5.2 Tree cooldowns

90 Tauren Druid
11420
Nature's Vigil now has a 90-second cooldown (was 3 minutes), and now increases damage and healing done by 10% (was 20%).


Anyone else bummed that Nature's Vigil will no longer line up with Incarnation: Tree of Life?

I liked to consider Tranquility as one of my healing cooldowns and NV+ToL as the other (since the 15% from ToL didn't pack enough punch to stand alone).

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=106731
http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=124974
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90 Night Elf Druid
18575
You can still line it up -- just use it twice for every one time you use Tree of Life.
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
It's actually nicer that its on a shorter duration (albeit weaker) since the way damage patterns typically occur in this tier are in waves and those "waves" occur much more often than the 3 minutes ToL or Tranq will provide. Think of blade lord RoB or wind lord unseen for examples (list goes on and on).
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90 Tauren Druid
11420
01/02/2013 05:11 PMPosted by Farther
You can still line it up -- just use it twice for every one time you use Tree of Life.


If encounter designers would be so polite as to space out the damage spikes in ~90 second intervals, I'd agree. Right now it feels more like:
spike (45 seconds) spike (3 minutes) spike (45 seconds) spike (3 minutes)
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90 Tauren Druid
11420
01/02/2013 05:16 PMPosted by Gardiff
It's actually nicer that its on a shorter duration (albeit weaker) since the way damage patterns typically occur in this tier are in waves and those "waves" occur much more often than the 3 minutes ToL or Tranq will provide. Think of blade lord RoB or wind lord unseen for examples (list goes on and on).


I partially agree, damage spikes definitely occur more than once every 3 minutes. That's why I pop Tranq for the first spike, then ToL+NV for the second (if it occurs much more frequently, I'd verbally coordinate with the rest of the raid).

I guess it all boils down to whether or not you consider 10% a "healing cooldown". I don't.

Maybe I'll get a couple of on use trinkets to bind to NV, or maybe I'll just switch to Heart of the Wild. Either way, I think Incarnation is going to become my mana conservation cooldown (or something).
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
I think you misread what I said.

I was saying they occur more often than three minutes (which is what you are saying as well) and so typically those cooldowns like tranq will not be up for every single one.

FnV on vizier h comes fast in phase 2, enough that you won't have a cooldown for each time, but now will.

Blade lord is a 1 minute cooldown on unseen.

garalon crush is 40-45 seconds if you do phermones right

wind lord has RoB every 50-60 seconds

There is no healing on amber shaper.

you can now have a vigil for each explosion on empress

So on and so on

My point is shorter cooldown short duration is always stronger in a pve setting for cooldowns. Think about it. when do people exactly die on fights due to healing error? Its always at the damage spikes and usually because lack of some form of cooldown.

Stacking cooldowns is generally one of the worse things you can do unless if damage spikes occur very erratically or not often. like on normal will, titan gas is a 2-2.5 minute cooldown and so i blow all cooldowns during that one phase since they will be up pretty much every time.

but considering that is only in normal mode, and almost every fight in this tier comes down to "can you survive the burst after lulls in damage" short cooldown short duration is king (which is also why spirit shell is great on its 1 minute cooldown, but thats another topic).

edit - i guess one thing i should add is that it woulda been nicer if the duration was cut in half (15 sec) with the same 30% bonus (again, though, not because you would want to use it in conjunction with another cooldown) since 30 seconds is very silly for healing. i mean it works for dps, but... yeah thats all i have to add.
Edited by Gardiff on 1/2/2013 7:30 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
11915
The NV change isn't about Resto anyway. It's part of the larger goal of reducing burst damage in pvp. Incarnation+NV is a powerful burst combo for Feral and Balance.
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90 Tauren Druid
11420
01/02/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Gardiff
Stacking cooldowns is generally one of the worse things you can do unless if damage spikes occur very erratically or not often.


I would normally agree with you, but I don't think you understand how weak Tree of Life and Nature's Vigil are as healing cooldowns by themselves.

I haven't played my Shaman since Cata, so I took some time to look up the class again. It looks like your raid cooldowns are:
Healing Tide - Strong AoE heal (like Tranquility)
Spirit Link - Localized damage-resistance + health redistribution
Ascendance - Basically +100% healing for AoE situations

I think that may be the disconnect here. If you think of ToL (+15% healing) and NV (+20%/+10% healing) as equivalent to your Ascendance (+100% healing), then yes, it would be a horrible waste to pop both those cooldowns together.

01/02/2013 07:21 PMPosted by Gardiff
(which is also why spirit shell is great on its 1 minute cooldown, but thats another topic)


You cite Spirit Shell as a good example of a short healing cooldown. Indeed, it looks like it would be nice to have a few pre-casted Prayer of Healings before a timed spike.

I'm trying to think how that would apply to a 5.2 Nature's Vigil, and I just don't see it. I suppose I could pop it 10s before a spike and Rejuv up each member of the raid, but that would eat up over 20% of my mana pool. Also, Rejuv only lasts 12s, so that's a lot of wasted ticks.

Maybe that's a hint at the real issue. Druids lack spammable burst AoE heals like Prayer of Healing, so we need bursty cooldowns to make a meaningful impact during spikes. Smoothing out our cooldowns is much more harmful than the math would indicate.
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90 Tauren Druid
11420
Actually, I just had an idea in the shower.

Retalent from "Tree of Life" to "Soul of the Forest", and use it with Wild Growth (as I read in EJ).

Combined with a Static-Caster's Medallion and 5.2 Nature's Vigil, you have a pretty decent AoE burst on a relatively short cooldown.

With Soul of the Forest getting a buff in 5.2, maybe this is what GC intended for us all along.
Edited by Corgan on 1/2/2013 11:58 PM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
18495
Actually, I just had an idea in the shower.

Retalent from "Tree of Life" to "Soul of the Forest", and use it with Wild Growth (as I read in EJ).

Combined with a Static-Caster's Medallion and 5.2 Nature's Vigil, you have a pretty decent AoE burst on a relatively short cooldown.

With Soul of the Forest getting a buff in 5.2, maybe this is what GC intended for us all along.


^ This without that bad trinket. Even if you have the 3043 haste cap you get +5 ticks on WG with SoTF.

I rarely EVER use tree form anymore.

And unless the tree form CD gets lowered or tree gets better then it already is, I likely wont touch it at all with the SoTF buff.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
Yeah when my druid was my main NV/Incarnation was one of my cooldowns as well. I dont really like what they're doing with druids in MoP unfortunately. They're still good at keeping the raid stable but their burst/cooldown healing feels quite lackluster.
Tranquility's strength combined with the fact that you have to channel it while standing still just makes me cringe.
Edited by Dezie on 1/3/2013 1:54 AM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
Stacking cooldowns is generally one of the worse things you can do unless if damage spikes occur very erratically or not often.


I would normally agree with you, but I don't think you understand how weak Tree of Life and Nature's Vigil are as healing cooldowns by themselves.

I haven't played my Shaman since Cata, so I took some time to look up the class again. It looks like your raid cooldowns are:
Healing Tide - Strong AoE heal (like Tranquility)
Spirit Link - Localized damage-resistance + health redistribution
Ascendance - Basically +100% healing for AoE situations

I think that may be the disconnect here. If you think of ToL (+15% healing) and NV (+20%/+10% healing) as equivalent to your Ascendance (+100% healing), then yes, it would be a horrible waste to pop both those cooldowns together.

(which is also why spirit shell is great on its 1 minute cooldown, but thats another topic)


You cite Spirit Shell as a good example of a short healing cooldown. Indeed, it looks like it would be nice to have a few pre-casted Prayer of Healings before a timed spike.

I'm trying to think how that would apply to a 5.2 Nature's Vigil, and I just don't see it. I suppose I could pop it 10s before a spike and Rejuv up each member of the raid, but that would eat up over 20% of my mana pool. Also, Rejuv only lasts 12s, so that's a lot of wasted ticks.

Maybe that's a hint at the real issue. Druids lack spammable burst AoE heals like Prayer of Healing, so we need bursty cooldowns to make a meaningful impact during spikes. Smoothing out our cooldowns is much more harmful than the math would indicate.


I am not misunderstanding at all, I know how these cooldowns work. I have an active paladin and the only thing they have are multiple throughput cds (GoAK, DF, AW, and HA if you spec it). Their raidwide reduction cooldown doesn't even work on close to 1/3-1/2 the fights this tier and they don't have a tranq or anything like that (though not saying they are weak or anything, just pointing it out)

One of the worst things you can do is pop more than one of those at once for one burst (assuming it occurs fast). While none of these three are exactly super strong, ask any paladin here and you will see they also don't just use both DF and AW for, say, one RoB on wind lord, I guarantee it. And ToL is more than just a 15% boost so calling it just a 15% boost is a misnomer.

You forget that with my spec I have 3 more cooldowns that I have access to that a normal shaman does not. EM, + 2 PE elementals. And yes, I plan ahead for every burst so that I will have ONE of these 6 cooldowns for said encounters at specific bursts (either a PE, an EM, a HTT, or ascendance). SLT is also sometimes added in there, but half the time isn't because it is not possible to position it always on more than half the fights this tier.

Edit - additionally on the 7-8 fights that I use it, SLT is one of those cooldowns I plan with my raid ahead of time since I don't always get to use that at free will. The other 5 though, are under my control.

Right now one of the biggest resto shaman buffs we are getting is EM on a 1 minute cooldown. Even if they halve the duration or cut the haste in half, it becomes much much stronger than it used to be and more people will spec it. Same idea is being applied here.

As an aside, here is what my heroic blade lord cooldown rotation is like - it only works since I have access to a crapton of cooldowns. With regards to shaman, I am not saying nature's swiftness is bad (its our competition for the tier - the best portion is the instant cast portion, not the passive haste), but by spec'ing right you will have a cooldown up each time.

hit 1) ascendance + SLT (raid wanted) + PE
2) SWG + EM + PE
3) HTT
4) ascendance + SLT + maybe an SWG
5) maybe an swg + EM

You will only get 5 if your dps is good enough so that means HTT, ascendance and even EM will eventually be back in phase 2.

Only reason I added this last part is that I am explaining how forethought to cooldowns can be very strong on some fights.

Also about the burst thing, GC said they are revamping shrooms since they suck for the role they are supposed to fill (which i assumed was aoe burst, but they really suck). having that also fixed will go a long way.
Edited by Gardiff on 1/3/2013 6:47 AM PST
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100 Night Elf Druid
13960
01/03/2013 01:53 AMPosted by Dezie
Tranquility's strength combined with the fact that you have to channel it while standing still just makes me cringe.


/cry

Can I borrow someones spiritwalker's grace please?
Edited by Blackklisted on 1/3/2013 1:09 PM PST
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5 Human Warlock
0
01/03/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Blackklisted
Tranquility's strength combined with the fact that you have to channel it while standing still just makes me cringe.


/cry

Can I borrow someones spiritwalker's grace please?


They should just make it instant like HTT. DH also to be fair. The differences are way more significant than just "flavor" as GC likes to put it.
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100 Tauren Druid
9665
Actually, I just had an idea in the shower.

Retalent from "Tree of Life" to "Soul of the Forest", and use it with Wild Growth (as I read in EJ).

Combined with a Static-Caster's Medallion and 5.2 Nature's Vigil, you have a pretty decent AoE burst on a relatively short cooldown.

With Soul of the Forest getting a buff in 5.2, maybe this is what GC intended for us all along.


^ This without that bad trinket. Even if you have the 3043 haste cap you get +5 ticks on WG with SoTF.

I rarely EVER use tree form anymore.

And unless the tree form CD gets lowered or tree gets better then it already is, I likely wont touch it at all with the SoTF buff.


Yep SoTL just became the mandatory T4 talent gg blizz we don't like cookie cutter specs.

It's !@#$ing %^-* ToL is supposed to be iconic and now it's going to be subpar to SoTL
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100 Night Elf Druid
18495
The fact is..

Tree form CD shouldn't BE a talent.

As a resto druid, we should always have our tree form.

Forcing us to choose tree form over something else always felt wrong.

Cats don't spec into cat form, bears don't spec into bear form, boomies don't spec into boomy form....

Incarnation however IS a talent for cats/bears/boomies as CDs

But make tree form a CD of us just for being a resto druid and make incarnation something else, like perhaps a more powerful version of the tree form or something. Or perhaps could make tree from from a 3 min CD to a 1 1/2 min CD.

Tree form is nowhere near as powerful as it used to be, especially since yes the instant regrowths are NICE but way too expensive.

And a 3 min "oh crap!" CD over better/faster heals the whole fight? Unfair choice!
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