Too much Focus on Disc while Holy Rots

94 Goblin Warlock
9210

Um, sure. Yes, I'm sure that will solve all of our problems, Leviathan. I mean, every time you don't like a mechanic, you should just reroll. Trying to fix a mechanic you don't like, and feel leaves you screwed in every situation, is just stupid and selfish and you're a whiner.

Okay then!


It's not a matter of trying to fix mechanics you don't like. You just have to realize that if you don't like the concept of a healer with stances, you shouldn't be playing the only healer in the game who uses stances. I never said anything about not trying to get those adjusted into something more elegant and enjoyabl (I actually brought that up specifically, you just decided to pass on that part of things instead in favor of taking potshots)

It'd be like me posting on a resto druid and complaining about how they have too many HoTs and not enough absorbs. Or the reverse on a disc priest.
Edited by Leviathan on 1/7/2013 1:38 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
It's not a matter of trying to fix mechanics you don't like. You just have to realize that if you don't like the concept of a healer with stances, you shouldn't be playing the only healer in the game who uses stances. I never said anything about not trying to get those adjusted into something more elegant and enjoyabl (I actually brought that up specifically, you just decided to pass on that part of things instead in favor of taking potshots)

It'd be like me posting on a resto druid and complaining about how they have too many HoTs and not enough absorbs. Or the reverse on a disc priest.


The issue is that blizzard implemented the stances with no real thought about it. Holy was considered great before it had the stances. People love holy because it's holy, that doesn't mean that they like to use chakras.

Imagine if blizzard had tied 90% of a shaman's rotation to having the right totem out to buff their healing. Like one totem buffs each spell and they all have a 1 minute cooldown that they share. Now imagine if your healing with every spell that wasn't buffed by that totem that matches it is 25% weaker than not only all of your other spells, but those of EVERY other healer. Even the ones that aren't tailored towards doing those same things.

That is the problem with holy priests. They used to have mechanics that weren't as punitive. Most people don't like to be punished for playing their favorite class because of "flavor"
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12960
01/07/2013 01:47 PMPosted by Keirisonis
The issue is that blizzard implemented the stances with no real thought about it. Holy was considered great before it had the stances. People love holy because it's holy, that doesn't mean that they like to use chakras.


I don't personally like Chakra, but it's because Holy Priests were classically an 'on demand reactive healer'. You may not have been able to run at full burn all the time, but when you needed to do so you had the tools. You didn't spend all your time monitoring cooldowns, etc. Chakra runs contrary to that conception of a Holy Priest.

However, that doesn't make it an inherently broken mechanic. Nor does it make it 'punitive' any more than a half-full glass is instead a glass lacking half the water it should have.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9515
"If you don't like Chakra, you should reroll."

Um, sure. Yes, I'm sure that will solve all of our problems, Leviathan. I mean, every time you don't like a mechanic, you should just reroll. Trying to fix a mechanic you don't like, and feel leaves you screwed in every situation, is just stupid and selfish and you're a whiner.

Okay then!


Didn't you know? Blizz now gives out fully geared level 90 characters with only 10 minutes of play. Rerolling is so easy! :B

Rerolling is easy...and there's always another class you like as much as you used to like your own!

/sigh...I miss my priest.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
Now imagine if your healing with every spell that wasn't buffed by that totem that matches it is 25% weaker than not only all of your other spells, but those of EVERY other healer. Even the ones that aren't tailored towards doing those same things.


Which is the inherent problem with Chakra IMO(well one of two major ones I see). Not the core mechanic itself, merely the way you rely on Chakra to be decent rather than to be really good.

Ideally you'd want your off-Chakra spells to be bad enough to make you feel bad for being in the wrong Chakra, but still largely workable.. and for your Chakra'd spells to be a bit better than the competition. Instead the tuning right now just makes Chakra feel like a hurdle one needs to cross just in order to play normally. It's admittedly a hard perception to change and balance, but I don't think it's unworkable.

Other big problem is raid scaling issues, but that's an entirely different topic.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
*grabs Leviathan and shakes him like the goblin he is*

That is the problem! That's what we've been saying! But a lot of people would just really like Chakra to go away. Right now, it's so bad to be in the wrong Chakra when you NEED it, that a lot of people are scared to EVER swap into another Chakra.
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100 Human Priest
18140
*scurries back over from the land of math and honey*

Most of the regulars have been posting likes/dislikes/and indifference over the way we feel about the concept of chakra. We've unanimously agreed that being in the wrong state feels like a punishment, and being in the right state isn't empowering at all.

I've read some suggesting that the 25% modifier can go to hell and the chakra simply changes the chastise spell. I've personally been a fan of lowering the percent as well as the cd.

It wouldn't be out of line to request that the original chakra concept can be saved by increasing the healing percent of aoe heals in sanctuary and putting an actual penalty percent on single target heals. For serenity stance, increase the single target heals and put a penalty on all aoe. Then, for chastise chakra (red chakra), the one that's a complete mess for now and forever, make all of our heals evenly balanced. This would 'feel' like an empowerment to whatever we want to do because we would gain a substantial boost and the additional spell (ground santuary or hw: serenity) from chastise.

That idea might be a bit too much to lobby for, but lowering the cd seems achievable.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I really don't understand how the penalty percentage is that much of a handicap. A single target heal while in Chakra: Sanctuary is 25% less effective. That isn't so huge as to preclude you from using single target heals when Chakra is on CD or you don't want to risk switching. I think you're exaggerating the penalty. It would be like me arguing I can't afford to ever cast an expensive single target GHW or Healing Surge without first moving Earth Shield to that target because I would lose 20% effectiveness. I cast off ES single target heals all the time, because if someone needs a dedicated single target heal (outside of tanks that you can pre-plan), you generally need that heal within the next 2 seconds, and can not afford to use a GCD on ES followed by casting the actual spell itself. On top of that, you would spend 22,000 mana moving the ES and then moving it back, which is pretty prohibitive.

Yes, Chakra is punitive and limiting, but realistically, the 30 second CD is balanced by the 0 mana cost and the fact that it's off the GCD. It's just as punitive and limiting that I can't get the full strength of my single target spells without Earth Shield on the target. I honestly would not be upset if they just took Earth Shield and gave it a 30 second cooldown, but removed the mana and GCD cost. Maybe they should just put Chakra on the GCD, remove the CD and make it cost 12,000 mana to switch Chakras. Would that be preferable to a 30 second CD?
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
01/07/2013 12:24 AMPosted by Leviathan
This would be alright except for the fact no other healer has to deal with this limitation


You act like having unique mechanics is something we should frown upon.


Having a completely unique disadvantage that is not matched/outweighed by a benefit (unique or not) should be frowned upon, yes.

01/07/2013 09:16 PMPosted by Tiberria
Yes, Chakra is punitive and limiting, but realistically, the 30 second CD is balanced by the 0 mana cost and the fact that it's off the GCD.


No, it really is not balanced. You're either really just not getting it, or you're blatantly ignoring the fact that we have many times said that operating at 75% (in fact, you're operating at a lower percentage because the 25% doesn't take the utility given by each into account) is not okay. No other healer has to choose between tank healing at 100% or raid healing at 100%. They can do both at 100%. Holy Priests cannot.
Edited by Elethia on 1/7/2013 9:34 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
I really don't understand how the penalty percentage is that much of a handicap. A single target heal while in Chakra: Sanctuary is 25% less effective. That isn't so huge as to preclude you from using single target heals when Chakra is on CD or you don't want to risk switching. I think you're exaggerating the penalty. It would be like me arguing I can't afford to ever cast an expensive single target GHW or Healing Surge without first moving Earth Shield to that target because I would lose 20% effectiveness. I cast off ES single target heals all the time, because if someone needs a dedicated single target heal (outside of tanks that you can pre-plan), you generally need that heal within the next 2 seconds, and can not afford to use a GCD on ES followed by casting the actual spell itself. On top of that, you would spend 22,000 mana moving the ES and then moving it back, which is pretty prohibitive.

Yes, Chakra is punitive and limiting, but realistically, the 30 second CD is balanced by the 0 mana cost and the fact that it's off the GCD. It's just as punitive and limiting that I can't get the full strength of my single target spells without Earth Shield on the target. I honestly would not be upset if they just took Earth Shield and gave it a 30 second cooldown, but removed the mana and GCD cost. Maybe they should just put Chakra on the GCD, remove the CD and make it cost 12,000 mana to switch Chakras. Would that be preferable to a 30 second CD?


Yes but your ability to heal is not balanced around having earth shield on every single one of your targetted healers. You're comparing apples and handgrenades. Holy priests are balanced completely around being able to do only 1 type of healing in each chakra. Unfortunately, that amount of healing is only ON PAR with other healers if they're in the right chakra at all times for every single heal they put out.

It leads to a feeling of being underpowered if an emergency calls for you to switch chakra because you simply can't, for fear of having chakra on cooldown when the fight's mechanics call for you to change. Your greater healing wave still hits fairly hard when you need it, our greater heal does not if we're in our aoe healing chakra. Your healing rain still ticks fairly hard when you need it, regardless of having earth shield on one of its targets, or even having any sort of buff up, as does your chain heal. It's not comparable.
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100 Human Priest
8580
One thing I'd point out - several folks have mentioned moving Chakra from it's current 75-100 implementation, where your non-Chakra spells are 75% of another healer's effectiveness and your Chakra spells are 100%, to an 85-110 implementation. In other words, a small penalty when in the wrong Chakra, but when you are in the correct one, you are more effective than another healer.

That will not work. If you have a situation where a healer can be 110% as effective as another class in a certain role (raid healing in this instance), well, you end up with raids who stack those healers and sit others. It doesn't matter that they might not be that good in their non-chakra state; high end raiding is about min-maxing, and if that means a raid can bring three Holy priests and tell them to stay in Sanctuary the entire fight, well, they will.

I personally dislike Chakra and have since I first played it. A 30 second CD seems pretty limiting, particularly in smaller content like 5 or 10 mans where you could be all or half the healing. One option I'd propose would be to remove the cooldown and add a small mana cost - I'm talking less than 5% max mana here. Removing the cooldown gives priests a lot more versatility to swap back and forth; the small mana cost means there are still decisions to be made instead of just macroing Chakra stances onto every heal. The other idea I had has already been proposed in this thread - specifically, bump up Holy's base healing and make the three Chakras into three short term buffs that share a CD of two minutes or so.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
01/07/2013 11:04 PMPosted by Menae
That will not work. If you have a situation where a healer can be 110% as effective as another class in a certain role (raid healing in this instance), well, you end up with raids who stack those healers and sit others. It doesn't matter that they might not be that good in their non-chakra state; high end raiding is about min-maxing, and if that means a raid can bring three Holy priests and tell them to stay in Sanctuary the entire fight, well, they will.


Except you're neglecting the '85' part of it. And the fact that healers have been balanced around the idea of being better at some things and worse at others since forever. The only difference is that Holy would get to choose their niche by changing stances (and flexibility has always been Holy's thing). 85-110 might not be the right numbers with the current implementation of Chakra, but I think you're missing the mark with your point.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
I really don't understand how the penalty percentage is that much of a handicap. A single target heal while in Chakra: Sanctuary is 25% less effective. That isn't so huge as to preclude you from using single target heals when Chakra is on CD or you don't want to risk switching. I think you're exaggerating the penalty. It would be like me arguing I can't afford to ever cast an expensive single target GHW or Healing Surge without first moving Earth Shield to that target because I would lose 20% effectiveness. I cast off ES single target heals all the time, because if someone needs a dedicated single target heal (outside of tanks that you can pre-plan), you generally need that heal within the next 2 seconds, and can not afford to use a GCD on ES followed by casting the actual spell itself. On top of that, you would spend 22,000 mana moving the ES and then moving it back, which is pretty prohibitive.

Yes, Chakra is punitive and limiting, but realistically, the 30 second CD is balanced by the 0 mana cost and the fact that it's off the GCD. It's just as punitive and limiting that I can't get the full strength of my single target spells without Earth Shield on the target. I honestly would not be upset if they just took Earth Shield and gave it a 30 second cooldown, but removed the mana and GCD cost. Maybe they should just put Chakra on the GCD, remove the CD and make it cost 12,000 mana to switch Chakras. Would that be preferable to a 30 second CD?


Yes but your ability to heal is not balanced around having earth shield on every single one of your targetted healers. You're comparing apples and handgrenades. Holy priests are balanced completely around being able to do only 1 type of healing in each chakra. Unfortunately, that amount of healing is only ON PAR with other healers if they're in the right chakra at all times for every single heal they put out.


I disagree. Our ability to effectively single target heal and how hard is as balanced around having Earth Shield on the target as much as Holy Priests' ability to single target heal is based on being in single target Chakra. It's 20% vs 25%; if you argue that the amount Shaman single target spells hit for is not balanced around that 20% buff, how can you argue the amount Holy Priest single target spells hit for is balanced around their 25% buff?. Shaman are basically in AoE "Chakra" 100% of the time, and can select one target at a time that gets the full strength of our single target "Chakra". You can change the target at any time for a relatively high mana cost. Holy Priests have the flexibility of being able to switch a stance and get the equivalent of Earth Shield on every target in the raid at once, with the penalty of losing some AoE healing ability, no mana cost, and a 30 second lockout.

The difference is more a class flavor thing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12960
01/07/2013 09:28 PMPosted by Elethia
No, it really is not balanced. You're either really just not getting it, or you're blatantly ignoring the fact that we have many times said that operating at 75% (in fact, you're operating at a lower percentage because the 25% doesn't take the utility given by each into account) is not okay. No other healer has to choose between tank healing at 100% or raid healing at 100%. They can do both at 100%. Holy Priests cannot.


The '75%' is being thrown around a lot. So let's check it. We'll use 24k spellpower, 16.66% haste, 20% critical, 15 points of mastery.

A Discipline Priest performs their single target healing with PW:S (88,457), Penance (102,236 + 11,715) and Greater Heal (125,059 + 19,378) in conjunction. If we PW:S, Penance, Greater Heal 4 times we'll consume 1.07 sec + 1.43 sec + 1.79 sec + 2.14 * 3 = 10.72 sec and be ready to cycle the whole thing all over again. That's 780,156 healing/shielding in 10.72 sec, or 72,776 hps.

Note: I modeled Inner Focus as adding +8.9% (1/9th of the remaining 80%) critical to Greater Heal for simplicity. Grace was included on all heals.

A Holy Priest uses Flash Heal (80,447), Greater Heal (107,263) and Renew (74,139). Rolling in a 2:1 FH:GH ratio and tossing Renew when it expires, that yields 14 Flash Heal, 7 Greater Heal, 3 Renew = 2,099,516 healing in 30.0 sec. Which is 69,984 hps. If you include the Lightwell Renews available, you can add another 15206 hps. We'll ignore those.

Now let's drop that Holy Priest into Serenity Chakra. The casting time (and upfront hit) for Renew will disappear, so we'll just get a flat +8173 hps from Renew. We'll use HW:S (63,615) on cool down and otherwise rotate FH/GH. Our effective critical rate for non-HW:S rises to 35% (60% uptime on +25%; it's a bit fuzzy), so our total healing rises to 2302581 healing in 30.0 sec for 76753 hps. Since all of our healing is affected by the Chakra, that becomes 95,941 hps. And, of course, those Lightwell Renews are still sitting out there as a possibility (they are unaffected by Chakra).

So apparently single target healing Holy vs. Disc goes from 96% to 132% (in that rough vicinity at least).
Edited by Medeyn on 1/8/2013 5:36 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
6355
01/07/2013 11:12 PMPosted by Leviathan
flexibility has always been Holy's thing


That's kind of an ironic thing to say given that this discussion is all about the INFLEXIBILITY of having to wait 30 seconds to change stances and ungimp the heal you need to cast *now*.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
I don't see how. You apparently forgot the part where I said put the 25% buff as a CD. :)


Ah, that would actually be a nice buff to Holy Priests. It certainly would increase our peak burst raid healing, but solidifying Holy's niche may actually make it more appealing when compared to Disc.
Edited by Ceddya on 1/8/2013 8:32 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
9105
As for mechanics problems, possibly, as for throughput problems, go check the holy priest doing 150k on H garalon and tell me they lack throughput...uh-huh, right. More high-level raiders play disc because it's AMAZING and ridiculously OP, that's why it doesn't look strong on raidbots, but its still very capable.
Edited by Astråios on 1/8/2013 8:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
As for mechanics problems, possibly, as for throughput problems, go check the holy priest doing 150k on H garalon and tell me they lack throughput...uh-huh, right. More high-level raiders play disc because it's AMAZING and ridiculously OP, that's why it doesn't look strong on raidbots, but its still very capable.


So you're suggesting that we buff Holy to Disc's level? :P

This is correct though. Holy's throughput is in an extremely good place right now, any changes to Chakra has to keep that in mind.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
What I feel needs to be done for Holy Priests:

1. Chakra revamped with our AoE and Single-target heals buffed accordingly. Renamed to Holy Concentration - Now Increases Mana Regen from Spirit by 30% for 20 sec - 2 min cooldown

[Note: Tweaks our mana regen a little with a nostalgic talent which is now active rather than passive.]

2. Our Holy Word Spells are now three separate spells on separate cooldowns.

a)Holy Word: Sanctuary is now a spell we can use whenever we want. Cooldown and duration are both 30 sec.

[Note: The current duration and cooldown feels awkward].

b)HW: Serenity - An instant cast, single-target burst heal that grants the target a free Renew and grants the current crit buff - 8 sec cooldown

c)HW: Chastise - Disorients the target and any additonal enemy around that target for 4 sec - 20 sec cooldown.

[Note: PvP buff]

3. Spirit of Redemption revamped and is now our "Output booster" spell. Something along the lines of:

Turns the Priest into the Spirit of Redemption. While in the Spirit of Redemption form, you cannot move and can only cast healing spells. Mana Cost for all spells is reduced by 100% and you cannot be harmed or targeted. Lasts 8 sec - 5 min cooldown.

[Note: Gives Holy Priests a fun spell akin to Divine Shield, promoting PvP viability, fun utility in raids, and an output booster cooldown for Holy.]

________________________________________________________________________

Also I really flipping miss Guardian Spirit's old glyph: If your Guardian Spirit lasts its entire duration without being triggered, the cooldown is reset to 1 min.

This glyph alone use to make Holy Priests a blast to play and I'd compromise with the reset being 2 min instead of 1 :)
Edited by Senari on 1/8/2013 9:57 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12945
Also I really flipping miss Guardian Spirit's old glyph: If your Guardian Spirit lasts its entire duration without being triggered, the cooldown is reset to 1 min.

Want.

Spirit of Redemption revamped and is now our "Output booster" spell. Something along the lines of:

Turns the Priest into the Spirit of Redemption. While in the Spirit of Redemption form, you cannot move and can only cast healing spells. Mana Cost for all spells is reduced by 100% and you cannot be harmed or targeted. Lasts 8 sec - 5 min cooldown.

Want.

2. Our Holy Word Spells are now three separate spells on separate cooldowns.

a)Holy Word: Sanctuary is now a spell we can use whenever we want. Cooldown and duration are both 30 sec.

[Note: The current duration and cooldown feels awkward].

b)HW: Serenity - An instant cast, single-target burst heal that grants the target a free Renew and grants the current crit buff - 8 sec cooldown

c)HW: Chastise - Disorients the target and any additonal enemy around that target for 4 sec - 20 sec cooldown.

Want.

1. Chakra revamped with our AoE and Single-target heals buffed accordingly. Renamed to Holy Concentration - Now Increases Mana Regen from Spirit by 30% for 20 sec - 2 min cooldown

[Note: Tweaks our mana regen a little with a nostalgic talent which is now active rather than passive.]

Do not want.
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