Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

100 Human Priest
17365
Most of the stuff on this front page is from a little earlier in the 5.2 ptr, so it's a little outdated. But the thread is still full of really good stuff, with most of the recent changes being discussed in the last 3-4 pages.

The following is kind of bloggy because I still don't have one. I apologize for the blocks of text.

Power Word: Solace has been redesigned.
Power Word: Solace replaces Holy Fire. It deals the same damage and interacts with other spells and abilities in the same manner, but is instant, costs no mana, and restores 1% of maximum mana on each cast.

- For pvp, this talent might look like a slight buff because it's a new instant for disc, but it's actually still 'worse' compared to mindbender or fdcl. The mana savings you receive from mindbender is better (and flexible unless you play people who cc your pet frequently), and this spell will not be more damage than mindbender because it won't benefit from pvp power. As for an instant with healing, it still pales compared to fdcl because it doesn't yield high atonements. It's also 1 inflexible global on a 10 sec timer and you have other things you could do with that global that's sucking up 10%-15% of your time.
- For pve, this gets interesting. For both specs, this is (optimally) 6% of your mana per minute. For comparison, mindbender is 14.6% per minute and shadowfiend is 8-9%. The most mana gained per encounter will shift in favor of solace IF you can sync a shadowfiend up with a bloodlust or IF the encounter length favors the length of time in multiples of 3 (like, a little after 6 minutes length). This is at the expense of the 6 inflexible globals per minute. This talent will also give you shorter but more frequent temporary window of spell casts if you're oom in an encounter. This talent is still pw: insanity for shadow.
- For holy, it's damage on a 10 second timer. This is 15% (before haste) less healing done under optimal play (on cd). With the new lightspring breakpoint reachable next tier, it's more like a ~13% hps loss (compared to Mindbender's 2% loss).
- For disc, it gets more interesting because if this "technically" replaces holy fire and "interacts with other spells and abilities in the same manner", it will both give atonement and stack evangelism. This means if you were glyphing the instant hf before, you have to take this talent to get the same behavior. This can be more mana, and you would figure with the bonus of more hps, however it's on a 10 second timer that must be optimized close to cd. This means short cd's that are up at the same time and must be used will lessen it's value (penance, rapture, prayer of mending, ect.). Also, spirit shell will lose value if you stop casting valid absorb spells to do a holy fire, so same logic with this talent. You will lose value if you're trying to maximize spirit shell. It's not all negative, this talent will make evangelism more mana friendly, and in the long run make archangel more healing per mana. And if you are casting holy fire anyway, this is also freeing up the mana costs of the otherwise spent holy fires, and technically this is more than a 1% gain an a slight increase of globals per minute. If heavy atonement/archangel play is your preferred, this talent will better support you.

Dominate Mind now has a 1.8 second cast time (was 2.5 seconds).
- for pvp, this is a buff
- for pve, this will make recasting the spell on a mob after it ends a little easier

Angelic Feather now has a 6 second duration (was 4 seconds).
Body and Soul now has a 3 second duration (was 4 seconds).

- for pvp, this is interesting. Angelic feathers will net 3 second more time on your speed boost, but it's still 1 entire global (and the positional hassle) where body and soul still gives a shield AND speed. But angelic feathers still have no mana cost, and the fade talent is still in this tier. The same logic of 5.0 applies, so spec according to your comp. I would still take fade over body and soul or angelic feathers for competitive arena. For heals, it's not as clear cut, but lean on fade at higher play.
- for pve, you still want body and soul if you want to spam on 4 (or more) different people in a row. But they are still unable to get "double" boosted (from weakened soul) and this still costs the 6.1% of our mana per speed boost. For personal use on feathers, we used to be able to run for 16 sec in a row (starting fresh with all 3). Now it's 36.

Glyph of Holy Fire has been redesigned. It now increases the range of Holy Fire, Smite, and Power Word: Solace by 10 yards.
- for pvp, these spells are still largely unused because they do no benefit much from pvp power. However, It's still easier now to use evangelism/archangel as dispel fodder because the instant holy fire moving to a talent frees up that glyph slot to run the standard optimal pvp glyphs while having an instant evangelism stacker.
- for pve, this is a nice quality of life change. On fights with these spells seeing usage, you can position with the group better. This has slightly more value for a 25 man due to the space constraints. This also is much more devalued over it's previous incarnation, so for disc this means a new free glyph slot that isn't always slotted with holy fire.

Focused Will now reduces damage taken by 15% per stack, with a limit of 2 stacks.
- for pvp, just a flat buff (from the previous 10%). With an almost 100% uptime of this when being focused, we are officially more tanky than platewearers (before cd's).
- for pve, a slight buff on those aura fights.

Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.
- for both specs, spirit shell will assume that divine aegis is guaranteed because the crit chance is a fixed modifier under spirit shell. If the new mechanic still rolls to see if a spell crit or not before applying the divine aegis effect, this new effect is a flat nerf to single target healing. Also assume that this new spirit shell is using the 50% divine aegis (instead of the previous 30% it was using even after the buff we got a month back).
- for pvp, this is a buff for you. This is because priests in pvp gear had less than 40% absorbs from their mastery on gear. In later seasons spirit shell won't scale as high as it used to, but it will be better for now (and later seasons stack something besides mastery anyways).
- for pve, this is a nerf if you were over 25% in absorbs from mastery. This is a buff if you were under that. What's funny about the wording of this change is that it says that this now benefits from DA, but the spell has actually always included DA in its calculation (even if it was the 30% instead of the 50% value). What they mean is that instead of mastery just being a flat multiplier on spirit shell, that modifier is only on the da, which is in the spirit shell calc. Here's some quick and dirties:
>>Non-POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * (1 + (Crit % * 0.50))
>>POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * 1.30
>>5.2 POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Crit %) * (1 + ((1 + Mastery %) * 0.50))

Rapture now provides mana equal to 250% (was 200%) of the Priest's Spirit, but no longer benefits from Spirit provided by short duration bonuses.
- for pvp, this is a buff. This is because there was very few temporary spirit procs on your gear or while playing in pvp. This also means that your pw:s is free at 7320 spirit (6222 in inner will)
- for pve this is a nerf. The short term bonuses that were at a fixed proc number (like trinkets, darkglow) were sort of out of line in the sense that they were giving those procs more value as discipline, but what was really out of line was the spirit multiplier effects (mana tide, jade weapon). But understand that this is a good thing. Disc mana scaling was already going to fast, too far. Even if you have temporary spirit buffs, you still should have been using rapture on cooldown for their max benefit (if you were waiting for them, you were doing it ineffectively), so the gameplay should be about the same for you. But what this really means is that the amount of base spirit you stack is entirely up to your personal preference, and spirit procs are playstyle choices once again. At an average level of 15k spirit in the next tier, we're looking at an a 5% mana return from rapture (but if you subtract the cost of the PW:S, it's more like 2.56% return) which is much more reasonable and consistent across different raid comps, with or without a resto shaman. Speaking of those shamans, like shamans this change makes trinkets like Qin-zi's Polarizing Seal a more desirable choice because base spirit is now what effects rapture. That trinket in particular is noteworthy because it has a higher uptime than standard int proc trinkets, so try to get your hands on one. For more consistency (tank heals or aoe) or heavy evangelism usage, you probably want to stick with double int trinks.
The nitty gritty math for how rapture affects me:
>>I have 10839 spirit. 21,678 returned mana from rapture.
>>With all of my procs and tides, I average ~30,148 raptures on current raids.
>>After this change, I will average 27,098 mana from raptures.
Edited by Twistedmind on 3/5/2013 12:54 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
17365
My personal thoughts/reflections:

The changes for disc are obviously for the better. They address growing and glaring concerns, like silly high mastery scaling, rapture abuse, and a most powerful raid wall. The change to solace is not at all what I was expecting. It was basically a copy cat revision of a shaman's TC, but it's basically now a copy cat pally judgement. I think what I like best about it is that if you were doing holy fire on cd anyway, this is an alternative to mindbender. But Mindbender is still best if you're trying to maximize your dps as holy/disc.

Something that wasn't really addressed was the age old question of is archangel a mandatory playstyle? It's been confirmed that this should be something you should opt into circumstantially, but in the current live version the opportunity cost of stacking 5 evangelism is "better" than opting out of using it. This stems from evangelism, making it more hps and more mana effective to spam smites. This is also because penance is just too good offensively. Disc is doing too much dps when left alone to it, but it's also using atonements as the go to spot heal. This isn't bad gameplay, it would just be more interesting if heavy train of thought or heavy strength of soul play was more appealing comparatively. I think the wrong solution would be to adjust the archangel % bonus. I'd be happier if atonement got the mistweaver monk treatment and did something like 85% of the damage done in healing. I'm also a big fan of making it unsustainable, so axing that mana reduction you get from stacking up to 5 stacks evangelism. But this would hit the playstyle of using it during light healing periods really hard. You'd have to use it for archangel purposes only, but that's not a bad thing after looking over logs of when "good people" are pressing archangel.

I don't exactly like the way pvp is getting addressed. I feel that resilience is going to scale faster than we think, and we're going back to being the unkillable, unlimited mana monsters we were at the end of cata, simply because of all the passive mitigation. I would have much rather seen an adjustment to spectral guise or adding flash heal to the greater heal portion of train of thought. Plus, these changes don't really address problems with holy, and they still leave all 3 specs at the mercy of interrupts, moreso than most classes.

And these changes are really moving in the right direction, but they really don't do anything much for holy or shadow. Holy is still inflexible with chakra state cd's, is doing goofy things in pve with dps chastise, and still has wonky coefficients from the earlier PoH change. It also has 2 less mana mechanics than disc, and doesn't really offer interesting niches like absorbs. I still think a step in the right direction would be lower the chakra state cd's, and try to bring out holy thematically. I'm going to be playing around with that new pvp 4-piece bonus for sure.

What makes holy stand out right now? They don't roll waves of water that can crash down with a bigger force the lower hp you're at. The aren't slow to anger, and tranquil with their hots. They aren't righteous avengers that singularly lift champions up to the divine light. They aren't martial arts masters with hidden magics and ancient positional mists. They aren't proactive, shielding, suppressing beings that use focused minds to prevent. I think they should play more with the theme that holy priests are martyrs. If guardian angel form was given cheat death like treatments, that would be a step in the right direction for offering something that is both unique, and really valuable. I feel like a holy priest should value critical hp more because of serendipity, and therefore could use synergy with the new void shift. Take a bullet for someone> die and go guardian angel > come back at 10% hp > void shift someone to save yourself > binding heal.

Also shadow isn't mentioned. Shadow burst in pvp is still either way too powerful, or way too easy to counter, due to the 1 spell school or susceptibility to dispels. And single target pve is scaling poorly.

These proposed changes haven't even been announced, so I'm not holding my breath on any of them. And it looks like our class, and most of the other classes are actually heading in the right directions. Also, at the end of the day, we're really arguing about minute things here. The game very well tuned in its current form, compared to the past and compared to other games.
Edited by Twistedmind on 3/5/2013 12:59 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
6360
12/22/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Twistedmind
For heals, it's not as clear cut.


I disagree so very much on this, Fade is the only means to avoid CC or gap closers like Charge/DG - if you're getting Feathers in PVP, you're doing it wrong.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12315
12/22/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Twistedmind
- For pve, this gets interesting. For both specs, this is (optimally) 6% of your mana per minute. For comparison, mindbender is 14.6% per minute and shadowfiend is 8-9%.


Actually, it's a lot less interesting than you make out. Holy Fire doesn't just restore mana, it costs no mana. So if you cast 6 Holy Fire every minute, you'd be saving 32,400 mana (5400 mp5). Even accounting for moderate casting (let's say 4 Holy Fire/minute) under full Evangelism, Holy Fire still crushes Mindbender for mana purposes - and it saves a glyph slot.
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Medeyn
90 Blood Elf Priest
Tea Bag the Alliance
8380
12/22/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Twistedmind
- For pve, this gets interesting. For both specs, this is (optimally) 6% of your mana per minute. For comparison, mindbender is 14.6% per minute and shadowfiend is 8-9%.

Actually, it's a lot less interesting than you make out. Holy Fire doesn't just restore mana, it costs no mana. So if you cast 6 Holy Fire every minute, you'd be saving 32,400 mana (5400 mp5). Even accounting for moderate casting (let's say 4 Holy Fire/minute) under full Evangelism, Holy Fire still crushes Mindbender for mana purposes - and it s


Curious as to what you would replace it with. Outside Penance and the 6% spell dmg reduc, I don't see any for PvE healing that are "OMG this is good".

Smite one I suppose ain't that bad if you personally have the time to weave em in, If you renew a lot Renew maybe? Levitate? PoM? Not trying to be combative I just don't see much value in most glyphs for most classes.
Edited by Goblnpenance on 12/22/2012 6:33 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
The changes for disc are obviously for the better. They address growing and glaring concerns, like silly high mastery scaling, rapture abuse, and a most powerful raid wall.

Raid wall for disc will be recieving a buff with the way current 5.2 patch notes stand, as it wasn't affected prieviously by agis (50%) ontop of healing but was affected by mastery, approx 40% ish aswell for most disc pve, however now agis is 50% plus agis is affected by our mastery so 50% +0%ish mastery 70% additional benefit to spirit shell from PoH spam, single target spirit shell from GH will be nerfed.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 7:48 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
- for both specs, spirit shell will assume that divine aegis is guaranteed because the crit chance is a fixed modifier under spirit shell. If the new mechanic still rolls to see if a spell crit or not before applying the divine aegis effect, this new effect is a flat nerf to single target healing. Also assume that this new spirit shell is using the 50% divine aegis (instead of the previous 30% it was using even after the buff we got a month back).

From MMO patch notes.
Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.

Spirit shell was ment to be affected by the 50% agis prieviously but wasn't this patch will be fixing that. So even GH spam SS should be buffed as a result.

Also agis has been 50% since November 6 just the tooltip wasn't updated.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7207170
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 7:51 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
For pve, this gets interesting. For both specs, this is (optimally) 6% of your mana per minute. For comparison, mindbender is 14.6% per minute and shadowfiend is 8-9%. The most mana gained per encounter will shift in favor of solace IF you can sync a shadowfiend up with a bloodlust or IF the encounter length favors the length of time in multiples of 3 (like, a little after 6 minutes length). This is at the expense of the 6 inflexible globals per minute. This talent will also give you shorter but more frequent temporary window of spell casts if you're oom in an encounter.

Holy fire costs 5,400 mana, assuming your using it on cooldown (10 secs) thats 6 casts per minute working out to 32,400, add on top of this the 1% mana return per cast x6 per mintue pword solace is with a 300k mana pool 18k mana per minute, totaling 50,400 mana per minute solace will save you over holyfire. Pword solace actually maths out to be 16.8% mana 50,400 per minute, higher than mindbenders 14.6% even without shadowfiend.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 8:05 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
12/22/2012 07:30 AMPosted by Psudo
Holy fire costs 5,400 mana, assuming your using it on cooldown (10 secs) thats 6 casts per minute working out to 32,400, add on top of this the 1% mana return per cast x6 per mintue pword solace is with a 300k mana pool 18k mana per minute, totaling 50,400 mana per minute solace will save you over holyfire. Pword solace actually maths out to be 16.8% mana 50,400 per minute, higher than mindbenders 14.6% even without shadowfiend.


The extra mana may not be worth it if Solace doesn't trigger Atonement or proc Evangalism though.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
Medeyn
90 Blood Elf Priest
Tea Bag the Alliance
8380


12/22/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Twistedmind
- For pve, this gets interesting. For both specs, this is (optimally) 6% of your mana per minute. For comparison, mindbender is 14.6% per minute and shadowfiend is 8-9%.

Actually, it's a lot less interesting than you make out. Holy Fire doesn't just restore mana, it costs no mana. So if you cast 6 Holy Fire every minute, you'd be saving 32,400 mana (5400 mp5). Even accounting for moderate casting (let's say 4 Holy Fire/minute) under full Evangelism, Holy Fire still crushes Mindbender for mana purposes - and it saves a glyph slot.


Should have read further beaten to it lol.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/22/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Ceddya
The extra mana may not be worth it if Solace doesn't trigger Atonement or proc Evangalism though.

according to patch notes solice will be affected by everything holyfire is currently, leading to believe it will grant a AA stack & give attonement heal as well.

From mmo http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

Power Word: Solace has been redesigned.
Power Word: Solace replaces Holy Fire. It deals the same damage and interacts with other spells and abilities in the same manner, but is instant, costs no mana, and restores 1% of maximum mana on each cast.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 8:07 AM PST
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90 Worgen Priest
8035
With the new changes to SS not benefiting from mastery, will we be seeing crit pull ahead?
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/22/2012 08:06 AMPosted by Boojí
With the new changes to SS not benefiting from mastery, will we be seeing crit pull ahead?


SS no longer benefits from mastery however it will now be properly affected by crit and agis, both of which are affected by mastery, you crit you get a higher heal and a agis = to 50% of the crit then the agis gets mastery, all of this then transfers to the spirit shell.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
according to patch notes solice will be affected by everything holyfire is currently, leading to believe it will grant a AA stack & give attonement heal as well.

From mmo http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

Priest (Forums / Skills / Talent Calculator)

Power Word: Solace has been redesigned.
Power Word: Solace replaces Holy Fire. It deals the same damage and interacts with other spells and abilities in the same manner, but is instant, costs no mana, and restores 1% of maximum mana on each cast.


Ah, perfect! Looks like Solace will be the new go-to talent for any Disc Priest who uses AA.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
sadly, keep in mind these are all PTR patch notes for a PTR that isn't even available yet. Very possable may change before live.
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100 Human Priest
17365
Let me further clarify the new holy fire:
The new solace replaces holy fire and will stack evangelism, and behave in the same way (as in, leave a lingering 7 second dot and have the same spell coefficient). It will also cost no mana, and be instant. Holy fire is a 10 second cooldown, so the perfect play will be 6% mana per minute, because 6 holyfires per 60 seconds.

Minbender is 1.46% mana per melee swing. At a 15 sec duration, this is 10 swings (modified by melee haste) so currently it's 14.6% mana. Shadowfiend is 3% per melee swing, and lasts 12 seconds. So it's 24% divided by 3 to find the mana per minute of 8. The melee swing timer of your pet doesn't reset, so after a few times of use, it will gain an extra melee swing under certain haste levels, and for me (and most likely, you) that was every 3, hence the additional 1% in my listed above.

The new solace doesn't "crush" mindbender. It's shadowfiend mana plus solace mana: 8.5% + 6% = 14.5%. Mindbender is 14.6%. Mindbender still only costs one global per minute, instead of the solace which would be 6.3 globals per minute under perfect play. So there still isn't a go to talent. Reread the first post for more explanations.
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90 Night Elf Priest
7875
I lol @ the Body and Soul nerf everytime..
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100 Human Priest
17365
The new spirit shell is also confusing. Reread the first post, especially the forumulas. We're speculating that the new formula is:
POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Crit %) * (1 + ((1 + Mastery %) * 0.50))

The 0.5 is the divine aegis portion of the calculation as the new spirit shell includes it. Divine aegis still benefits from mastery, so the new spirit shell also scales with mastery, just not as much. It just doesn't have the multiplier like from the old formula:
POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * 1.30

As you can see, the old formula was still using the 30% multiplier for Divine Aegis instead of the 50% one. When they buffed Divine Aegis from 30% to 50%, the left Spirit Shell out. But Divine Aegis has always been a part of the Spirit Shell calculation. The difference now is that Mastery is only going to be multiplied with the aegis portion, instead of just being multiplied on top of the whole thing.

The reason I'm throwing around 40% in mastery as the sweet spot for this being a buff or nerf is because I did a graph of the Divine Aegis * mastery to see where it intersected with the Spirit Shell * Mastery. That number was at 40% mastery, so if you had less than 40%, this is a buff. If you had over, it's a slight nerf, but it's for the better because it was scaling way too fast.
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100 Human Priest
17365
Also, some more info on Holy Fire turning into Solace:
If you do not use holy fire/shadowfiend or mindbender on cd, they are all losing value. I gave some examples of how the new solace will lose value by the truckload because playing perfectly (every 10 seconds on the nose) is almost impossible with so many short term cd's the come off cd and need to be used again. It also shouldn't be used during spirit shell if you want to maximize spirit shell's effectiveness, so that alone is once per minute where you are waiting for 15 seconds to use a holy fire.

So the just get to a conclusion for those that are impatient:
Use solace for heavy archangel atonement fights
Use mindbender for heavy prayer of healing fights
Use from darkness comes light for heavy single heal fights
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/17/2013 3:21 AM PST
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90 Troll Priest
10205
From the wording it sounds more like SS is becoming just like a normal heal that can actually crit, since they use the word "critical effect chance" in the description (unless they used those same word to explain the old way SS worked). So you'd cast a spell that would normally heal for 10 K, under SS it would buble for 10K with a possibility of criting for 20K + 10K from DA modified by mastery.

I do think that most of the change are just reaction to the last buff, blizz is realizing (or maybe they knew all along) that the DA and rapture buff were too much, so now there gonna nerf us everywhere else too make up for it while hiding that the change were too big.
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