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Speaking of broken things. I went to hydra's channel to see if he'd said anything about the loss of improved fade and discovered this little gem:
#showtooltip void shift
/cast void shift
Apparently, if you're shadowmelded, you don't take damage from incoming void shifts. So you can literally turn your void shift into a lay on hands again (which we know they didn't like because of the change they made to it after we were shifting our pets).
We should start a pool to see how long it will take before they notice the broken pom and void shift. If only we could trade gold across realms.
What's the change in mastery/crit doing to my current heals from 5.1 to 5.2?
See for yourself: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7811342046?page=112#2236
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/16/2013 1:51 PM PST
I think a lot of people are going to be upset when it "feels like" recovering lost hp is so difficult. My favorite change about it is the new weakened soul glyph. Part of wanting to get to 16.6% haste is so I can burst 120k hps on a single target for 7-14 seconds or so (strength of soul). I also think the ratio of outgoing damage + effective healing shifted again into atonement's favor. I'll be really disappointed if the new playstyle becomes sit at 5 stacks of evangelism and spam atonements for anything less than 70k hps.
In practicality, the outgoing healing we're doing is a lot more flatlined, so this will look pretty good for tank healing. For targets who infrequently take damage, we're seeing a little bit of a nerf. That's also what a lot of pvp'ers don't like about the change. I'd rather have the consistency, but that's just an opinion. Maybe a biased one after doing lei shi. I also think the divine aegis cap might pose a threat for gearing and single target heals, even if it gets buffed to 60% of our health pool.
I know I'm not happy with how I'll feel with Inner Focus and, while I enjoy Atonement (and am actually rather fond of playing a sort of swing healer on fights like H Lei Shi where most of my Atonement healing is going to slam the tanks or soakers) I'm a bit worried that it's going to be overly emphasized/needed and detract from the more traditional model of single-target healing.
Yeah Twisted, my numbers are pretty much like yours now ->
And as I said...this is an overall nerf, specially for our burst healing, inner focus and in conclusion to PvP...what is at least paradoxical, when considering that we Dpriests need a buff on PvP.
Edited by Mahadev on 2/16/2013 3:08 PM PST
Well, the rest of the quote says:
The percentages listed aren't exact though. On aoe spells, or low hps spells, the values are correct. But if you're lining up any kind of burst (either through grace, archangel, or procs), you're probably hitting the divine aegis cap at 40% of your health pool. So while those look like big nerfs, single target is actually getting a buff with the divine aegis going from 40% to 60%.
So the percentages aren't entirely accurate. It's just going to have to force a change in playstyle in pvp. Instead of biting your nails in a cc and getting off (hopefully) critical heals on targets, you're going to have to start healing them in anticipation that they will be focused and you ride out the cc train. The spirit shell and divine aegis becoming undispellable are much bigger buffs than the loss of lucky crit heals (but that's an opinion). Not to mention that 2 mandatory glyphs became a baseline. Passive survivability got buffed. Penance got overbuffed. You have much more mana to throw around. And phantasm got nerfed. Overall, I think disc pvp is coming out ahead, but I really prefer shields over big raw heals. I feel it's justified to make disc more vulnerable to target switching and less vulnerable to dispels. With your playstyle, it sounds like you'd like resto shaman more than disc priest. That's not intended to be a diss or anything.
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/16/2013 4:03 PM PST
I made a movie to explain how the new disc crit and mastery scaling and stat weighting. I made 2 copies so the numbers on screen would be legible if you had a 720p monitor or a 1080p monitor.
That should clear up where I'm coming from and answer the questions of crit or mastery being better.
The too long, didn't watch is
Disc: Int>Haste>Crit>Mastery (though crit and mastery are really close)
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/17/2013 7:08 AM PST
My two doubts about Haste stacking is the obvious loss of efficiency and whether the theoretical HPS increase from Haste will translate to similar increases in a raid environment as all that extra Haste is wasted unless you never stop casting throughout the entire fight.
It looks like it'll boil down to whether the extra cast during SS is worth losing quite a bit of mana efficiency. It'll also highly depend on how our mana holds out in 5.2 as it will dictate the usefulness of Haste.
This is just personal preference, but I don't think it's worth stacking Haste over Mastery in a 25-man as we don't use Renew often enough for that breakpoint to matter. With mana still being rather tight on most fights, I'm not sure if losing the mana efficiency from Mastery will be worth it, since obtaining the extra tick of Lightspring will not be sufficient to offset the loss in EoL.
Although, with the 2-pc T15, we're looking at PoM making up a much larger portion of our overall healing, and it'd be interesting to see how many more DI procs over the course of a fight we could theoretically get by stacking Haste.
Edited by Ceddya on 2/18/2013 6:51 AM PST
Twisted, this thread is very interesting for discussing current stats weights and preparing for 5.2 changes (though they are still being tested and changed every now and then), so thank you.
I would like to discuss some stuff that aren't very clear, even after reading all your maths and calcs...
(This is considering I'm playing only disc, and only 10 man raids, and only PvE):
I can't see how haste can be better than any other secondary stats, in current mechanics and even considering the patch changes. For a holy priest that heals a lot with renew, sanctuary and especially lightspring/lightwell the story might really be different - remember that I'm NOT playing holy and I'm NOT talking about holy.
The only part of haste being interesting for 10mans discs, IMO, is being able to cast another spell (GH / PoH) into one SS cast; even though, in current gear (I have 494 ilvl gear), I need to respec and gem everything into haste, even out of spirit, to grab the 4720 cut point; which means my crit and my mastery will be really low, not to mention some less spirit, only for a single extra spell cast into SS, and not to mention that the 5 PoH/GH casts I get without haste is already very strong in 10 mans (will still be after patch I guess, even with the balancing). As Amabelle has said before, as Disc I already have to monitor lots of spell's CDs (penance, cascade, PoM and PoM charges still in use, rapture to time PW:S, holy fire, evangelism, PI, SS...), and I'm limited to them, so haste will not improve their healing (I.E.: i'm not casting more cascades with more haste). Also, I'm always doing my best to benefit from borrowed time: I usually switch PW: between tanks, thus casting penance with BT (+ my next spell) and helping refresh rapture (which is always monitored of course), which makes extra haste irrelevant for most of my penances (+ next cast). This will be even easily achieved with 25% less mana cost on PW:S after 5.2.
I also love using atonement healing all the time, which means I'm always casting (I don't play in a mana wise manner, I usually don't have to worry much with mana, I have 12k+ spirit), which makes atonement very useful - its a smart heal, so it will always hit someone that needs the heal (when everyone is topped, thats not a good heal, thats a mana waste, but at least it's not that I'm not healing someone that should be healed), and it is some sort of dps help - some encounters benefit from it -, and it makes me stack evangelism all the time, making me able to cast archangel whenever needed. That is to say that atonement healing IMO is strong, and having it crit is better than having a little quicker smite (IMO).
Also, when I look at your numbers, I'm sorry if I'm being dumb here, but I dont see haste being better:
And for Garalon:
If I take, as an example, the "original" line, +100 mastery reads "25,948,759", and +100 haste reads "25,945,063", which is actually LESS healing than mastery... or am I missing something here? Crit is a little bit more, even when compared to mastery. The logic repeats on every analysis.
Considering the patch changes, and the mastery <> critical interdependence after it's released, the best thing to do will probably be to stack +crit and +mastery together, maybe on a 1:1 basis - there might be a specific rate to be calculated, but that is beyond my scope and not feasible since the changes might still go back and forth until the patch is released.
It would be wise to remember haste isn't only good because it grants extra HoT ticks or spell casts. It provides reaction time and a overall throughput increase when chain casting abilities, which is usually what happens during relevant damage. Perhaps this reaction speed bonus is overrated provided you are playing perfectly. But virtually no healer plays absolutely perfectly in all situations.
Seeing as Discipline has the capability of bombing atonement heals during lower damage periods "always casting" often applies. Such situations may not maximize healing but the point still stands.
Your BT comments confuse me. Yes, to some degree haste can feel devalued because of BT if BT provides "enough". The reality is with more haste the bonus from BT gets larger because various haste sources stack multiplicatively. The only time BT devalues haste is when chain casting as quickly as possible isn't necessary for maximum healing. And that really only happens during lower damage, which isn't relevant.
You could argue a spell like penance doesn't gain any benefit from haste because it has a 10 second cool-down. The problem there is the channel gets reduced with more haste, which means more haste still improves penance on the cast. Even with something like cascade a lower GCD is still a bonus, albeit a minor one.
I'm not saying haste is the best stat in the universe. It's just misleading to claim it isn't a very good pure throughput stat. The only huge weakness to the stat is it provides no gain in efficiency.
All that said, Twisted is probably spot on. In 5.2 the name of the game will likely be to stack haste until casting feels comfortable and/or to reach specific breakpoints, provided mana can support it, then dump the rest into some combination of crit and mastery. Chances are "it depends" will still apply, just as it does on live right now.
Haste is a pure throughput stat. It effects us in 3 ways.
1) Reduces the Global Cool Down - effecting all instant spells
2) Allows extra ticks on Heal-over-time spells at specific breakpoints
3) Reduces cast time of all hard-cast spells
It does not make any of your direct heals larger or more efficient.
If our mana was unlimited, Haste would be the *BEST* secondary stat to gear for. In this tier of raiding, mana is a concern. As such, we pay more attention to secondary stats that make our healing efficient.
Crit, Mastery, and Intellect buff your existing healing in specific ways. The higher these stats, the more healing you'll provide given your fixed mana pool. Mana stays the same, yet you achieve more throughput. Again, it makes you more efficient.
So in short:
Haste = Pure throughput stat
Crit/Mastery/Int = throughput AND efficiency stat
Hey Raskolnikovv, sorry I'm late to the response party. In my examples with total healing done being less, I didn't show the column for the reduced time spent healing. The mastery is more total healing, but the haste is more healing done in a shorter time window, so more hps.
And as ^those guys said, haste is a pure throughput stat if you're always casting. They pretty much covered the hidden bonuses, but for clarity here's what haste can do:
- It reduces all spell cast times, even instant spells
- It will give extra ticks on HoT spells
- It cools down a lot of hard hitting spells faster (using train of thought/strength of soul)
- It allows you to to fit more filler spells in between spells with fixed cooldowns (more casts in between penance, cascade, prayer of mending, ect.)
- It reduces the time between spells with a cooldown (very slightly) because of the increased percent chance that you're not in mid-cast when it comes off cooldown
- It can improve player reaction timing (have you ever just barely missed finishing a cast as a raider dies?)
- Haste is multiplied. So power infusion, borrowed time, and the raid buff are 1.2*1.14*1.05, not 1.2+1.14+1.05. So the more haste you get on your gear, the more haste will scale (however if you've watched my video you'll see that more haste also means that each point will do less hps because you're ignoring crit/mastery, so don't only stack haste)
But there are drawbacks too:
- Sometimes burst healing isn't a window of time, it's a single spell. Haste is terrible for these types of encounters
- Haste will oom you at an exponentially faster rate. So if you don't have the mana for your current haste level, you need to do some things like cancel casting or just waiting idle (in which case, crit/mastery would be better)
- Sometimes, it can mess up your 'rotation'. Like fitting in the perfect number of spells before casting a spell with a short cooldown happens at X% haste. If you go over X% haste and you're still casting, you'll actually change that 10 cooldown on that spell to more like 11.5 seconds. If you see it coming off cooldown and you stop casting for a second so you can get the perfect 10 second timing, you're still losing tons of hps because of the dead time. So haste can reduce your total healing situationally
- Haste can soft cap pretty quickly at 50% (for instant casts and 1.5 sec cast spells). If you have the 5% raid buff and power infusion going, that number is 19% haste. If bloodlust/heroism is going (still with the 5% raid buff), that number is 9.9%. If you throw borrowed time into the power infusion or heroism buffs, you'll soft cap at 4.4% and 0% respectively.
So what I was getting at with the stat weights under this new system was purely how do these compare hps-wise against one another. I didn't factor in all the little things that make haste good or bad, I didn't factor in longevity from spirit, and I didn't factor in good rng with crits. But I tried to account for inner focus usage and total pw:s casts per minute. So for hps weights, those listed percentages are a good model to go on.
Edited by Twistedmind on 2/25/2013 10:21 AM PST
Heyo, patch goes live tomorrow. Some last minute thoughts:
I'm dropping a bunch of stuff from my ui because Rapture doesn't use temporary spirit procs anymore. Nothing has changed much since the video on haste vs. mastery vs. crit. I'm still doing spirit gemming, highest int ilevel for gear choice, reforging spirit>haste to 16.6% raid buffed> and equal amounts of crit and mastery.
I'll be picking up all the new 522 crit gear with my valor. And I'm doing the first 3 fights as disc.
I've always found our shadow priest as an invaluable asset to our roster, even with lower dps this tier. It's not just dispersion, mass dispel, void shift that makes them good for pve utility. Mind flay is an instant slow that doesn't waste a global (like other instant ranged slows). Life grip, feathers, and body and soul are available to shadow. The amount of off healing a shadow can provide is often times the difference between 2 healing and 3 healing, and that's just with smart use of prayer of mending, level 90 spells, and vampiric embrace. They could full on stop and drop form for direct healing (which is still healing, even after the nerfs). And they still have a niche: twist of fate + sw:death + lots of targets is what they do best. Not to mention they just take less passive damage than everyone else. Two buffs have gone out since I last commented on them (a boost to shadowform and a boost to sw: pain). For pvp, they lost Phantasm for offensive pressure and the healing they were doing out of shadowform.
Considering all the changes, I'm looking at shadow and thinking I might look to shed one of my healing specs for it.
I'm also dinging 87 on all 9 of my alts. Soon, I'll be able to say I play all the classes at max level (again) on live content instead of only doing stuff on the beta/ptr's. So I've started branching out and posting on other forums.
I was putting most everything aside to power level a monk. Brewmaster tanking is probably the most fun I've had in 3 or 4 years (in wow). Windwalker is my offspec and I really like it. I started playing mistweaver more than my priest on the ptr to see what all the fuss was about with fistweaving and they're cooler now than they were back in beta. If you like discipline as much as I do, and you like resto druids like I used to, I'd definitely encourage you to try them out for healing. If you like blood dk tanking, but also like the zoom-stun-zoom warrior tanking tricks: brewmasters.
Most logs I've cruised through show this for (e)hps:
paladins>priests (both specs)>everyone else
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