Edited by Lobster on 1/3/13 1:15 PM (PST)
Whatever the difference is, we likely won't see it immediately. From related tweets they sound committed to keeping gear slow and difficult to acquire for the average player. If anything, the "changes" may be related to alts.
90 Tauren Warrior
Edited by Dirtysecrets on 1/3/13 1:32 PM (PST)
I don't think I could have worded this better myself.
It is the main reason why I am currently not pvping at all, whether it be rbgs/arenas/randombgs. The gear discrepancy is just so severe when you are in the middle of a season it gets discouraging.
Now, with the upgrade system, there is literally no time to fully gear a toon before the next season so it gets to the point of me thinking....why not just wait and catch up with new season honor gear instead of being frustrated in the middle of this one?! And because of that, I will most likely let my sub lapse for a few months and even when the new season comes out...I really don't know if i would resub just for the pvp...when the pvp balance seems abysmal.
90 Tauren Warrior
Edited by Imij on 1/3/13 1:56 PM (PST)
I think more people like Nadagast should post threads to show the developers (its a miracle within a miracle if they even glance at their forums) to support the pathetic gearing system/issue.
Edit: Its better to say something instead of falling back on hopes and dreams, but at this point it seems like its all we have left to do..
Edited by Elrendil on 1/3/13 7:10 PM (PST)
I've been subscribed for over 5 years and am feeling like I'm at a pvp low. I'm a casual pvp'er and have played ret exclusively for a number of seasons. I agree with the OP and just wanted to touch on some other related areas which I think are also issues.
Basically I'm just not having fun anymore - here are some reason's why:
I can't generally get into RBG's, even PUG groups just trying to cap because I'm ret. There is still a strong overall bias for primarily ranged DPS in RBG's. Since it is much easier for some specs/classes to get rating in RBG's than arenas I feel that some classes are able to gear faster because they have an easier time getting in RBG groups. They then inherently have an advantage when doing arenas because they are better geared and the gap continues to widen as the season goes on.
It's a weekly pain to hunt for an RBG group to just try to cap, I'd rather be doing arenas than hunting for RBG groups.
So basically, if you want to be reasonably competitive in arenas you need to do RBG's.
The great advantage RBG players gain in arenas could be fixed by lowering the conquest point ratings between arenas and RBG's.
I believe it is the 'right' thing for most players to be fully geared at least 3-4 weeks before the season ends. That way the ladders reflect actual skill rather than effort put in to attain gear. With gearing how it is this season - and this seems like it will continue I don't think I'll be able to fully gear before the season ends. PVE has been increasing casual friendly while PVP is moving in the direction of being less casual friendly and I don't like the direction it is heading.
It used to be that when you played someone in arena you were generally at their same level of gear (because gear was based on arena rating). At least that way to move up you were generally playing people with only one better piece than you, and rating and gear climbed together. Now that the link is broken between rating and gear you tend to face a wide variety of geared players at all ratings. It is very hard then for an undergeared player to make meaningful progress or have a decent chance of playing with other geared players (they don't want to play with others who are undergeared).
To fix this issue and support alt leveling I like the idea of a pool based approach were you accrue conquest points every week and don't lose them if you miss a week - or have SOME way of recovering these lost conquest points so at least someone can put in extra effort late in the season to catch up somewhat.
I played around with trying Holy but I need to stick with blue gear since I've been using conquest on Ret. Anyway, not that fun because I'm so outgeared. I'd like to try both specs and be reasonably competative but it's not feasible to have good gear for both specs in a single season right now.
This could be fixed by allowing pvp gear to be resold back to vendor and refunded. So at least someone could trade in their gear and try another spec if they chose.
I'd like to be playing a lot of arenas, I don't even care generally if they are rated or not. I also like to try out different comps with a lot of different people to learn more about other classes.
The current system does not support this playstyle in a casual friendly manner. I can't just play a few random games because I'm unable to randomly queue for skirmishes. Yes wargames are possible but again, I don't want to have to find 3 other people who are interested - it's a pain and honesly I think the game should do this for me.
The current arena system does not support a casual environment where people can 'try out' new comps or get to know new people. There is a risk of losing rating so generally people want to stick with their 3's team and use 2's only for capping points. It's not too hard to randomly find a 2's parter - that's one area that does seem to work ok but I'd like to be able to try 3's more often with differnt comps without requiring team hopping.
This can be fixed by merging some of the concepts of skirmishes with wargames in some fashion. Add the ability to queue wargames with random partners, you could even have a hidden MMR for characters and try to match based on RBG algorithm. This will allow people to easily try out comps for fun without risk of rating, get to know new people and see if they want to start a serious team or not.
Edited by Probie on 1/4/13 12:47 AM (PST)
Malevolent Gives on ONE piece of gear:
+39 pvp power
This doesn't even account for gear upgrades
Even if you are grinding all your honor gear before doing arena... that is a HUGE gap in gear. And top that off with not being able to obtain a weapon with PvP power on it. That's another 5500 PvP power.
I don't understand the argument that people would be less likely to sub... I feel like it would encourage more playtime since people would actually ENJOY playing their alts and even be encouraged to play them. I have had a constant sub for this entire expac but I have a job and travel frequently, there are many weeks that I just don't have time to get games in. I'm still paying my $14.99 a month, I feel like I'm getting gypped.
You still have to win matches to get points and people who are above 1500 will still earn more point every week and therefor still be ahead on gear. With the ability to upgrade earning more than the standard cap will still give you an advantage later on in the season when you are able to upgrade all of your gear with the extra points you have earned.
I have been playing this game since shortly after release and am so disappointed with where PvP is. I don't understand how the same problems come up time and time again and there never seems to be an effort to fix it. PvP cannot get worse that it is right now, why not just try something new for a season and see what happens.
On somewhat of a side note... remember why this thing got nerfed: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/28442
Good thing they fixed the stun problem.
Edited by Fredhx on 1/4/13 2:29 AM (PST)
love your suggestions, very well worded and points out the flaws of current system. And the solution to the flaws of current system is just perfect.
Personally i felt conquest gear upgrade should be removed totally, don't get me wrong, upgrade system is good, but its just not suitable for conquest gears.
Honor , justice and valor upgrades are really good and helps all players in a positive way, especially honor gear upgrades helping players to close the ilvl gap between honor and conquest gears.
conquest upgrades is pretty much hurting everyone, those who started late are pretty much gutted with no chance of achieving even grounds since the gear gap cannot be closed since it is moving all the time usually not in your favour, but in favour to those who started playing early.
This is bad because the focus of arenas should be ratings, not gear.
Hell, those who started early might not even want to gear advantage because there is no fun in totally outgearing your opponents instead of outplaying them, but to remain competitive they are forced to fully upgrade their conquest gears.
This brings up another glaring flaw, that is alt spec gearing. Conquest upgrades indirectly forces u into playing the spec u initially started with and stick with it from the beginning of the season until the end which is sad, it was never like this in the past seasons.
Hopefully blizz will realize this mistake soon enough and take corrective actions and move the PvP aspect of this game towards the correct direction ie. like what they did to PvE gears in arena with the implementation of PvP Power which is very successful ( but also created this gearing problem at the same time), peace out.
Great post, great thread. I'm just returning to WoW after quite some time and I'm genuinely concerned with the PvP experience at 90. I'm really looking forward to PvPing but from what I've read and heard from friends I'm bracing for the worst when I finally get there. I hope these current issues don't ruin it for me.
Hopefully Blizzard reads these posts. They seem like excellent and logical solutions to real problems this game's PvP currently has.
Agree, fresh 90, spent all of my honor on gear and now I am farming more honor to have for next season because I do not think that I will be able to get my weapons until next season or last week of this season.
Great post! I love to arena! So as I started the expac late due to RL and beginning to learn all new things you learn with in fresh expacs I've also learned the expac is punishing to late comers/new players/ and alts in terms for pvp, its just not fun queing BGs. The grind just to get honor gear is so horrid (painfully being 1-2 shotted by everything) I'm not even wanting to que arena which is the only aspect of the game I mostly enjoy.
And then learning of the upgrade system only to make matters worse for the mentioned before crowd. Sure it's great for those who have been playing since day one, but the bridge gap of those who started and those who've been playing is enormous. So now while I'm struggling to get malv pieces (which is already a huge upgrade from dread) players are upgrading their already owned malv increasing the already huge gear gap.
So honestly the play type of pvp has just turned to gear > skill. I know I don't speak for everyone. But most pvpers want a level playing field to actually compete...and not upgrading gear in an ONGOING season to compete. If I wanted to play the game to where I'm feeling great about being rewarded for grinding weeks after weeks, I'd PvE...just my 2 cents. Once again great ideas Nada!
Edited by Fredhx on 1/6/13 10:32 AM (PST)
i think some of our voices are partially heard by the devs,
at least the gear gap will stop widening via upgrades for people who started the season late. Still the conquest point pool needs to be addressed. If they design the sc2-alike conquest point pool like nadagast's suggestion it'll be perfect.
and honor weapons, plz.