Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

100 Human Priest
17880
From the wording it sounds more like SS is becoming just like a normal heal that can actually crit, since they use the word "critical effect chance" in the description (unless they used those same word to explain the old way SS worked). So you'd cast a spell that would normally heal for 10 K, under SS it would buble for 10K with a possibility of criting for 20K + 10K from DA modified by mastery.

I do think that most of the change are just reaction to the last buff, blizz is realizing (or maybe they knew all along) that the DA and rapture buff were too much, so now there gonna nerf us everywhere else too make up for it while hiding that the change were too big.


Naw, that's the way they addressed it when it came out. Then they further explained that instead of a chance to do something 16% of the time, spirit shell gets multiplied by a flat 16% (assuming you have 16% in crit rating).

What they're really doing is tuning of spirit shell for people who have low mastery, and axing the mastery scaling for people with high mastery.
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The new solace doesn't "crush" mindbender. It's shadowfiend mana plus solace mana: 8.5% + 6% = 14.5%. Mindbender is 14.6%. Mindbender still only costs one global per minute, instead of the solace which would be 6.3 globals per minute under perfect play. So there still isn't a go to talent. Reread the first post for more explanations.


This isn't the whole story though. While the math is in, and of, itself correct... to get the real life (so to speak) numbers you have to account for the cost in time of HF no longer being instant and deduct the cost of HF from the regen.
Edited by Morenn on 12/22/2012 11:54 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12875
12/22/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Twistedmind
The new solace doesn't "crush" mindbender. It's shadowfiend mana plus solace mana: 8.5% + 6% = 14.5%. Mindbender is 14.6%. Mindbender still only costs one global per minute, instead of the solace which would be 6.3 globals per minute under perfect play. So there still isn't a go to talent. Reread the first post for more explanations.


You're overlooking the fact that you're casting Holy Fire whether or not you have the talent. So even if you're only using it every 20 sec, the fact that you're saving 1.5 sec (pre-haste) of casting time and 1.8% * 3 mana over and above the explicit mana return is what 'crushes' Mindbender.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
The new solace replaces holy fire and will stack evangelism, and behave in the same way (as in, leave a lingering 7 second dot and have the same spell coefficient). It will also cost no mana, and be instant. Holy fire is a 10 second cooldown, so the perfect play will be 6% mana per minute, because 6 holyfires per 60 seconds.

your completely ignoring the 32400 mana per minute you would be spending casting your holyfire that you now dont spend, add that ontop of the 6% per minute from solace works to 16.8% mana per minute. The maths is simple and multiple people have pointed this out to you.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 3:37 PM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
The 0.5 is the divine aegis portion of the calculation as the new spirit shell includes it. Divine aegis still benefits from mastery, so the new spirit shell also scales with mastery, just not as much. It just doesn't have the multiplier like from the old formula:
POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * 1.30

Also as pointed out with direct links to patch notes as a guide for you, agis has been 50% since november 6th not 30%
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100 Human Priest
17880
12/22/2012 11:53 AMPosted by Morenn
The new solace doesn't "crush" mindbender. It's shadowfiend mana plus solace mana: 8.5% + 6% = 14.5%. Mindbender is 14.6%. Mindbender still only costs one global per minute, instead of the solace which would be 6.3 globals per minute under perfect play. So there still isn't a go to talent. Reread the first post for more explanations.


This isn't the whole story though. While the math is in, and of, itself correct... to get the real life (so to speak) numbers you have to account for the cost in time of HF no longer being instant and deduct the cost of HF from the regen.

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you save more mana with mindbender because every 10 seconds you will be casting a holy fire that's an additional mp5 because of the spell save mana with high spirit and evangelism stacks? The comparison I was showing was to illustrate that the new solace (when played perfectly) is equal returns on mana after shadowfiend compared to mindbender. I posted it because people seemed to be jumping on the train of solace being superior regen, and it's not.

12/22/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Medeyn
The new solace doesn't "crush" mindbender. It's shadowfiend mana plus solace mana: 8.5% + 6% = 14.5%. Mindbender is 14.6%. Mindbender still only costs one global per minute, instead of the solace which would be 6.3 globals per minute under perfect play. So there still isn't a go to talent. Reread the first post for more explanations.


You're overlooking the fact that you're casting Holy Fire whether or not you have the talent. So even if you're only using it every 20 sec, the fact that you're saving 1.5 sec (pre-haste) of casting time and 1.8% * 3 mana over and above the explicit mana return is what 'crushes' Mindbender.

Well, in your example, the mana you're saving can be represented with:
{ [ holy fire mana cost * (1 - (evangelism stack number*0.06)) ] - [ holy fire cast time * (your mp5 / 5) ] } * number of casts per minute + [ average shadowfiend mana per minute ]

and compare that formula to average mindbender mana per minute. With my spirit and haste, this number is ( 4428 - 4136.44 ) * 3 casts + shadowfiend mana = 292 extra mana per minute I didn't include + shadowfiend.
The mana savings vary because of evangelism, but you're bringing to attention extra mana that from the untalented solace equation that is almost negligible.

As for showing how much time you're saving, you can simply express:
{ [ ( 2 / haste number % ) - ( 1.5 / haste number % ) ] * number of casts per minute } + { shadowfiend global cd / 3 }
and compare that to the ( 1.5 / haste number % ) that you'd be spending on mindbender

At your proposed holy fire every 20 seconds, you're actually saving more time per minute by using mindbender
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100 Human Priest
17880
The 0.5 is the divine aegis portion of the calculation as the new spirit shell includes it. Divine aegis still benefits from mastery, so the new spirit shell also scales with mastery, just not as much. It just doesn't have the multiplier like from the old formula:
POH Shell = Average Heal * (1 + Mastery %) * (1 + Crit %) * 1.30

Also as pointed out with direct links to patch notes as a guide for you, agis has been 50% since november 6th not 30%

The divine aegis coefficient for Spirit Shell was still at 0.3 after the november 6 change. We don't know why, but it just stayed the same. So my old formula that I illustrated is the one that's being used still, even in patch 5.1. The proposed new formula I showed is what we (myself, Volios, Dayani) have speculated that the new formula will be with the 5.2 change. I'm simply trying to show the math to support where I'm coming from by conclusively saying that if you had below 40% in mastery, the change is a buff. If you had above 40% in mastery, it's a nerf.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/22/2012 04:03 PMPosted by Twistedmind
At your proposed holy fire every 20 seconds, you're actually saving more time per minute by using mindbender

where di 20seconds come from, i said HF on cooldown (10secs) 6 times per minute, and as for rotation, solace will be giving us 2 extra GCD's to spend every 3minutes over mindbender as 6x solacex3mins=18+1 shadowfiend or 6xholyfirex3mins=18 + 3 mindbenders = 21 gcds. For disc, to keep AA going you are casting HF on cd every 10secs without fail, that will not change at all once slotted with solace.
Yousing your own maths mindbender works out to be
12/22/2012 03:02 AMPosted by Twistedmind
mindbender is 14.6% per minute

6 holyfires you dont have to pay for + 6% regen per minute ontop from solace grants the user a total of 50400 mana saving per minute 16.8% of 300k then we still get to add shadowfiends regen ontop, approx 3% per minute 9000 mana totaling 59,400 mana per minute saving 19.8% mana per minute
where as mindbenders 14.6% per minute only maths to be 43800 per minute,
All said Solace will work out to a cleaner rotation with a greater mana regen, Win/Win for disc.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 4:19 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
17880
12/22/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Psudo
The new solace replaces holy fire and will stack evangelism, and behave in the same way (as in, leave a lingering 7 second dot and have the same spell coefficient). It will also cost no mana, and be instant. Holy fire is a 10 second cooldown, so the perfect play will be 6% mana per minute, because 6 holyfires per 60 seconds.

your completely ignoring the 32400 mana per minute you would be spending casting your holyfire that you now dont spend, add that ontop of the 6% per minute from solace works to 16.8% mana per minute. The maths is simple and multiple people have pointed this out to you.

That's actually a little off. Factors that must also be considered are evangelism stacks at the time of casting each holy fire. Haste to factor for the disparity in number of other spell casts per minute. And passive mana regen to account for the true value of mana spent per holy fire, which is a variable number that can be subject to spirit procs, mana gains, and mana capping at the time of the spell cast. You cannot do 6 * mana cost of holy fire + 6% mana back = 16.8% and draw the hasty conclusion that this is worlds better than mindbender. Don't get me wrong, it looks very appealing as disc, but it's going to be situational. On high throughput fights, I'll still be taking mindbender because it's "clearly superior" mana gains vs. lost throughput.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/22/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Twistedmind
And passive mana regen to account for the true value of mana spent per holy fire, which is a variable number that can be subject to spirit procs

ignoring your opening solace which will cost nothing and grant 1% mana when your allready full (which you could get around by opening with a PWS then a pennance to drop from max mana, by the time youve reached 5xAA your pennance will be off cd anyways to stack grace), once your no longer at full you will still be pasively regening the exact same amount of mana from gear as you would with the other spec, and the spirit procs will happen at the same frequency as your still using a gcd where you would have preiviously, whats your point?
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 4:27 PM PST
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90 Troll Priest
10205
I can't conceive of a single fight where you would take mindbender over solace as disc (if solace does proc atonment which is what I understand it does). Maybe some sort of fight where you have an 1-2 minute where you have to spam cast like mad and then 5 minute with nothing to do so that you're mana would top off no matter what?
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/22/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Meit
I can't conceive of a single fight where you would take mindbender over solace as disc (if solace does proc atonment which is what I understand it does). Maybe some sort of fight where you have an 1-2 minute where you have to spam cast like mad and then 5 minute with nothing to do so that you're mana would top off no matter what?

totaly agree, the only reason disc will end up specing out of solace is once our mana regen is such we can choose FDCTL instead for the insta flash heals for emergancys, of which personaly i havent used mindbender for pve ever disc have enough mana regen to last thru heroic raids in avg 490+ ilv gear and proper regen management + not blowing thru your mana like a beast for no reason without it.
And to add some evidence to this claim garalon 25H a extremely heavy healing fight, World rank 22(for disc priest) without mindbender or solace, as they are unnessicary if you manage mana properly.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kx360k51adgsnn2p/
I'm in the top 100 if not 200 for most other heroic and normal 25 fights from this tier for priests aswell, all without mindbender.

And as for over doing AA stax,
That's actually a little off. Factors that must also be considered are evangelism stacks at the time of casting each holy fire.
unless your smite spamming because there is no damage to heal, with a CD of 30secs for AA 3x HF/Solace + 2 pennance on a mob and 1 on tank for grace = 5stax exactly every 30seconds without any wastage.
Edited by Psudo on 12/22/2012 4:48 PM PST
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100 Human Priest
17880
I don't understand where the hostility is coming from. Nor do I want to engage in a confrontation because my intention was to inform, not to fight.

To answer this:
12/22/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Meit
I can't conceive of a single fight where you would take mindbender over solace as disc (if solace does proc atonment which is what I understand it does). Maybe some sort of fight where you have an 1-2 minute where you have to spam cast like mad and then 5 minute with nothing to do so that you're mana would top off no matter what?

I'm going to be looking at sticking with mindbender on heavy constant aoe fights for both holy and disc. This will be even further reinforced with the 4 piece set bonus because of the ease of stacking evangelism with only penance. To me, the constant damage in a 10 man must be addressed more immediately, so the choice is more, "which talent works best with the type of aoe healing?" On aura fights, mindbender does sync with spirit shell which for me dictates 6 back-to-back casts of PoH. It's still going to be something I evaluate on a per fight basis (see http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794980143 ).

Kind of hoping to engage others who aren't out to get me in case something else like http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7415463714#3 was overlooked.
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100 Human Priest
17880
Also, to clarify on the formulas I was linking (after re-reading this thread).

- For spirit shell, I was showing that Divine Aegis is a part of the current live spirit shell calculation. I was also showing that the whole spell was being multiplied by your mastery percentage in the live version. If this change goes through, mastery will most likely be applied to the Divine Aegis portion only, which will most likely be changed from 30% to 50%. All of this is speculation, but I'm drawing on the explanation of the spell when it was first proposed in the Beta Class Analysis thread and trying to interpret their wording. I fully expect gc tweets to further clarify this.

- For holy fire, I was trying to arrange some formulas to show the differences in mana gained because the new pw:s is an instant (1.5 before haste) and the unglyphed holy fire is 2 sec, which means that we should account for the passive mana gains we receive from the 2 sec cast over a 1.5 sec (that has no cost). Hopefully that makes sense. I understand where you're all coming from by saying that the cost of a holy fire should be accounted for. And this does feel like a bad design for disc because of the extra incentive from atonement. I also tried to illustrate practical casting at 20 sec because of one poster's example. The more reasonable average cast of holy fire is probably closer to 15 sec.

I'll put in a sentence on the first post for clarity to reinforce that the new pw:s modifying holy fire is removing its mana cost to make it abundantly clear that this isn't a flat 1% return.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Spirit shell PoH is currently the full heal plus a 30% divine aegis, all multiplied by mastery and crit. 50% mastery yields a 195% heal compared to the non-divine aegis portion of a normal PoH before adding crit. Post nerf, it will be the full heal plus 50% divine aegis times mastery, so at 50% mastery the heal will be 162.5% of a normal PoH. The crit scaling on top of both of those remains unchanged.

The real problem though isn't the massive 15%+ nerf to spirit shell, it's the destruction of our mastery in general. Spirit shell and Power Word shield are the only two spells we have where Mastery outscales Crit or Haste. Post Nerf, a 1% increase to spirit shell will require the same 600 crit or 425 haste, but it will require 720 mastery. Non-Spirit shell PoH also (currently) requires 720 mastery to increase 1%, and other non-spirit shell spells require up to about 3600 mastery to gain 1%, depending on crit (spirit shell and PoH do not depend on crit).

The only way Mastery could possibly be desireable post nerf is if you Spam PWS for roughly 50% of your healing, possibly more. Basically in any possible situation, Mastery becomes a stat to avoid at all costs. This will ultimately make your single target and responsive emergancy healing suffer (weaker PWS), but it will also greatly reduce either your mana efficiency (stacking haste) or reliability (stacking crit). This is basically a killing blow to the spec as it is.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/22/2012 7:13 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/22/2012 11:49 AMPosted by Meit
From the wording it sounds more like SS is becoming just like a normal heal that can actually crit, since they use the word "critical effect chance" in the description (unless they used those same word to explain the old way SS worked). So you'd cast a spell that would normally heal for 10 K, under SS it would buble for 10K with a possibility of criting for 20K + 10K from DA modified by mastery.


If logical assumptions are correct the only difference for a SS heal and a non SS heal post 5.2 is a SS heal is a full absorb with the critical strike chance baked into it. Outside of these two differences the spells will be the same.

When I say "logical assumptions" I mean the assumption that mastery will continue to interact with DA on SS heals but not on the healing part of the spell. If they make it so mastery doesn't interact with the healing or DA portion of SS heals then..... I really don't know what to say.

I'm not sure I like the change at all. Sotanaht does a pretty good job of describing why above.
Edited by Volios on 12/22/2012 7:11 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
The only way Mastery could possibly be desireable post nerf is if you Spam PWS for roughly 50% of your healing, possibly more. Basically in any possible situation, Mastery becomes a stat to avoid at all costs. This will ultimately make your single target and responsive emergancy healing suffer (weaker PWS), but it will also greatly reduce either your mana efficiency (stacking haste) or reliability (stacking crit). This is basically a killing blow to the spec as it is.


Surely this is an overreaction? If you keep your current stats, even a 15% nerf to SS results in an overall 5% nerf to throughput (based on SS comprising 30% of total heals). With how far ahead Disc Priests are right now, this slight reduction seems warranted and it isn't going to kill the spec.

In the same vein, all Disc Priests are doing right now is stacking Mastery at the expense of every other stat as it scales far too well with SS. All 5.2 will do is make it so that we redistribute our stats more evenly.

Looking at current numbers, DA makes up 30% of my heals and PW:S between 5-7% depending on the fight. That's ~35% of our throughput best affected by Mastery. With DA stacking being so powerful and looking to stay, it's going to be much more reliable and efficient to still stack Mastery.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 8:18 PM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
i wasn't being hostile i was merely pointing out that your maths was wrong and the reason i did so is that new players dont look at your maths and take it as gospel, your post is extremely well presented and but for the miss information in it i would bump it for a sticky but as it stands you refuse to accept that your post has errors in it, and get offended when someone attempts to help by correcting the mistakes.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
12/22/2012 08:17 PMPosted by Ceddya
The only way Mastery could possibly be desireable post nerf is if you Spam PWS for roughly 50% of your healing, possibly more. Basically in any possible situation, Mastery becomes a stat to avoid at all costs. This will ultimately make your single target and responsive emergancy healing suffer (weaker PWS), but it will also greatly reduce either your mana efficiency (stacking haste) or reliability (stacking crit). This is basically a killing blow to the spec as it is.


Surely this is an overreaction? If you keep your current stats, even a 15% nerf to SS results in an overall 5% nerf to throughput (based on SS comprising 30% of total heals). With how far ahead Disc Priests are right now, this slight reduction seems warranted and it isn't going to kill the spec.

In the same vein, all Disc Priests are doing right now is stacking Mastery at the expense of every other stat as it scales far too well with SS. All 5.2 will do is make it so that we redistribute our stats more evenly.

Looking at current numbers, DA makes up 30% of my heals and PW:S between 5-7% depending on the fight. That's ~35% of our throughput best affected by Mastery. With DA stacking being so powerful and looking to stay, it's going to be much more reliable and efficient to still stack Mastery.


Maybe the "killing blow" bit is an overreaction, but the utter destruction of our mastery is far from it. The stats as they stand now are fairly balanced, and there are some convincing arguments to stack crit or haste (You should pretty much ALWAYS stack one stat, the question is just "which"). Post patch, my best estimate Mastery will be worth about .6 crit, so basically completely worthless.

I just think that a spec with a worthless mastery, relegated to scaling based on crit as a healer, and with it's signature abilities and utility being nerfed so heavily, is pretty much dead.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/22/2012 9:17 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Maybe the "killing blow" bit is an overreaction, but the utter destruction of our mastery is far from it. The stats as they stand now are fairly balanced, and there are some convincing arguments to stack crit or haste (You should pretty much ALWAYS stack one stat, the question is just "which"). Post patch, my best estimate Mastery will be worth about .6 crit, so basically completely worthless.

I just think that a spec with a worthless mastery, relegated to scaling based on crit as a healer, and with it's signature abilities and utility being nerfed so heavily, is pretty much dead.


How exactly is Mastery worthless though? Compared to Crit, it benefits DA in a 2.5:1 ratio and SS in a 0.83:1 ratio.

There's a reason why almost every top Disc Priest stacks Mastery, and that's because Mastery is far too overvalued right now. 5.2 appears to be changing it so that the choice between Crit and Mastery isn't so clear cut, and Disc Priests are probably going to have to choose whether they want to have more reliable and consistent DAs versus having bigger SS numbers.

Even with the nerfs to SS, its output and burst potential will still provide far more utility than any other CD in the game, simply by the expedient of being able to use it pre-emptively. To keep the interaction between Mastery and SS the way it is now would simply mean we'd once again scale better than the other healers, something which isn't good for the balance of the game.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/22/2012 9:33 PM PST
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