Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

90 Human Priest
16625
Well the thing is, spirit shell will technically still scale with mastery (if we're guessing correctly at the new formula), just not as fast as it did before.

Personally I think the discrepancy between pve scaling and pvp scaling is from the guaranteed aegis from prayer of healing. I understand the single target heals scaling out of control, but the aegis guarantee was put on PoH to give discs a gameplay where they could do bubbles on an aoe scale. With the introduction of spirit shell, I don't know why we got to keep it. But as tweeted, disc is pretty much fail without divine aegis for any aoe. We could still be way off on the proposed changes. Spirit shell might be getting the treatment where it has a change to crit, which would fully secure crit as the win stat to stack, simply because it does more healing per mana than mastery.

But I'm pretty certain we have the right formula, so I'll probably be sticking with the above for secondaries. I fully expect a mass exodus from mastery to haste for everyone doing 25s

Edit: as mentioned above, go a little over 4717 haste to hit the spirit shell softcap. If you can do that in your gear, you probably are going to be hitting the cap on players in 3 PoH casts, so that softcap isn't that great for your 10 man, if you choose to do that.
Edited by Twistedmind on 12/23/2012 10:29 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
But you seem to think that absorbs are worth more because overhealing. They aren't. This isn't an argument I can even make here, it's been done to death. Absorbs do NOT need nerfing just because they are absorbs and our mastery is NOT automatically too strong because it buffs our absorbs.


The only claim I made was that SS isn't the only ability on a Discipline Priest that is over the top right now. Discipline isn't leaving other healers in the dust right now only because of SS. DA is also too powerful, on PoH in particular. If you want to interpret that as me saying absorbs are magically superior to healing or mastery is too strong because it buffs absorbs feel free to do so.

As I said, there are a few viable ways to tone down both abilities. The potential 5.2 change to SS is going to make it impossible to lower DA contribution without further nerfing SS. It's a bad idea unless nerfing SS further is necessary, and I don't believe it is, or DA is currently fine as it stands, and I don't believe it is.
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90 Human Priest
11345
The SS nerf is barely going to be noticeable for me (10man) as I will still be capping shells on both groups in 6 total casts with archangel.

The rapture change is a buff for me (no resto shaman; only one spirit proc trinket which I may even end up swapping out for something else post-5.2).

The solace change is a wash or a slight buff (I get 3 holy fires per minute on most fights as is, and can definitely get more if I'm focusing on it instead of treating it as something to hit that is worse than offensive penance).

Thanks for the buffs blizzard!
Edited by Amabella on 12/24/2012 12:26 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
7315
The SS nerf is barely going to be noticeable for me (10man) as I will still be capping shells on both groups in 6 total casts with archangel.

The rapture change is a buff for me (no resto shaman; only one spirit proc trinket which I may even end up swapping out for something else post-5.2).

The solace change is a wash or a slight buff (I get 3 holy fires per minute on most fights as is, and can definitely get more if I'm focusing on it instead of treating it as something to hit that is worse than offensive penance).

Thanks for the buffs blizzard!


I'm particularly interested in the rapture change...you mentioned that you may be switching out a spirit proc trinket. May I ask why that is? Sorry, I must have missed an earlier post.
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90 Troll Priest
10205
Rature as of right now work with spirit proc and mana spring totem. So by making sure your rapture is triggered when you're spirit is boosted you get more mana back. If you get it at the same time as mana spring totem I get upward of 80K.

I think it's a neat mechanic since it place synergy between different stuff and make the rapture proc more lenient since it's okay to wait a few second before PW:S since you can match it with a trinket. As of 5.2 I'll need to find an addon to trac rapture, PITA.
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90 Human Priest
11345
I'm particularly interested in the rapture change...you mentioned that you may be switching out a spirit proc trinket. May I ask why that is? Sorry, I must have missed an earlier post.


If rapture no longer gives extra mana from procced spirit it will be more effective to get as much passive spirit as possible and have all of your procs be for non-spirit stats. I'm already making some trades of spirit for throughput (flask, food, chest enchant, tailoring cloak enchant, getting all socket bonuses), and the tradeoff of a trinket that procs spirit will probably be similar, although I haven't done the math yet.

It's extremely likely that trinkets with passive spirit (or that can be reforged to spirit) will become by far the best trinkets for disc post-5.2. Everyone get your Qin-xi's now!
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90 Human Priest
7315
Ah okay, thanks for the information. I have been tracking rapture using an addon but since I have only run LFR so far, I could not depend on knowing when a Shaman (if there is one) in the group will be dropping tide. I was, however able to time my Relic sometimes.

Until I find something better, I will most likely have to use my SP proc items.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.

Not sure if I've seen any mention yet, but the italicized part is a nerf. Currently Spirit Shell is improperly benefiting from Critical Strike. If one of the five hits of PoH is a crit under SS, all five of them result in a double spirit shell, this fix is changing that to not happen anymore. Crit will be worse in the next patch than it is currently.
Edited by Qùess on 12/26/2012 10:46 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9925
All wonderful information, I'm very interested in seeing your charts Twisted.

The thing I don't like in all of this is the fact that Spirit Shell is only being talked about in context of Prayer of Healing. For anything else, this is a more severe nerf than can possibly be justified.

I understand very well there's a good reason for that- PoH is our #1 most efficient cast when hitting 5 people and not overhealing, and with Spirit Shell, it's unlikely to ever overheal. That reason itself disturbs me. We should have more versatility than that. Else why bother even having the spell function as it does? If that's the intent, just make a Prayer of Healing copy that absorbs instead of heals and modify it separately for balance than create a counterintuitive function of mastery.
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90 Human Priest
7315
Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.

Not sure if I've seen any mention yet, but the italicized part is a nerf. Currently Spirit Shell is improperly benefiting from Critical Strike. If one of the five hits of PoH is a crit under SS, all five of them result in a double spirit shell, this fix is changing that to not happen anymore. Crit will be worse in the next patch than it is currently.


Interesting, many others have stated the exact opposite, that Crit is becoming more valued and Mastery less.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
12/26/2012 04:01 PMPosted by Largemarge
Interesting, many others have stated the exact opposite, that Crit is becoming more valued and Mastery less.


Both are going to be worse relatively in 5.2. I'm interested to see the viability of Haste, if our mana continues to be as luxurious at it has been, it will definitely be something to consider.

I'll leave the theorycrafting to people like Twisted, but I just figured I'd throw the Critical Strike SS change out there. Can anyone else reproduce this? I can but I have no way to fraps it. It will definitely change the value of Crit, though it's not included currently in its weight as a stat.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Spirit Shell no longer benefits from Mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of Divine Aegis and critical effect chance.

Not sure if I've seen any mention yet, but the italicized part is a nerf. Currently Spirit Shell is improperly benefiting from Critical Strike. If one of the five hits of PoH is a crit under SS, all five of them result in a double spirit shell, this fix is changing that to not happen anymore. Crit will be worse in the next patch than it is currently.


That's not how Crit works with spirit shell.

Crit is flat scaling on Spirit shell. There is no chance, 1% crit makes spirit shell 1% larger with zero variation at all times. I do not know whether post patch spirit shell will continue with the current crit model or switch to the standard 1% chance to double the size, but either way crit will be stronger than mastery, and it's actual value (ignoring preference regarding randomness) will remain exactly the same as it is now.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
I know how it's supposed to be, but through the power of observation, that's not true.

Spirit Shell (without Inner Focus) will occasionally crit. I've experienced it multiple times where I cast ONE PoH and it leaves a 170k+ shell on all 5 people, where ordinarily it would've been 85k per person. Nothing else can be causing this but crit.
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
12/26/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Qùess
Not sure if I've seen any mention yet, but the italicized part is a nerf. Currently Spirit Shell is improperly benefiting from Critical Strike. If one of the five hits of PoH is a crit under SS, all five of them result in a double spirit shell, this fix is changing that to not happen anymore. Crit will be worse in the next patch than it is currently.


Are you sure? I was under the impression SS couldn't crit at all. I thought this was why it had critical strike automatically factored into the heal to begin with. If it can crit it's certainly bugged. I can't say I've ever actually checked though.

12/26/2012 04:01 PMPosted by Largemarge
Interesting, many others have stated the exact opposite, that Crit is becoming more valued and Mastery less.


Well, crit shouldn't really improve or get worse for SS. In it's current incarnation it's supposed to factor your critical strike chance into the heal by default. In other words, with 15% critical strike you get a flat 15% bonus on it instead of having a 15% chance for it to land a critical strike. I see no reason for them to change this and the suspicion is it will remain the same in 5.2.

What is changing is mastery is going to be significantly less powerful on SS because, again, the suspicion is your mastery bonus will only apply to the DA modifier on the spell and not both the DA and the heal. At least this is how "will no longer benefit from mastery, and now properly includes the benefits of divine aegis" is being interpreted. If the DA modifier doesn't even benefit from mastery it's going to be an even larger nerf.

The end result is critical strike will be the "best" stat for SS because mastery will be so much weaker for it. This doesn't technically mean critical strike is getting better on SS.

The thing I don't like in all of this is the fact that Spirit Shell is only being talked about in context of Prayer of Healing. For anything else, this is a more severe nerf than can possibly be justified.


This is because it's more commonly used for mass AoE absorption purposes. There are situations where it makes sense to use it for single-target healing purposes but it's usually only when multiple tanks are involved and/or something is hitting really hard. I suppose you could use it as a single-target option for efficiency purposes too (aka, cap SS on a tank with a SS GH or two then spam SS heal into them).

You did make a good point though. I believe SS is going to take a bigger hit on single-target heals if the formula below is correct....

Non SS PoH = Average Heal * (1 + (0.5 * (1 + Mastery %) * Critical %)) * (1 + Critical %)

The math geniuses can feel free to point out if that is right or I'm completely retarded (posted something else somewhere and I'm pretty sure it wasn't even close to right).
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
12/26/2012 05:14 PMPosted by Volios
If it can crit it's certainly bugged. I can't say I've ever actually checked though.


After making the post I went and tried it in LFR Terrace. I got it to happen 3 times out of about 20 casts. Every other time my SS was 85k, those 3 times they were 170k after a single cast of PoH. I can't think of any other explanation other than it crit, though it doesn't correlate with my crit chance at all. I don't use IF during SS either.
Edited by Qùess on 12/26/2012 5:22 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
I know how it's supposed to be, but through the power of observation, that's not true.

Spirit Shell (without Inner Focus) will occasionally crit. I've experienced it multiple times where I cast ONE PoH and it leaves a 170k+ shell on all 5 people, where ordinarily it would've been 85k per person. Nothing else can be causing this but crit.


How about a 100% increase to crit chance, which therefor increases spirit shells power by 100%? that's what inner focus does. There was also a bug the first day they fixed inner focus to work at all with spirit shell, where once procced it would continue to work the entire duration.

Actually it's better than just a crit, because with your base crit chance you end up with crit increasing it by about 115% with IF instead of the 103% you would get with meta.
Edited by Sotanaht on 12/26/2012 5:25 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
But I'm not using Inner Focus during SS, so...
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90 Human Priest
11345
If you use inner focus on PoH before using spirit shell, the first PoH cast under shell will still be double size even though inner focus is no longer active.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7430
12/26/2012 05:32 PMPosted by Amabella
If you use inner focus on PoH before using spirit shell, the first PoH cast under shell will still be double size even though inner focus is no longer active.


Thanks, I'm 99% sure this is what's happening as I often use IF and cast a heal before SS. So this doesn't impact Crits value at all.
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90 Human Priest
16625
Mk, as promised, here are my findings for how mastery is going to play out next patch. It's a monster post, so I'm doing it in 2 posts. First are some considerations before looking at the raw data. Second is raw data.

So these posts assume that crit will continue to multiply on the spirit shell value at the percentage of your crit value. If we are misinterpreting the wording of the intended change and spirit shell will start having a chance to crit, you are going to want to stack as much haste as you can. In a theoretical rotation where spirit shell has a chance to crit, both mastery and crit are so devalued that int and haste is much better by a wide enough margin to justify stacking haste/int, regardless of your current spirit level.

Now, if the formula will continue to multiply crit over the average value, and this change is simply taking the mastery multiplier and applying it to the Divine Aegis value, and the Divine Aegis value will correctly use 50% instead of 30% [ Average Heal * (1 + Crit %) * (1 + ((1 + Mastery %) * 0.50)) ], then I've gathered up some interesting data.

I've made a spells cast breakdown sheet and used both real data from my personal logs within an encounter and theoretical spell breakdowns. I thought both Garalon and Blade Lord Tay'yak are great fights for demonstrating damage patterns where maximum hps is actually relevant for completing the encounter. These two fights also show the workings of our spells in terms of both sustained hps and burst healing.
I also looked at the real examples of will of the emperor, heroic stone guardians, and grand empress shek'zeer to see the frequency of my pw:s casting to accurately model a theoretical single target breakdown.

Some things about this data:

1.) This is my spell choice selection for these encounters. I do cutting edge 10 man content and use power word: shield much more frequently than most.

2.) Take the stat weights with grains of salt. For one, this doesn't accurately model borrowed time procs very well. If you're good at making the most of each borrowed time, this will throw more weight at grace stacking spells, the number of PoH/Gheals per minute, and it will shift the value of mastery a bit higher and haste a bit lower than my conclusions.

3.) The modeling of evangelism, grace, and archangel are not really included in these stat weights. Evangelism increases the value of atonement heals as well as prolonging time until oom (read you need less spirit). Grace will give an increased value to single target heals, as well as giving more of a % bonus towards penance, which ultimately means haste should have a bigger stat weight. Same theory for archangel, but archangel can make mastery have a much bigger value depending on how and when you use it per encounter. If you use archangel proactively, mastery should have a bigger value. If you use it for sustained hps, it really gives leverage to haste stacking.

4.) Inner focus devalues crit. If we have enough mana to spot heal with gheal (we will next patch), then the listed values for crit are lower, and will be at a lower stat weight depending on how many gheals you use per minute. This also encourages haste to be much better, and in some cases (like with gemming) arguably better than int. On a point per point value, each point of haste will devalue each point of crit (instead of increasing the value for both in a multiplicative fashion like other healing classes).

5.) Haste is bizarre because you can only stack as much haste as needed without going oom (assuming the rule of always be casting). Also, as Volios said in another thread, too much haste for the amount of incoming damage isn't good for the raid team or yourself for the practical completion of an encounter. These calculations were made without really knowing what the hard "healer gear check" encounters are in 5.2.

So at first glance when you're seeing how great haste looks, just know that these weights ultimately depend on both your personal play style, and the encounter demands (which we don't know yet).
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