Topic Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/7/13 5:06 PM (PST)
The crit meta effect is nowhere to be found in my calcs. Something so simple, overlooked. Accounting for the meta explains the discrepancy with my PoH values and Spirit Shell.
Also, it appears that the missing coefficient is the modified mastery value under crit being added to crit scaling modifier. I was looking at it thinking it was some multiplied coefficient, when I should have been looking at it as additive. Thank you helping me out.
As per request, I reforged everything I could away from mastery without touching crit (for consistency). My toon's new values:
int (including mysticism): 16,731
spellpower (no inner fire): 24,269
flash heal average value from tooltip: 56,895
prayer of healing average value from tooltip: 29,025
flash heal spirit shell tooltip value: 71,391
prayer of healing spirit shell tooltip value: 54,181
Also, I have the same sort of report after stripping down completely nakid except for my helm. I'm leaving it equipped to illustrate the crit meta effect. Here are those numbers:
int (including mysticism): 1522
spellpower (no inner fire): 1512
crit (the helm has 232 crit rating): 2.23%
flash heal average value from tooltip: 19,528
prayer of healing average value from tooltip: 9,955
flash heal spirit shell tooltip value: 20,502
prayer of healing spirit shell tooltip value: 16,292
If you run them through with your listed formula they should match. Also, you are correct in saying that the only way of making our single target heals scale with mastery during spirit shell is by what divine aegis would have been. Sort of a weird way for it to work, but w/e.
Edited by Amabella on 1/7/13 5:30 PM (PST)
I guess I should mention that the mastery breakeven point for 5.2 spirit shell to be better than 5.1 spirit shell for PoH is 25% (1200 mastery rating) not 40% (as listed in the original post of this thread). It's a nerf in basically any situation unless you have both very low mastery and no mastery buff in your raid.
Also it appears that the implication of the single target spirit shell formula is that while mastery is a bit worse than crit for 5.2 PoH shells, it's going to be absolutely horrendous for single target shells. This leaves mastery as ... a spell for PW:S and for when you are spending the entire fight spamming PoH overheals for aegis. Might be viable in some 25man situations (heroic empress style fights), but I expect the math will suggest that all 10man priests drop as much mastery as possible.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/7/13 5:44 PM (PST)
I'll edit that. Somewhere out there I corrected myself with the 25%, I just hadn't updated it.
Some people will drop mastery completely, but I'm still going to hang onto it. The stat weights I had listed a page back is still close to accurate as far as the practical encounter weights are concerned. This is because those fights didn't actually make use of single target heals during spirit shell. I'm still going with my original plan
4717 haste for the holy and spirit shell softcaps
Edit the mastery and crit to whatever per fight, I'm still siding with mastery. This is where preference comes in.
My personal thoughts/reflections:
Absolutely not! If anything it should be lower damage on all offensive spells and increase the healing by a comparable percentage. Atonement healing is awesome for casual play. I don't have time to run 25M raids any more so all I run is LFR/10 mans and I can pretty much just spam holy fire/penance/smite all day pulling 30-40K dps and 50-70K hps. The added dps makes up for the baddies in my group but the healing is on-par with other healers, and doesn't need a change.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/11/13 8:54 AM (PST)
The set bonuses for tier 15 were datamined over at mmo-champ:
I need to see these bonuses in action before I can say anything mathematical about them. But my initial impressions are:
- The shadow 2 piece is basically making it so you don't have hang onto the previous tier-14 4 piece
- The shadow 4 piece is going to be really minor if you consider the hard cap on the number of shadowy apparitions you can have. You also are going to want to stand as close to your target as possible as to not waste an apparation proc, which is dangerous in pve.
- This also devalues crit as a stat for shadow, which ultimately makes gearing for tier 16 weird. Last time I weighted shadow, crit was better than mastery, but not by a wide margin like it is for other classes. This slight tweak will most likely put us as int>sp>hit to cap>haste>mastery>crit
- For healing the 2 piece is better for holy for 2 reasons: 1.) The ability to talent divine insight means all charges of PoM can be spent. 2.) PoM doesn't bounce as easily in disc because it can get stuck on a shielded target, meaning you'll be casting it again before it uses all charges
- The 2 piece is worded with trickery. Either PoM as a spell is just getting a flat 10% boost, or each bounce gains an additional 10% per bounce, culminating in a 50% boost on the last bounce (or 40% if you're glyphed PoM). I won't know for sure until we're able to play with it on the ptr.
- The healing 4 piece can be silly OP when the raid is stacked up, but you have to cast penance/coh, both of which are theoretical hps losses during max hps when stacked. This also devalues the glyph of CoH, which I consider a very important decision because it turns CoH into more hps than PoH (at the expense of your mana).
- If the apparitions move with the same ai as the shadow version, it could go into mostly overhealing. They would also be subject to the same buggy behavior as their shadow versions, and I won't know for sure if offensive penance will proc them.
- The 4 piece healer set might be better for disc because of archangel and train of thought (smite version). I don't know how the apparitions will be affected by spellpower gains like inner fire, but they will most likely be affected by percent healing gains. I suspect chakra might not function with them, but archangel will. And with more smites, we can proc this more often as disc (also forcing us into heavy atonement/aa play for maximizing the bonus).
- The 4 piece healer set might force holy to sit in sanctuary because of the reduced CoH cd, which is already a current problem (arguably) that would only be further exacerbated.
I'm not all doom and gloom. As the team demonstrated in the MoP release, someone in the technical art design team plays a priest because both halo and cascade have the best animations. This same employee might make awesome looking apparitions.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/13/13 5:25 PM (PST)
I've gotten some confirmations. Here are some GC quotes:
This means that glyphing PoM is still an overall hps loss, assuming the calculation is 160%->110%->121%->133%. But this new set bonus with the PoM glyph bumps the hpm and hps enough so that glyphing it and using it on cd is much more viable. If you are holy and using Divine Insight, I would leave it unglyphed. Disc on the other hand is losing one of those "mandatory" glyphs with the change to holy fire.
The simplest method of handling this is to just give it the tier 14 4-piece treatment, so expect a similar change.
This looks to be a fun thing to math out. I'm unwilling to do it personally, but there is a theoretical distance that apparitions can travel when multi-dotting as to not waste apparition procs (for the 5 apparition cap), which is going to be interesting because multi-dotting different targets usually has them at differing distances and positions away from your body. Also note that this theoretical distance scales negatively with your haste because it makes your dots tick faster. Double checking the validity of never reaching the 10 apparition cap might also be a fun thing to look at. I have yet to confirm whether or not this additional apparition proc is on a different spell id (meaning has no interaction with the procs from sw:pain crits).
- The Golden Apparition from the Healing 4pc heals the lowest % health friendly target within 40yd. Note that it has no visual yet, but will not work like Shadowy Apparitions. It is a simple missile, not a summoned unit.
Purge, we'll take that under advisement and consider a new iteration.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/17/13 10:57 PM (PST)
So lots of threads are popping up about this.
For Rapture, the PW:S cost is currently 9150 mana and the Rapture passive tooltilp say 50% reduction in PW:S cost on the PTR realm at the time of this posting. Also, Rapture returns 100% of your spirit instead of the 150%. This doesn't agree with the above GC quote. Maybe it will go to the intended 25% in a later build. This would make sense because the changes listed on the ptr notes at: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/8226552 actually haven't gone through yet all the way, or at least the glyphs haven't been changed over.
If PW:S only had a 25% reduction, the break even point for returning mana from rapture would be at 9150 spirit for a 13,725 mana cost (inner will would be 7777.5 spirit for a 11666.25 cost).
Also, Divine Aegis isn't guaranteed anymore on Prayer of Healing, but it does seem to be guaranteed on Spirit Shell still, and at the 50% aegis coefficient: spirit shell = ((0.5*(1+mastery%)+1)*(1+crit%)*(tooltip value)
Spirit Shell is still affected by the 3% crit meta gem effect.
So what you should be thinking:
- The spam PoH for a rolling Divine Aegis playstyle is dead
- Using Inner Focus will be more strategic because it's the only guaranteed divine aegis we have
- Train of thought for gheals just got a little stronger for using more preemptive aegis thanks to its interaction with Train of Thought.
- With the reduced mana cost to PW:S and the new glyph of weakened soul, using our Strength of Soul passive just got a buff, and using the Divine Insight talent also got a buff.
Proccing Rapture closer to cooldown will be easier with this new Weakened Soul glyph.
- Prayer of Mending shouldn't get stuck on absorbed targets as much as it used to now that Aegis won't be guaranteed from PoH. The new 2 piece tier will also further boost this spell, which makes it an interesting decision to cast it on cooldown or to wait until the charges are spent.
- If you weren't casting penance on cooldown before, god help you start doing it now.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/17/13 11:36 PM (PST)
Another GC quote:
While we're on the subject of PoH, though:
This is actually pretty telling of the goals for next tier. It means that each class has retained a flavor, and that they're eyeballing aoe healing for all and seeing what they can change in terms of a structure like our current single target heal structure has.
And don't lose your head about the changes, there is a lot of trial and error going on.
^Some more quotes from the dev.
I was evaluating the changes to Disc aoe without PoH aegis. It kind of took me back to when I didn't have enough mana do anything, at the start of this expansion. My first venture into msv had me trying to heal an incredibly demanding aoe encounter, and I didn't have enough mana in a theoretical vacuum to heal for more than 80 seconds. PoH was extremely rewarding to cast on 5 people perfectly, and using it for the aoe portion, not the absorb felt like the right playstyle.
One of the tactics I was using was to closely eyeball my other healers and their aoe spells, making sure I wasn't overhealing or sniping them. I also played at disc's innate strength, even at low mana, to babysit tanks while hectic things were happening. It wasn't doubling the (e)hps in an encounter, but it was effective at finishing the fights.
After looking over the changes, I can see that disc definitely less aoe than holy. Spirit shell has the utility of being preemptive, but a holy priest can bring a little bit more of just raw power. But holy is still lacking in the single target heals department. The healing per mana of theoretical serendipity play with from darkness comes light (in serenity chakra, trying to fit ffg in after hw:serenity) just doesn't come close to the healing per mana done by disc playing with strength of soul or divine insight, or archangel weaving. And shields are ace for minimizing overheal, and stability with other co-healers.
So I guess what I'm getting at is play at disc strengths. Cheesing absorb mechanics and stopping burst are the cooldown-related strengths, but doing high dps and high single target healing are also things the spec does really well in between the bursts. It's kind of reverse logic from playing a holy priest. You can sit in serenity and do single target healing. You can also spam renew for predictable burst, but you just don't actually do these things often in a practical raid setting. More than likely, you're in sanctuary chakra, and you're trying to blink back lost health as fast as possible with circle of healing or poh. It's not like you're completely unable, you're just better off playing your strengths.
Though I personally do not like being specialized, otherwise I'd play 25s. I've been lobbying since the start of dragon soul for a shorter chakra cd (after they took those talents out). And raid leaders don't want to hear if disc can theoretically do okay aoe, or some justification of how this nerf really affected disc; they just want to know the short and sweet, which is now: disc is better off doing single target. I'm not saying declare yourself to the world as a single target healer, or even that my opinion is gospel. But I am saying I'll be doing much more single target healing on the ptr than I am on live.
Next on my list of desired changes: the removal of the mana reduction portion of evangelism.
Edited by Twistedmind on 1/21/13 4:56 AM (PST)
Also, some food for thought:
If we're going holy more next patch, and the new pvp set reduced the chakra cd. Would it be optimal to carry around 4 pieces for fights that encourage chakra dancing? It isn't unheard of to cheese MoP encounters with the pvp set bonuses (looking at you paladins).
A quick comparison of the highest mooncloth set available to the heroic pve tier:
The loss of int is big, but the difference between these is actually a little less if you subtract one piece of gear from the comparison (because you'd only swap out 4 pieces of pve gear for pvp gear, not 5). And the difference in stats will usually mean less of an impact if current gear trends and scaling are similar to previous expansions. The bigger your stats get, the less of a trade off it becomes to sacrifice raw stats for lower ilevel gear.
What I'm thinking next tier is if I gear up now, I probably won't be spending my valor on the new gear in 5.2, and they're taking out the gear upgrade npc. It might not be a bad idea to dump valor into conquest points until I have the 4 piece, just in case. And if you're serious about progression, you will most likely be playing holy more than you do now.
Holy Fire was recently changed to be an instant cast, so the new pw:solace makes it just mana friendly. Shadow damage is being tuned, but most of the buffs and nerfs it's been receiving (fade is only a hand of freedom like effect, devouring plague keeps changing, their healing spells are being nerfed, etc.) have been for pvp purposes. The actual damage the spec will be able to provide in pve is getting tuned soon*. For disc/holy pvp, the feedback on the new 4 piece for holy is largely negative. But the change to spirit shell being undispellable and atonement spells not being affected by resilience were huge buffs on top of already huge passive survivability buffs, so the disc spec is actually looking a little op for pvp. But the mana consumption of spells in pvp is still high-ish for disc, and to some degree target switching is a thorn. Still, the new glyphs, new passives, and new gameplay has a lot of happy discs on the ptr.
I've been testing out the changes to pve discipline on the ptr in the available 10 mans if I'm around and the 25 man lfr's. From a hps standpoint, everyone is getting obliterated by paladins in both modes. But the spread of healing breakdowns is rarely greater than 10% (subject to the players' skill). Compare that to the later heroic modes in the current live version where disc spread is almost 50%, the game is looking balanced once again. I've noticed that my mana is typically better than most of the healers I'm "competing" against. I suppose if I suddenly got more aggressive with my high mana cost healing spells I could cheese my way higher on the hps charts, but I'm fine with being second or third (in 25 mans; I'm usually first on the 10s).
There is no question that I'm gearing to 16.6% haste or bust. And I want to dispel the myth that is starting to perpetuate that crit as a secondary is more hps than haste. This is simply not the case, and never has been. The reason most disc priests are divided on crit or haste is because they increase hps without changing mana consumption. Having more haste means 'theoretically' eating more mana if you're always casting. But even that argument has a lot of holes and paramaters to examine like: what is the window of time I have to heal x amount of damage? what spells am I using to heal? what is the base cast time of these heals and what is my latency?
As much fun as crit looks (simply by being better next patch because the mastery weight is changing), I'm still not going out of my way to gear for it. I wouldn't mind getting gear that is base crit and spirit (see pretty much everything you can buy with valor), but I'm not going to gem or reforge for it. This is more a choice being made by my playstyle and more than the 'what do the sims say'? So Int>Spirit>Haste to 16.6%>mastery for me for both specs holy and disc.
Speaking of those sims, what are mine saying? This is subject to change as blizz keeps changing their minds, but what I'm showing currently is that using the new strength of soul play (with the glyph of weakened soul and heal as a filler between pw:s) is about 58698.78 hps. A typical evangelism rotation with penance>hfire>smite is about 74797.17 hps. Using from darkness comes light and pouring the flash heal procs into cooling down weakened soul (for strength of soul) is 75550.02 hps.
Divine Insight play with using heal instead of atonement is 73601.6 hps, and Divine Insight play while also using atonement spells and archangel is 93620.16 hps. Using gheals as filler for using more inner focus from the gheal portion of train of thought and combining that with strength of soul play is 108157.06 hps. So those are just some rough hps numbers to think about when tank healing. Any theoretical aoe healing is going to want to use evangelism building spells and archangel.
I'm putting up vids of me on the ptr when I get the time at:
Edited by Zolvolt on 2/13/13 2:21 AM (PST)
Thanks for the info TM.
I'm curious though, seeing as currently 10m disc priests and 25m disc priests go with different stat weights...
*currently, a lot of 10m disc priests go into haste or crit where a 25m goes straight mastery (or straight haste if they want to parse high)*
So my question is will 25m disc priest care to do anything different from the 10m disc priests next patch? Or is it a general rule to go haste then mastery then crit.
And one other question I have, in 5.2 how much mastery is too much after hitting 16.6% haste? Is it possible to have too much as long as your haste cap is met?
4717 haste for the holy and spirit shell softcaps
Is this still something I will want to follow?
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/13/13 7:09 AM (PST)
My advice for 25s is either stack loads of spirit/haste or get your hands on all the crit gear you can. The aoe heals I was trying to put out in lfr is getting sniped really easily, especially if there is a holy paladin in the group. The most effective healing I'm putting out with aoe heals is mashing prayer of mending, offensive penance, or cascade. With the loss of throughput from extra aegis padding and spirit shell no longer being a pure throughput cooldown, hitting 5 stacks of evangelism and hitting archangel off cooldown is happening to me more. Most of my filler is spent smiting. The "rumored pw:s spam for aoe" isn't viable.
For 10 mans, I currently in patch 5.1 stack mastery depending on the fight (just like the 25 mans), so not everyone is putting haste/crit on their gear, but that's a playstyle choice. For next patch, it's going to depend on what you're doing with your role. The smart heals and quick cast times of evangelism are probably the strongest thing disc brings to fights after the utility from spirit shell, barrier, and pw:s.
On the table I made, that was the numbers before they adjusted the rapture and pw:s mana cost, so the revised table is:
4717 haste for the holy and spirit shell softcaps (this is 16.6% raid buffed)
9150+ 2359 to 4717 spirit. The 9150 spirit means that rapture fully refunds the pw:s cost. The 1 point of spirit to haste was a ratio 'rule of thumb' because of how frequently we were casting prayer of healing. Now that rapture is scaling at 150%, the ratio has changed depending on which spells we're casting. If you're mostly casting evangelism spells, you want less spirit per point of haste. If you're casting more expensive spells then following the old 1 to 1 ratio isn't a bad rule of thumb.
After those values are accounted for (16,226 to 18,584), you'll have somewhere around 1416 to 8774 secondary stats to put into crit. Most of the gear you can buy with valor is crit, so consider that you'll probably have it no matter what. The number from the secondary stats after accounting for haste and spirit is so wild because if you start gemming for Int, you won't have that many additional stats to throw around.
The amount of crit we can have on our gear as disc if you ignore the 16.6% haste plateau is getting pretty high once raid buffed. So if you wanted, you could probably sit at 30% crit raid buffed and still hit 10% haste with almost no mastery. But this is going to be much lower throughput if you ever switch to holy spec.
So the way I'm seeing is kind of 2 schools of thought. One is you are disc full time and you stack crit the same way you stack mastery now (meaning you stack it exclusively. No haste or mastery if possible). Or you reach the haste breakpoint (16.6% is a really good one for holy as well as disc) and stack mastery. Your potential total throughput as disc might be slightly lower than if you were crit stacking, but you're trading it off for the better pw:s and the ability to do more raw aoe throughput if you're in your holy spec. Neither is right or wrong, it's kind of a personal decision. I'm personally going to go the haste/mastery route. And that's after thinking that most hard aoe healing checks are more dangerous in 10 man progression. I can throw up some profiles now that the gear is datamined.
Edit: Here's the profile reforging heavy crit and gemming int with most of the 5.2 valor gear: http://ptr.wowhead.com/profile=35176561
In case the link isn't showing, that's
These numbers are the gear fully gemmed and enchanted, but with no food/flask/raid buffs. I did include one int and one spirit trinket instead of double int.
So basically, it will be fairly simple to hit that 30% crit rating when raid buffed next tier, should you wish to.
Double Edit: This is a more realistic look at next tier if you (like me) aren't going crazy with crit stacking: http://ptr.wowhead.com/profile=35176584
After hitting the haste plateau, there wasn't a whole lot of freedom between crit and mastery. I shuffled around with reforges to get the 4k mastery. If I decided to reforge away from mastery into crit, I'd have 2139 mastery and 3577 crit. So I'm looking at it going well, 7.85% more absorb or 3.67% more chances to crit? Neither reforge is going to radically change my healing as much as a personal spell selection will.
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/13/13 7:10 AM (PST)
Also, this was announced: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7909111142
Basically, don't go crazy upgrading all your gear over the next few weeks. Get as close as you can to 3000 valor points and then spend it on an upgrade so you don't cap. You want to be hitting the new patch with a full valor points so you can get the new 5.2 valor gear (which I stated above is mostly crit for the big important pieces).
Edit: I'll elaborate more about the valor gear. All the new gear will be sold by this new faction called shado-pan assault. Basically it's a faction you'll gain rep with primarily from raiding the new instance. You can buy gear right away at neutral (a necklace) and unlock more available gear with each new level you reach with their rep. I simply added all the gear up to see how much total valor it would cost per stage in their reputation. It's (neutral to revered) 1250+2500+5250+5750=14,750 total valor. If you go into patch 5.2 with 3k valor (capped), it will take you 1 week to get all available neutral and friendly gear. At 7 weeks, you should be finished buying everything up to honored. At 13 weeks, you should have everything up through revered (but at 13 weeks you've probably gotten equivalent ilevel raid gear in the slots that you can fill with revered gear). As of right now, we don't know how much reputation you can get per week. Also, I didn't include the trinket in the above because I think it's junk.
Soothing Talisman is still better than any 5.1 trinket outside of a fully upgraded heroic Spirits of the Sun. Unless you get two trinkets to drop within the first few weeks of raiding, I don't see how that would be a bad purchase.
Pretty much all the trinkets available in 5.2 will provide ~830 MP5 at normal level. Since Rapture no longer accounts for any of these spirit buffs, it's pretty much a wash at which trinket will provide more regen; they all provide pretty much the same. It's really a question of which secondary effect you like more, and/or which you can get your hands on.
Unless the shield trinkets take our mastery into account (which I haven't seen them do) then I'm not sure any of them have any real advantage over the other. The only real outlier here is the Lightning-Imbued Chalice, which provides extra throughput but no regen.
I'm still trying to factor out the real worth of keeping upgraded tier vs. the stat loss of T14. With how buffed Penance currently is, upgraded T14 is still looking like it's a win over T15. I'm also willing to bet that the T14 set bonus will be targeted for a nerf if too many people do it. :(