Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Maybe the "killing blow" bit is an overreaction, but the utter destruction of our mastery is far from it. The stats as they stand now are fairly balanced, and there are some convincing arguments to stack crit or haste (You should pretty much ALWAYS stack one stat, the question is just "which"). Post patch, my best estimate Mastery will be worth about .6 crit, so basically completely worthless.

I just think that a spec with a worthless mastery, relegated to scaling based on crit as a healer, and with it's signature abilities and utility being nerfed so heavily, is pretty much dead.


How exactly is Mastery worthless though? Compared to Crit, it benefits DA in a 2.5:1 ratio and SS in a 0.83:1 ratio.

There's a reason why almost every top Disc Priest stacks Mastery, and that's because Mastery is far too overvalued right now. 5.2 appears to be changing it so that the choice between Crit and Mastery isn't so clear cut, and Disc Priests are probably going to have to choose whether they want to have more reliable and consistent DAs versus having bigger SS numbers.

Even with the nerfs to SS, its output and burst potential will still provide far more utility than any other CD in the game, simply by the expedient of being able to use it pre-emptively. To keep the interaction between Mastery and SS the way it is now would simply mean we'd once again scale better than the other healers, something which isn't good for the balance of the game.


Compared to crit it benefits Prayer of Healing at a .83:1 ratio, and other heals at a .11:1 ratio. You don't use just the Divine Aegis portion of a heal. If you go by your logs, DA is 30% of your heals, so to raise your total healing 1% by raising divine aegis you need 800 rating. You need to look at it based on either the log weights or entire spells, not divine aegis alone

The fact is that, post nerf, the amount of Mastery required to raise your TOTAL healing by 1% based on any reasonable distribution of spellcasts and yes, overhealing, is going to be significantly higher than the amount of crit or haste needed to do the same thing. By significantly I mean anywhere between 30% and 1000% depending on the spell breakdown.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/22/2012 9:43 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Compared to crit it benefits Prayer of Healing at a .83:1 ratio, and other heals at a .11:1 ratio. You don't use just the Divine Aegis portion of a heal. If you go by your logs, DA is 30% of your heals, so to raise your total healing 1% by raising divine aegis you need 800 rating. You need to look at it based on either the log weights or entire spells, not divine aegis alone


Why wouldn't you look at DA alone? Judging Mastery against Crit based on the whole PoH heal is fallacious, as we both know just how much more healing DA does compared to PoH, especially with our ability to stack DAs from PoH.

Similarly, to raise our total by 1% by increasing DA would require 2000 crit rating. I guess Mastery isn't looking so bad after all?
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/22/2012 09:29 PMPosted by Ceddya
There's a reason why almost every top Disc Priest stacks Mastery, and that's because Mastery is far too overvalued right now. 5.2 appears to be changing it so that the choice between Crit and Mastery isn't so clear cut, and Disc Priests are probably going to have to choose whether they want to have more reliable and consistent DAs versus having bigger SS numbers.


I think you would agree mastery scaling too well on SS isn't because SS was designed poorly before. Mastery was scaling too well on SS because mastery scales too well, period. Instead of toning down the stat that is scaling too well they have chosen to nerf a single ability. I don't think this attacks the problem at it's source nor is it a good long term solution. This is why I don't like the change.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
12/22/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Volios
I think you would agree mastery scaling too well on SS isn't because SS was designed poorly before. Mastery was scaling too well on SS because mastery scales too well, period. Instead of toning down the stat that is scaling too well they have chosen to nerf a single ability. I don't think this attacks the problem at it's source nor is it a good long term solution. This is why I don't like the change.


I agree that there are certainly issues with how well Mastery is scaling with SS right now and it's overvaluing Mastery. I kind of like the supposed new SS/Mastery interaction as it serves to tone down SS slightly whilst preventing it from scaling far too well. I just can't think of any other way to do this without completely overhauling our Mastery.

I think our main disagreement will come from how good/bad we think Mastery will be in 5.2. While I agree that it's not going to be ideal if you look at SS alone, the fact that it's by far the best stat for DA stacking and PW:S should more than compensate. Still, I'm basing this on my instincts, and I could be completely wrong for all I know.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
12/22/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Ceddya
Compared to crit it benefits Prayer of Healing at a .83:1 ratio, and other heals at a .11:1 ratio. You don't use just the Divine Aegis portion of a heal. If you go by your logs, DA is 30% of your heals, so to raise your total healing 1% by raising divine aegis you need 800 rating. You need to look at it based on either the log weights or entire spells, not divine aegis alone


Why wouldn't you look at DA alone? Judging Mastery against Crit based on the whole PoH heal is fallacious, as we both know just how much more healing DA does compared to PoH, especially with our ability to stack DAs from PoH.

Similarly, to raise our total by 1% by increasing DA would require 2000 crit rating. I guess Mastery isn't looking so bad after all?


There's no arguing with the willfully ignorant I guess. I've already explained to you what the numbers look like even from your own log numbers, if you haven't grasped the concept by now you never will.

Also, a 1% increase in DA from PoH requires a 1% crit rating ie 600 rating. Stop pulling numbers out of your !@#.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/22/2012 11:52 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
There's no arguing with the willfully ignorant I guess. I've already explained to you what the numbers look like even from your own log numbers, if you haven't grasped the concept by now you never will.

Also, a 1% increase in DA from PoH requires a 1% crit rating ie 600 rating. Stop pulling numbers out of your !@#.


I said that to increase our total output (must have missed that word when I typed it) from DA alone would require 2000 crit rating. Even with that missing word, surely you got that point, seeing as you tried to use it in your earlier statement - 'DA is 30% of your heals, so to raise your total healing 1% by raising divine aegis you need 800 rating. You need to look at it based on either the log weights or entire spells, not divine aegis alone'. Why would you use this argument against Mastery but then use a completely different context to present the numerical contribution to DA from Crit?

To be clear, a 1% increase in DA from PoH requires 1% mastery or 240 rating, much less than what's required from Crit.

Since you're so adamant about using my logs, the fact remains that DA makes a significant portion of our heals, and it's quite obvious that our Mastery benefits DA much more than Crit. That combined with the fact that Mastery boosts our PW:S too is why I disagree with you on the potential value of Mastery in 5.2.

The question now is whether the combined contribution of Mastery to our total absorbs is much less than the benefit Crit brings to both our absorbs and actual heals, or, actually sufficient to completely devalue our Mastery to the point of worthlessness. You have yet to actually present any numerical data to show otherwise, and I'll be more than glad to concede the argument if you're able to.
Edited by Ceddya on 12/23/2012 12:15 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Im only using the log numbers you gave me. And you REALLY need to put some more thought into doing actual healing with your actually healing spells, you do not cast PoH for the divine aegis alone (at least not often). I can see an argument for Crit turning that into overhealing, but that road leads to haste.

Ive given you the numbers for the individual spells already. But I guess you want applied numbers, those are just as !@#$.

So here' a log, http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hujawmpmb7e89tyd/details/24/?s=1124&e=1845

Spirit shell is 28.5, divine aegis is 26.2, PWS is 7.4, and all other healing combined is 37.7%. I have 54.45% mastery with raid buffs. Mastery currently accounts for 10.0% from Spirit Shell, 9.2%from Divine Aegis, 2.6% from PWS.

I don't actually need to go any further, I've pretty much proved mastery is already a fairly bad stat. it's 21.8% of my total healing coming from 54.45% mastery. Post Patch I would only getting 3.9% from Spirit shell mastery, dropping it to 16.5% of my healing (after adjusting for the 3.3% loss in total healing).
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/23/2012 12:39 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
Spirit shell PoH is currently the full heal plus a 30% divine aegis, all multiplied by mastery and crit. 50% mastery yields a 195% heal compared to the non-divine aegis portion of a normal PoH before adding crit. Post nerf, it will be the full heal plus 50% divine aegis times mastery, so at 50% mastery the heal will be 162.5% of a normal PoH. The crit scaling on top of both of those remains unchanged.

50% of 50%(the agis part of the 150% total heal affected by mastery) is actually 25% not 12.5% totaling 175%,(1 + (.5 x 1.5)) (or another simpler way, 1 + 50%(agis) + 50% of 50%(mastery on agis)= 1.75) still below 195% yes, so yes the output of spirit shell will recieve a 20% nerf out of 195% (11.4% total output nerf for spirit shell), however it will have 0 effect on maxed out spirit shells as the max is a direct relation to 60% of the casting priests max HP, 10 mans basicly will have 0 effect, 25 it will be minimal.
Edited by Psudo on 12/23/2012 12:32 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Im only using the log numbers you gave me. And you REALLY need to put some more thought into doing actual healing with your actually healing spells, you do not cast PoH for the divine aegis alone (at least not often). I can see an argument for Crit turning that into overhealing, but that road leads to haste.


Clearly, on fights with timers that line up with SS, why would you have to stack DA? Then you move on to fights whereby SS cannot be used for every burst, and that's when you see the actual benefit of DA stacking.

Look at the relative values for DA and PoH in these fights, and also look closely at the overhealing for PoH.

H-Lei Shi - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ugwgv97ivfk6ckki/details/10/?s=13919&e=14351
H-Amber-shaper - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rjx6eubi0c4c8amn/details/9/?s=2955&e=3360
H-Shek'zeer - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rjx6eubi0c4c8amn/details/9/?s=9146&e=10035

It's quite clear that even after the nerfs to SS, Mastery will still be a good stat if DA makes up a substantial portion of your heals. It won't be the go-to stat for every situation anymore, but that hardly makes it 'worthless' and Disc completely 'killed'.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
12/23/2012 12:17 AMPosted by Psudo
Spirit shell PoH is currently the full heal plus a 30% divine aegis, all multiplied by mastery and crit. 50% mastery yields a 195% heal compared to the non-divine aegis portion of a normal PoH before adding crit. Post nerf, it will be the full heal plus 50% divine aegis times mastery, so at 50% mastery the heal will be 162.5% of a normal PoH. The crit scaling on top of both of those remains unchanged.

50% of 50%(the agis part of the 150% total heal affected by mastery) is actually 25% not 12.5% totaling 175%,(1 + (.5 x 1.5)) (or another simpler way, 1 + 50%(agis) + 50% of 50%(mastery on agis)= 1.75) still below 195% yes, so yes the output of spirit shell will recieve a 20% nerf out of 195% (11.4% total output nerf for spirit shell), however it will have 0 effect on maxed out spirit shells as the max is a direct relation to 60% of the casting priests max HP, 10 mans basicly will have 0 effect, 25 it will be minimal.


If you are capping Spirit shell, you are casting it too soon. Mastery doesn't have "no effect" unless you are playing badly since you will NEVER cap in a single cast, or even 2 casts via PoH without Inner Focus.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/23/2012 12:49 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
If you are capping Spirit shell, you are casting it too soon. Mastery doesn't have "no effect" unless you are playing badly.

Capping spirit shell happens all the time in 10mans, currently with AA can be done in 2 PoH's ( AA being a 30sec cd and spirit shell being 1minute these line up perfectly if needed for pro-active healing fights) for each grp, and with avg gear you can get in 6 PoH during 1 SS so even if with the nerf you end up needing that extra cast as a result of the 11.4% output nerf you will still cap SS if played correctly and linked with other multiplyers, before say, blade lord does blade storm hitting every1 for avg 275k, about the same as a maxed out spirit shell, so if you havent maxed it b4 then you are wasting healing. i wasnt saying mastery has 0 effect i was saying the nerf to spirit shell being directly effected by mastery will have little to 0 effect/impact for use of a better word on spirit shells healing.

In 25's normaly you wont cap out more than 2 grps as with your 6 casts of PoH during SS you can reliably hit 4 grps as as is norm with 25 1 grp is normally to spread for PoH to be effective, (even if you do get all 5 grps 1 will still get a dbl dip) and 2nd coat 2 of the 4 grps capping them out. now they may not be capped, but that depends on how much over cap the 2nd heal was with 25% AAif more than 11.4% will not effect 2 poH shells, only the grps that only recieved 1 application.
Edited by Psudo on 12/23/2012 12:58 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
It's the same thing, if removing mastery has 0 effect in that situation it can only be because mastery has 0 effect to start with.

Regardless, no, you aren't capping in 2, you are capping on your 3rd since the cap is in the 240-260 range (60% of your HP) and non innerfocus PoH spirit shells with archangel do in the 90-100 range. What you should be doing is casting spirit shell roughly 9 seconds before the damage instead of the 15+ and then casting the remaining 1-3 spirit shells during the damage.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
12/23/2012 12:57 AMPosted by Sotanaht
It's the same thing, if removing mastery has 0 effect in that situation it can only be because mastery has 0 effect to start with.

the only reason removing the mastery has little effect is becuase of your high mastery boost to your agis, otherwise the drop to spirit shell would be more. Even if i dont cap, which im not going to really get into that debate it is still only a 11.4% reduced spirit shell because of the amount of mastery affecting your agis to begin with. if you remove the mastery in favour of crit you will be nerfing your spirit shell further yourself. adding crit into the mix the numbers will be very close i dont doubt, but i expect mastery to top out still as a higher mastery stats scales better with a lower crit stat than a higher crit to lower mastery does in terms of absorbs. crit will increase your direct PoH output but alot of the time that will only lead to overhealing.
Edited by Psudo on 12/23/2012 1:03 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
12/23/2012 01:01 AMPosted by Psudo
. if you remove the mastery in favour of crit you will be nerfing your spirit shell further yourself.


No. for spirit shell alone post-nerf crit will do more per-point. That's really the core of the issue. Haste will also do more per-point if your main concern is overhealing, the choice between haste and crit coming down to overhealing/unreliability VS mana efficiency, with the per-point edge going to haste.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/23/2012 1:18 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
Spirit shell is 28.5, divine aegis is 26.2, PWS is 7.4, and all other healing combined is 37.7%. I have 54.45% mastery with raid buffs. Mastery currently accounts for 10.0% from Spirit Shell, 9.2%from Divine Aegis, 2.6% from PWS.

I don't actually need to go any further, I've pretty much proved mastery is already a fairly bad stat. it's 21.8% of my total healing coming from 54.45% mastery. Post Patch I would only getting 3.9% from Spirit shell mastery, dropping it to 16.5% of my healing (after adjusting for the 3.3% loss in total healing).


How are you even getting these numbers though? As in, how are you isolating the individual numbers contributed from Mastery and Crit. There is an interplay between Crit and Mastery, so could you kindly elaborate as to how you're obtaining those numbers? Why are you also not accounting for only the numbers provided by gear?

Fact of the matter, I have no idea how to compute the individual contribution from Crit or Mastery without the assuming the other has zero contribution. This is why I'm still asking for an actual mathematical breakdown. Any Math geniuses out there?
Edited by Ceddya on 12/23/2012 1:33 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
As long as crit remains constant it doesn't need to be worked on. Basically that's the amount of my total healing coming from each of those spells that I would lose if my mastery were to suddenly become 0, all other things remaining equal. That's not accounting for the potential change in overhealing, fortunately that shouldn't be a big issue for absorbs.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/23/2012 1:50 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
As long as crit remains constant it doesn't need to be worked on. Basically that's the amount of my total healing coming from each of those spells that I would lose if my mastery were to suddenly become 0, all other things remaining equal. That's not accounting for the potential change in overhealing, fortunately that shouldn't be a big issue for absorbs.


That's the thing though, if you were to do the same thing for Crit, you'd end up with two numbers greater than the sum of their parts.
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
just a current breakdown of a 5.1 parse with extremely high agis and spirit shell healing
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kx360k51adgsnn2p/details/22/?s=8317&e=8744
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kx360k51adgsnn2p/sum/healingDone/?s=8317&e=8744#Psudo

(E) = Effective
Healing done - Hits - Avg - Total - Overheal - (E) heals
Spirit Shell 13381308 24.5 % 114 117379.9 13381308 - 12.3 % 11735407.116
Devine Agis 12863564 23.6 % 366 35146.3 12863564 - 12.8 % 11217027.808
Now without changing any stats around i will apply the 5.2 changes

Spirit Shell 13381308 - 11.4% = 11855838.888 - 12.3% overheal = 10397570.705 (E) Heals
1337836.4112 lower. this is assuming the same overheals which with on avg every raid member taking 26347.4829976 (E) damage per second ( the massive crush damage at the end has been removed as its a result of a enrage and isnt healable/shouldnt be included/at the extreme end of the fight), granted this includes crush but crush is only on avg 10-11% of damage taken total.

Now add to this the bonus agis is getting from boost 30-50% (12863564 x 100 / 30 x.5)
Healing done
Devine Agis 21439273.3333 - 12.8% overheal = (E) Healing 18695046.3466
7478018.5386 Increased Healing - 1337836.4112 Spirit shell decreased healing =
6140182.1274 Increased output over the fight which over a 427 second fight is a 14379.8176286 hps increase 5.2 will bring on a PoH/Spirit Shell Spam fight.
As i said i havent done the exact maths for crit yet, but since with the current patch design we are recieveing a buff from mastery for our overall thruput i have doubts crit at the cost of mastery will pan out. since the avg agis that gets destroyed is only 34k, the massive boost to agis is unlikely to lead to more overhealing than it was in 5.1 as it caps at 174.9k
Edited by Psudo on 12/23/2012 2:32 AM PST
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90 Goblin Priest
15415
as is PoH's direct heal which is the part affected by raising crit has a 39.1% overheal rate in relation to agis 12.8% more crit will just bring this overheal higher.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/22/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Ceddya
I agree that there are certainly issues with how well Mastery is scaling with SS right now and it's overvaluing Mastery. I kind of like the supposed new SS/Mastery interaction as it serves to tone down SS slightly whilst preventing it from scaling far too well. I just can't think of any other way to do this without completely overhauling our Mastery.


The mastery doesn't need completely overhauled. It just needs to scale less. Accomplishing this is as simple as changing how much of a percentage bonus each mastery "point" provides to shield discipline. It's 2.5% per mastery point right now. It could be reduced from this value such that all absorbs are toned down, not just SS.

You can already make DA on PoH equal to 80%+ of the heal amount in current gear. This is honestly a bit too much. My concern is it will only get worse as new tiers are released.

For the sake of argument, let's say you have the following stat values....

Mastery: 55%
Critical Strike: 15%
PoH Average Base Heal: 30,000 healing per target

Here is what you end up with these values with live values and 5.2 values (assuming the speculation about the SS change in 5.2 is correct).

Live Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 23,250 DA, SS = 69,517 absorption
5.2 Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 23,250 DA, SS = 61237.5 absorption

Say you keep SS the same and nerf discipline shield mastery so it provides a 1.25% increase per point of mastery instead of a 2.5% increase per point of mastery. Now your 55% mastery bonus is a 37.5% mastery bonus. If we use the SS formula from live (with 60% of the DA modifier) here is what you get...

Live Values: PoH = 30,000 healing + 20,625 DA, SS = 61,668.75 absorption

By changing mastery you're toning down DA and SS with the same change. Furthermore, it will stop the SS scaling problem and the DA scaling problem with the same change. If you push your mastery bonus up to 40% from 37.5% from gearing you end up with this...

PoH = 30,000 healing + 21,000 DA, SS = 62,790 absorption

Both abilities get a sizeable buff but it takes 1200 mastery points to go from the 37.5% bonus to a 40% bonus if each mastery point provides a 1.25% increase.

The other area of concern is they are pushing themselves into a corner with DA if the SS change goes through. What do I mean by this? Well, how do you reduce DA after putting in the 5.2 change? You could lower DA by itself, lower mastery scaling as described above or nerf PoH directly.

Let's say you drop DA from 50% to 40% using 55% mastery, 15% critical strike and a 30k PoH base heal.... Here is what you get (with the speculated 5.2 change)...

PoH = 30,000 healing, 18,600 DA
SS = 55,890 absorption.

In this case DA takes a significant nerf but continues to scale rapidly with more mastery. SS also takes a second nerf. I think this route will be counter-productive because to scale back DA you have further nerf SS.

Let's say you throw in a mastery scaling reduction and drop it from 2.5% per mastery point to 1.5% per mastery point. Now you have 41% mastery instead of 55% mastery. So with the same critical strike and PoH heal values you get this...

PoH = 30,000 healing, 21,150 DA
SS = 58,822.5 absorption

This is a little bit better because it solves DA scaling better while nerfing both abilities less. It's still piling two nerfs on top of SS though.

I think it's safe to say directly nerfing PoH is out, short of splitting Holy PoH from Discipline PoH somehow, because it also nerfs Holy.

In a nutshell nerfing shield mastery seems to be a better concept. The only drawback is PW:S also takes a hit from scaling back mastery. If this becomes a huge issue it's a simple matter of increasing the SP coefficient on PW:S to compensate. The only reason I could think to nerf SS by itself is they believe DA contribution is fine as it stands. I'd have to disagree given the disparity between how much absorbs over-heal compared to actual heals.
Edited by Volios on 12/23/2012 3:16 AM PST
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