Twistedmind explains 5.2 changes (pvp & pve)

90 Blood Elf Priest
15135
I thought these threads were more fun when you had your goggles. It was like Ludwig von Drake explaining the Universe, things were so much more understandable coming from him.

I did read most of the thread, though, and am feeling a lot better about the changes now that I've seen a different view point than "OMG TEH SKY IT'S FALLING". Thanks for keeping things in perspective, :).

Also, thanks for the heads up on the valor points.
Edited by Kòtowari on 2/13/2013 12:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Soothing Talisman is still better than any 5.1 trinket outside of a fully upgraded heroic Spirits of the Sun. Unless you get two trinkets to drop within the first few weeks of raiding, I don't see how that would be a bad purchase.

Pretty much all the trinkets available in 5.2 will provide ~830 MP5 at normal level. Since Rapture no longer accounts for any of these spirit buffs, it's pretty much a wash at which trinket will provide more regen; they all provide pretty much the same. It's really a question of which secondary effect you like more, and/or which you can get your hands on.

Unless the shield trinkets take our mastery into account (which I haven't seen them do) then I'm not sure any of them have any real advantage over the other. The only real outlier here is the Lightning-Imbued Chalice, which provides extra throughput but no regen.

I'm still trying to factor out the real worth of keeping upgraded tier vs. the stat loss of T14. With how buffed Penance currently is, upgraded T14 is still looking like it's a win over T15. I'm also willing to bet that the T14 set bonus will be targeted for a nerf if too many people do it. :(


I think you're undervaluing the raw spirit on the Polarizing Seal by quite a bit.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17095
Twisted, can you post some of your findings and/or data regarding how secondary stat work or don't work for various spells in that massive PTR thread?

Ghostcrawler said yesterday that they were having trouble finding any such information.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
@Twisted: Your take on the subject seems to back up what I had thought. However, I'm not 100% convinced about Mastery just yet. Granted, it sims out really well. But, so does Crit. I think it's going to depend on how the fights run (though I'm admittedly way more open to the idea of using Mastery over Crit than I am to using Crit over Mastery).
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90 Gnome Priest
17125
This was announced
Priest
- Power Infusion - in addition to current effects, also increases all damage by 10%.
- And now, Discipline. Recall that the main problems we are trying to fix for Disc in PvE are that they are overpowered and relying too much on Prayer of Healing spam, especially in 25s. We made some changes to Divine Aegis, but we're not happy with them. Because of the interaction with crit and mastery, we worry Disc will be too crit-dependent and won't be strong enough when they fail to crit. On top of that, we're worried that it will be too easy to push Disc priests into loving mastery and hating crit or loving crit and hating mastery. To try and address all of those problems, old and new, we are trying a few different things:

1) Divine Aegis now works differently. It causes any critical heal to proc a bubble for 100% of the heal instead of doubling the heal. In other words, a crit for Holy is a 200% heal. A crit for Disc is a 100% heal + a 100% bubble. The bubble however benefits from mastery, so it's more likely a 100% heal + a 130% bubble.
2) Power Word: Shield can now crit for Discipline.
3) Mastery now boosts shields by 1.6% per point (down from 2.5% per point) but now also increases all healing by 0.8% per point.

What we hope this does:

- Keeps the kit of Divine Aegis making crits do something special.
- Makes Disc still awesome at bubbles, but not quite so weak at heals. (Holy will cast bigger heals than Disc, but not 50% higher.)
- Makes Prayer of Healing good for periods of restoring damage, but makes Power Word: Shield better for periods of preventing damage. (Inner Focus to force Divine Aegis and Spirit Shell also help with preventing damage).
- Making crit a good stat, because it benefits most of the toolbox (including PW:S) and causing Divine Aegis bubbles, but also keeping mastery a good stat, because the bubbles are large, and even when you don't get a bubble, it will still help your heal.

"Help, I'm a nervous Disc priest. Reassure me!"

Keep casting Prayer of Healing like you do today. Keep using Spirit Shell when you anticipate big damage. Start using Power Word: Shield more than you likely do today. Remember that we buffed Penance. Atonement still works. You might need to pay more attention to Spirit (the way the other healers do today).

Yes, I wrote all of this from a PvE point of view. We made several other Disc changes to help in PvP, and we haven't reverted any unless I explicitly mentioned them.


Are our stat weights changing agian? =<
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90 Human Priest
16625
Well, mastery and crit just got a pretty huge overhaul. I have to re-math the new values.

@tay I've shared lots of info in the two massive ptr threads. Some of the the priest related gc posts are veiled responses to things I've brought up ;)

Edit: link to what I'm talking about http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=90#1791
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/14/2013 9:12 PM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
They fixed the secondary stat problem (crit destroying mastery post 5.2 for everything other than PW:S), made our healing more consistent (through larger noncrits - our healing is less "tiny regular heal, huge crit + aegis" and more balanced), and did it without making any big changes to the overall strength of our heals.

It's breakeven to slight nerf to things that aren't PW:S, and a slight buff to PW:S (how much exactly depends on your mastery and crit), but decreased overhealing from the new crit mechanic should compensate for any reduction in theoretical maximum hps.

All our secondaries are much closer together in value post 5.2 now.

I really like the changes.
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90 Gnome Priest
17125
I'm very excited for these changes. They look promising.
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90 Human Priest
16625
Hey amabella, I've been playing around with differing combinations of secondaries and int to get a feel for how spells and weights are going to work with the intended changes.

Here is a preliminary of what I have (matched against int):
Crit = 0.613
Mastery = 0.545
Haste = 0.816

For Power Word: Shield, the weights change around because I'm assuming the new mastery shield portion will directly multiply against the the base value, but the healing portion of the new mastery won't be included. I'm assuming a pw:s crit is the normal shield value * 2.
Crit = 0.524
Mastery = 0.769
Haste = 0.816

So here are some conclusions by my initial weighting play:
Secondary stats are bigger than half the value of int at 20611.5 int (the value I got from the ptr gear set I made in the above wowhead link). So basically, we're back to gemming whatever secondary we need. Also, the three secondary stats all kind of decay at close to the same rate per in a very light exponential curve. Also, the secondary stat comparison to crit and mastery can exceed one another in additional healing per 1000 points if you stack one and exclude the other. Here's what I just said in bullet form:
  • Gem Spirit if you need mana.
  • Gem haste if you need to make a breakpoint or you're haste stacking.
  • Gem crit or mastery if you're happy with your current spirit and haste.
  • Between crit and mastery, crit is slightly better for most of your spells.
  • In the case of pw:s, mastery is much better than crit.
  • If you cast pw:s an average of every 13 seconds, 9 seconds, and 7 seconds crit still trumps mastery.
  • If crit exceeds mastery by 9000 to 10000 (depending on how often you use pw:s), you should stop grabbing crit and grab more mastery.


This is preliminary. Most of the conclusions being drawn in the above list is made with the spell breakdowns I'm using on live content and using the theoretical formulas for our new spells based on a one paragraph example that GC used. So don't take this as gospel.
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90 Human Priest
17065
This is preliminary. Most of the conclusions being drawn in the above list is made with the spell breakdowns I'm using on live content and using the theoretical formulas for our new spells based on a one paragraph example that GC used. So don't take this as gospel.


Is that why the state weighs look way, way off? Is this a case of 'pure numbers only, no common sense included'?

I can't fathom why crit as the RNG stat is better than mastery with the changes. Especially with how crit will work with the latest PTR changes it's even more of a case of 'all or nothing' with the 'crit' portion being a straight up DA bubble (100+DA) instead of a raw HPS 2x with DA (100 + 100 + DA). On the other hand mastery actually bumps absorbs across the board (though they didn't mention SS and how the new DA will work with SS) along with actual raw healing output - so for instances where you are just looking to top people off reactively and any DA is wasted this is actually a huge, huge nerf. This will hurt atonement even more since for smart heal you'll want a big raw HPS heal because the damage it's covering is sporadic and random, unless it's a fight like heroic Lei Shi where you have a steady 'top 4-5' people constantly dipping and no 'absorbs' are wasted.

So while 'on paper and numbers' crit is probably 'better' for output (everything absorbed). In practical application shouldn't it be leaning more towards mastery?
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90 Troll Priest
18695
Its a bit surprising to see Crit higher than Mastery for non-PW:S since Mastery also increases the healing done. I guess its a bit of the ever entangling properties of Disc healing. More Mastery -> bigger heal -> bigger absorb + bigger extra absorb.

Ow my head.

Could see Mastery as quite potent if PW:S spam is viable in 10 man. Not sure about mana constraints.

I am too wondering how the new SS works. Does the increase in the heal due to Mastery apply or is it completely excluded?
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90 Human Priest
17065
Its a bit surprising to see Crit higher than Mastery for non-PW:S since Mastery also increases the healing done. I guess its a bit of the ever entangling properties of Disc healing. More Mastery -> bigger heal -> bigger absorb + bigger extra absorb.

Ow my head.

Could see Mastery as quite potent if PW:S spam is viable in 10 man. Not sure about mana constraints.

I am too wondering how the new SS works. Does the increase in the heal due to Mastery apply or is it completely excluded?


YOU >:O GET OUT OF MY HEAD /shoo

And as a side note, with this change, we will never see a large critting green numbers again on our fancy screen. =(((((

/que healpeen guilty pleasure deflation
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90 Human Priest
16625
It's kind of tough to eyeball, but basically the old formula for average spells was:
spell*(1-crit) + ((spell)+(spell*0.5*mastery))*2*crit

The new one has some changes because the base healing portion of the new mastery. For napkin's sake, the new mastery is roughly 2/3 the old one in shield power and 1/3 in healing power:
1/3*mastery*spell*(1-crit) + ((1/3*mastery*spell)+(1/3*mastery*spell*2/3*mastery))*crit

The actual formula being weighted against my spells is:
=((A$2*(1+C$2*0.5))*(1-B$2))+((A$2*(1+C$2*0.5))+(A$2*(1+C$2*0.5))*(1+C$2))*B$2
A$2= base spell value
C$2= mastery
C$2*.05= the healing portion of the new mastery
B$2= crit

Then I made a table showing the increases as a percentage for each 1000 of a secondary stat added. Because both crit and mastery are multiplicative with one another, you kind of want both because the more of one stat you have, the more valuable the other one becomes.

For thinking about this in your head space, think of it like:
- 600 of a stat equals 1% more crit or 0.8% more healing and 1.6% more of an absorb
- But the new absorbs are only going to happen if I get a crit.
- If I don't get a crit, I'm only getting the healing value from mastery
- Crits for most classes are easy to figure out, 1% is roughly a 1% increase to throughput
- But because our crits are multiplied by mastery, we get a little more from crit
- So looking at the formula above and our starting points, 600 crit is a 1.04% increase in our healing. 600 mastery is a 0.91% increase in our healing.
- 600 haste increases hps by 1.41%

It's kind of like, crit and mastery should be raised together like haste and spirit should be raised together. As for the reliability of crit, it does look better on paper. But this new method of critting is actually going to reduce our overhealing. The only way to overheal with a crit is to heal a target that won't take damage for 15 seconds, but even that 15 seconds can be extended longer if you get another crit.

I'm casting pw:s more, but I'm not spamming it. The reasons I looked at casting pw:s every 7, 9, and 13 seconds was because those are good estimates to the frequency of casting it. There has been no mention of how this works with spirit shell yet. If mastery is factored into it by the possible aegis multiplied over crit (amabella said this in the other thread), it won't skew my weights as they work with the same scaling.

It could be argued that inner focus will devalue crit slightly, making mastery more attractive. But you could say the same thing about frequent pw:s usage. In both cases, these are subjective to playstyle. The build needs to come out on the ptr, but I'm tenatively going to hit the mana neutra spirit softcap for rapture and then get a bit more from base spirit on gear. Then I'm hitting the 16.6% raid buffed haste cap. And then I'm going to try to evenly raise crit and mastery. I might have multiple pieces to swap in and out for more mastery or more crit, but we're talking about a 2k-4k variance between the two secondaries.
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90 Human Priest
11345
Yes, I assume the spirit shell formula is still going to just be the average size of the heal cast outside of SS.

I'm probably going to gear mastery+crit in some combination and mostly ignore haste. The reasoning is as follows:

Our strongest abilities are all tied to a cooldown. Level 90 talent, PoM, Penance, Holy Fire/Solace, Shielding for rapture (although shielding outside of rapture may become better). When I get more haste, I don't get to use these abilities more, unless you count things like additional smites dropping the cd of penance. Instead, I get to use more "filler" heals: smite, PoH, actual single target heals. In addition, I have to pay more mana for the additional throughput, which I won't have to do if I gear mastery or crit.

Probably mastery > crit > haste is what I will end up doing, but on fights with pulsing aura damage you may be able to go crit > mastery and put up a ton of shields everywhere without worrying about your actual crit heals overhealing.

I'm assuming inner focus will still be a pure doubling of spirit shell, like it is now.

I haven't re-checked under the new mastery formula yet, but I expect that going for 16.6% haste for an extra cast under SS is a trap unless you end up close even when reforging out of haste, so you only need a bit more to hit it. If you converted that haste into crit or mastery you could add slightly less total healing distributed evenly over your other SS casts at no additional mana cost, and make all your non-filler abilities much stronger for every other situation.
Edited by Amabella on 2/15/2013 11:34 AM PST
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90 Human Priest
11345
Another interesting tidbit:

When they were introducing spiritual healing (to nerf shadow offhealing) they accidentally buffed PoM by 25% - it appears to either not be reduced by the base heal change they applied to the other heals or is benefiting twice from spiritual healing. Maybe this is an intended buff to PoM (I asked in the ptr forum but didn't get a reply) but holy's divine insight will be pretty lol if 5.2 goes live with PoM doing 45k noncrits. DI proc? 45 x 6 = 270k instant smart healing, even if nothing crits!

Edit: and then you put on 2p T15...
Edited by Amabella on 2/15/2013 11:44 AM PST
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90 Undead Priest
0
02/15/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Amabella
they accidentally buffed PoM by 25% - it appears to either not be reduced by the base heal change they applied to the other heals or is benefiting twice from spiritual healing.


Shhhh. :P I saw your post in the PTR section, and GC never answered it.
Let's just keep that between us since they never check the Priest forum. Maybe we can get an actual PVP buff in under the radar.

Ah, wishful thinking without consideration for larger in-game ramifications.
Now I feel like a real forum poster!
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90 Human Priest
16625
02/15/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Kimchi
they accidentally buffed PoM by 25% - it appears to either not be reduced by the base heal change they applied to the other heals or is benefiting twice from spiritual healing.


Shhhh. :P I saw your post in the PTR section, and GC never answered it.
Let's just keep that between us since they never check the Priest forum. Maybe we can get an actual PVP buff in under the radar.

Ah, wishful thinking without consideration for larger in-game ramifications.
Now I feel like a real forum poster!

lol. Well, I did post about the rapture bug in beta...5 times...in 3 separate threads. And then I used it like a maniac when it went live. And then it was removed without a word or warning. Too many posts to keep track of everything I guess. If it flies under the radar until release, that will be really silly because divine insight isn't just burst aoe. If you can get it to stick on a tank, it can be really crazy burst single target. ...And then we got the 2 piece, lol.
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90 Pandaren Priest
7670
02/15/2013 11:41 AMPosted by Amabella
When they were introducing spiritual healing (to nerf shadow offhealing) they accidentally buffed PoM by 25% - it appears to either not be reduced by the base heal change they applied to the other heals or is benefiting twice from spiritual healing. Maybe this is an intended buff to PoM (I asked in the ptr forum but didn't get a reply) but holy's divine insight will be pretty lol if 5.2 goes live with PoM doing 45k noncrits. DI proc? 45 x 6 = 270k instant smart healing, even if nothing crits!


Hah, I was wondering why my PoM's were healing for so much on the PTR! I hope they never change it.
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90 Human Priest
11345
02/15/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Kimchi
Maybe we can get an actual PVP buff in under the radar.


We just got an absolutely enormous pvp buff - divine aegis isn't going to be dispellable.
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90 Undead Priest
0
02/15/2013 01:20 PMPosted by Amabella
We just got an absolutely enormous pvp buff - divine aegis isn't going to be dispellable.


Yep, this makes me somewhat closer to a semblance of happy. I posted my previous comment before the nondispellable DA was announced.
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