters. (or they're soaking all of the damage on purpose by using one of the meter!@#$% playstyles that aren't optimal for most fights.

Perhaps you might enjoy dpsing as shadow? That's a very good way to guarantee yourself a raid spot if you can get it fairly well geared out.
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100 Draenei Shaman
15735
GC also agrees it's too good and is nerfing it.

A cd on POH while SS is active could work
Lower the shield limit
The shield no longer stacking up but with mastery working again

Plenty of options, no need for the bubble bot, I played priest in wrath, I know how it was.

Why is everyone so aggressive? just trying to have a reasonable discussion.


You don't even have a level 90 Priest.

You haven't raided the content.

But you feel you are qualified to talk about nerfing our main raid CD this tier.

Sorry, but no. Please go away.


You must have missed where the devs take suggestions/advice from people that don't play the spec/class/done the content if they're sound and have evidence to back it up.

Your reasoning for why he needs to go away is bad.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
You must have missed where the devs take suggestions/advice from people that don't play the spec/class/done the content if they're sound and have evidence to back it up.

Your reasoning for why he needs to go away is bad.


He was speaking with authority about a spec he's never played at max, and an ability he's never used. Yes, he needs to go away, because he doesn't understand what he's saying.

They should drastically nerf Healing Tide Totem and Healing Rain because they do way too much healing for the amount of mana spent, and are ridiculous in conjunction with Shaman Mastery.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
This would be alright except for the fact no other healer has to deal with this limitation


You act like having unique mechanics is something we should frown upon.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 12:24 AMPosted by Leviathan
This would be alright except for the fact no other healer has to deal with this limitation


You act like having unique mechanics is something we should frown upon.


I don't think she's saying that. Unique mechanics that are neutral or beneficial are fine. But a "unique mechanic" that is punitive is not okay. It's not fun or innovative. It's just a chain with a rock attached to it.
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100 Draenei Shaman
15735
You must have missed where the devs take suggestions/advice from people that don't play the spec/class/done the content if they're sound and have evidence to back it up.

Your reasoning for why he needs to go away is bad.


He was speaking with authority about a spec he's never played at max, and an ability he's never used. Yes, he needs to go away, because he doesn't understand what he's saying.

They should drastically nerf Healing Tide Totem and Healing Rain because they do way too much healing for the amount of mana spent, and are ridiculous in conjunction with Shaman Mastery.


I quit healing raids after getting kvetched at to heal stupid in ICC. At least on my shaman. I'm still trying to figure out why on the earth every raid finder run I do(Haven't done progression raids since then either tbh) has like 4 of the healers be shaman.

And why the priests seem to misplace their mass dispel on the trash up to Elegon.

(have two priests mind you. >.> And I hate Disc. Always have. Partly why I'm reading this. Higher one's 86 atm)

I don't like the idea of Chakra getting turned into a CD either. Mostly because I *hate* CDs. I feel bad if I use them and I feel bad if I don't use them. If I dont use them I feel like they're wasted and if I *do* use them I feel like I should have saved them for something else.

I don't even like DPS CDs to be honest... :/
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
01/07/2013 12:54 AMPosted by Tiriél
I don't think she's saying that. Unique mechanics that are neutral or beneficial are fine. But a "unique mechanic" that is punitive is not okay. It's not fun or innovative. It's just a chain with a rock attached to it.


It's an arbitrary distinction though because you can make the argument for basically any healer mechanic in the game that isn't raw throughput. I disagree with the idea that punitive mechanics can't be fun in the long term though. Chakra itself as issues, but stripping away punitive mechanics is what got us Wrath healing.

The problem here isn't a mechanical one. The constant complaint here ends up boiling down to a numbers issue. Chakra feels punitive because the balance of numbers is slightly off. Ideally you want a priest who Chakras wrong to feel punished, but not useless and for the Chakra to feel meaningful while it's up ( say an 85-110 type balance when compared to a stanceless healer.. random numbers there, don't put any stock in them outside a concept)... which is mostly an issue of tweaking base and chakra values and looking at fiddling with a few external effects, rather than redesigning anything.

Outside of that the other complaints seem to be from people who just don't like the idea of stances on a healer, in which case you should probably just not be playing the only healing class in the game with stances.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
01/07/2013 12:24 AMPosted by Leviathan
You act like having unique mechanics is something we should frown upon.


No, not at all. I'd argue unique mechanics are required to distinguish each healing spec from the others. I just don't think unique mechanics which are poorly designed and everyone hates should be kept around. Chakra was supposed to be a unique mechanic for Holy Priests. It was supposed to be their "thing". It failed to deliver. Most Priests find it an annoying mechanic they have to deal with instead of something they look forward to using.

I'd agree using an ability for the wrong situation should feel punitive. The problem is when you use the right ability and still come out feeling like you got screwed. This just feels like bad design to me.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 01:35 AMPosted by Sakiri
I quit healing raids after getting kvetched at to heal stupid in ICC. At least on my shaman. I'm still trying to figure out why on the earth every raid finder run I do(Haven't done progression raids since then either tbh) has like 4 of the healers be shaman.


Probably because Shaman are very strong in raids right now. They bring a high amount of utility, great healing, and they directly or indirectly buff other classes.

And why the priests seem to misplace their mass dispel on the trash up to Elegon.


Probably because it costs 49k mana (I probably have the amount wrong, but it's somewhere between 30-50k mana) and is on a 15 second CD. Alternatively, they may be using it, but remember that it only dispels up to 10 targets, so it's going to miss part of the raid.

(have two priests mind you. >.> And I hate Disc. Always have. Partly why I'm reading this. Higher one's 86 atm)

I don't like the idea of Chakra getting turned into a CD either. Mostly because I *hate* CDs. I feel bad if I use them and I feel bad if I don't use them. If I dont use them I feel like they're wasted and if I *do* use them I feel like I should have saved them for something else.

I don't even like DPS CDs to be honest... :/


It already is a CD. If you have to switch quickly from AOE to Single Target healing, you have to make a decision as to whether you will swap to the correct Chakra (and take the chance that you will be utterly gimped if you have to go back to AOE healing in the next 30 seconds) or sit in Sanctuary Chakra and be utterly gimped on your single target healing out of fear that you may need to AOE heal. What Elethia and others have suggested is to bake it into the spec (since Holy is ALREADY being balanced around being in the correct Chakra at all times) and make Chakra (if we absolutely MUST have the damn thing) into a short-duration CD or some such that can be used or not used, but isn't something that the spec is entirely balanced around being in 100% of the time.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 02:05 AMPosted by Leviathan
I don't think she's saying that. Unique mechanics that are neutral or beneficial are fine. But a "unique mechanic" that is punitive is not okay. It's not fun or innovative. It's just a chain with a rock attached to it.


It's an arbitrary distinction though because you can make the argument for basically any healer mechanic in the game that isn't raw throughput. I disagree with the idea that punitive mechanics can't be fun in the long term though. Chakra itself as issues, but stripping away punitive mechanics is what got us Wrath healing.

The problem here isn't a mechanical one. The constant complaint here ends up boiling down to a numbers issue. Chakra feels punitive because the balance of numbers is slightly off. Ideally you want a priest who Chakras wrong to feel punished, but not useless and for the Chakra to feel meaningful while it's up ( say an 85-110 type balance when compared to a stanceless healer.. random numbers there, don't put any stock in them outside a concept)... which is mostly an issue of tweaking base and chakra values and looking at fiddling with a few external effects, rather than redesigning anything.

Outside of that the other complaints seem to be from people who just don't like the idea of stances on a healer, in which case you should probably just not be playing the only healing class in the game with stances.


"If you don't like Chakra, you should reroll."

Um, sure. Yes, I'm sure that will solve all of our problems, Leviathan. I mean, every time you don't like a mechanic, you should just reroll. Trying to fix a mechanic you don't like, and feel leaves you screwed in every situation, is just stupid and selfish and you're a whiner.

Okay then!
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
"If you don't like Chakra, you should reroll."

Um, sure. Yes, I'm sure that will solve all of our problems, Leviathan. I mean, every time you don't like a mechanic, you should just reroll. Trying to fix a mechanic you don't like, and feel leaves you screwed in every situation, is just stupid and selfish and you're a whiner.

Okay then!


Didn't you know? Blizz now gives out fully geared level 90 characters with only 10 minutes of play. Rerolling is so easy! :B
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 11:27 AMPosted by Keirisonis
Didn't you know? Blizz now gives out fully geared level 90 characters with only 10 minutes of play. Rerolling is so easy! :B


The real terror is the rep grinding. :(
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/07/2013 11:15 AMPosted by Tiriél
What Elethia and others have suggested is to bake it into the spec (since Holy is ALREADY being balanced around being in the correct Chakra at all times) and make Chakra (if we absolutely MUST have the damn thing) into a short-duration CD or some such that can be used or not used, but isn't something that the spec is entirely balanced around being in 100% of the time.


How would you balance it out though? Assuming that it is baked into the spec and the values are not reduced, you would have Holy Priests with Renews as strong as a Druid's, single target heals stronger than what most classes have whilst still having an exceedingly strong PoH/CoH. This would only serve to boost the output of a class with one of the highest right now.

The alternative would be to lower both bonuses, but that would effectively serve to gimp Holy Priests in the 25 man bracket, seeing as we're practically always in the same Chakra anyway. Given that fact, I personally have no issues with the mechanical limitations of Chakra, and the only thing I'd like to see modified are our corresponding Holy Words as they're pretty useless right now.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
How would you balance it out though? Assuming that it is baked into the spec and the values are not reduced, you would have Holy Priests with Renews as strong as a Druid's, single target heals stronger than what most classes have whilst still having an exceedingly strong PoH/CoH. This would only serve to boost the output of a class with one of the highest right now.

The alternative would be to lower both bonuses, but that would effectively serve to gimp Holy Priests in the 25 man bracket, seeing as we're practically always in the same Chakra anyway. Given that fact, I personally have no issues with the mechanical limitations of Chakra, and the only thing I'd like to see modified are our corresponding Holy Words as they're pretty useless right now.


Past the recent 25% buffs each stance got, my understanding of Chakra has always been that you need to be in the correct Chakra to break even with other healers. In that case, I don't see why it would be unbalanced to give them the ability 100% of the time. You're balanced around being in the correct Chakra 100% of the time, and your healing is only up to par when you are.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Past the recent 25% buffs each stance got, my understanding of Chakra has always been that you need to be in the correct Chakra to break even with other healers. In that case, I don't see why it would be unbalanced to give them the ability 100% of the time. You're balanced around being in the correct Chakra 100% of the time, and your healing is only up to par when you are.


We are balanced around being in one Chakra. I think giving us +25% healing to our single target heals and especially Renew might make us too strong, seeing as we would have one of the strongest spot and raid heals.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/7/2013 11:46 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 11:45 AMPosted by Ceddya
Past the recent 25% buffs each stance got, my understanding of Chakra has always been that you need to be in the correct Chakra to break even with other healers. In that case, I don't see why it would be unbalanced to give them the ability 100% of the time. You're balanced around being in the correct Chakra 100% of the time, and your healing is only up to par when you are.


We are balanced by being in one Chakra. I think giving us +25% healing to our single target heals and especially Renew might make us too strong, seeing as we would have one of the strongest spot and raid heals.


So ditch the recent buffs and put them on a CD, and give baseline Chakra to Holy 100% of the time.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
01/07/2013 11:46 AMPosted by Tiriél
So ditch the recent buffs and put them on a CD, and give baseline Chakra to Holy 100% of the time.


Yes, but that would only serve to gimp Holy Priests in 25 mans as we're almost always assigned to raid healing. Ditching the recent buffs and making Chakras baseline may see our overall throughput remain constant, but it would reduce our peak output substantially.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/7/2013 11:50 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
01/07/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Ceddya
So ditch the recent buffs and put them on a CD, and give baseline Chakra to Holy 100% of the time.


Yes, but that would only serve to gimp Holy Priests in 25 mans as we're almost always assigned to raid healing. Ditching the recent buffs and making Chakras baseline may see our overall throughput remain constant, but it would reduce our peak output substantially.


I don't see how. You apparently forgot the part where I said put the 25% buff as a CD. :)
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100 Night Elf Druid
5960
01/07/2013 11:49 AMPosted by Ceddya
Yes, but that would only serve to gimp Holy Priests in 25 mans as we're almost always assigned to raid healing.


Don't you think that has something to do with the current state of the Chakra system? I.e. you're assigned that way because it allows you to sit in Sanctuary and not be hurt by the cooldown while someone else takes care of the single target heals?

ISTM that 30 seconds is a heck of a long time in WoW and with the way healer gameplay is based around reacting to the way the stuff is hitting the fan, a stance-restricted healer is just not that viable. Turn one of the healing chakras into a cooldown, assume that the other one will be up 100% of the time in all group play, and rebalance the numbers accordingly.

One possible alternative that just occurred to me: give each chakra its own *non-shared* cooldown, so you could usually change back as soon as you wanted to, if you hadn't already changed chakra recently. The length of the cooldown might also need to be addressed.

But that's just a step in the direction of eliminating the CD, which leads to macroing chakra changes into every spell... ultimately it's the same problem hunters used to have with aspects of the hawk and fox. Being in the right mode has no reward (it's only at par with other specs of the same role), being in the wrong mode has a penalty, so it's just a tax to have to keep changing or an even worse penalty if you can't.

That's what's wrong with stances in WoW and why most other classes/specs no longer have a burden of having to juggle multiple stances in combat. (Imagine Druids with 2 different healing forms that you had to change back and forth between, or Shaman with 2 different totems that you had to drop before using separate halves of your healing toolkit... you get the idea.)
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