My thoughts on purge of Dalaran (spoilers)

93 Night Elf Priest
17245
12/19/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Well, a frozen account is used to keep criminals from using their money to commit more crimes. If it happens, then trying to get it back is a crime as well. Pretty standard stuff today.


He was illegally trying to remove (his?) assets from the bank. 5 minutes earlier it would have been totally legal. But because he was 5 minutes too late we get a quest to kill him. Also, "legal" can be evil. I feel the kill order on him, the shopkeepers, and the mounts were evil.

And we still don't know how many sunreavers were horde aligned. There has only ever been 1 confirmed and he was kicked out of the sunreavers for it.


Too bad for him that he isn't above the law.
The Alliance version strongly implies that a good amount of Sunreavers were involved. I'll direct you to my last post. The Alliance players see plenty of Blood elves armed by the Horde, actively trying to kill Jaina and the Alliance representants in Dalaran.
The Horde version wouldn't show you these guys because we kill them in the Alliance version, leaving only innocents.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
9275
Hopefully this will have dire ramifications, but knowing Blizz the blood elves will just forget this 5 mins after it happens.

I still wonder if things would have been like this if it was the Silver Coven that have betrayed Dalaran's "neutrality". Probably a slap on the wrist.
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100 Draenei Paladin
11610
Hopefully this will have dire ramifications, but knowing Blizz the blood elves will just forget this 5 mins after it happens.

I still wonder if things would have been like this if it was the Silver Coven that have betrayed Dalaran's "neutrality". Probably a slap on the wrist.


You keep saying this.
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100 Human Warrior
16100
12/19/2012 07:31 PMPosted by Lynara
Hopefully this will have dire ramifications, but knowing Blizz the blood elves will just forget this 5 mins after it happens.


Why should it? Considering lots of things the Horde has done has not had very many dire ramifications.

12/19/2012 07:31 PMPosted by Lynara
I still wonder if things would have been like this if it was the Silver Coven that have betrayed Dalaran's "neutrality". Probably a slap on the wrist.


It wasn't necessarily that the Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran's neutrality. Dalaran was mostly neutral, but Alliance aligned. Aethas Sunreaver voted to aid Theramore in the conflict. After the whole Theramore thing, Jaina makes it clear she's very opposed to Garrosh and his Horde, but is okay with having Horde people in her city. As she said herself, it's important to seperate the Horde from its people.

If Dalaran decides it doesn't want to help Garrosh, then you don't help Garrosh. If you help Garrosh using Dalaran's resources, you commit treason.
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100 Tauren Druid
20120
12/19/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Why should it? Considering lots of things the Horde has done has not had very many dire ramifications.


Well a lot of the BEs were innocent and up to that point Lorthemar was considering defecting the entire race back to the Alliance.

./shrug.

I would expect them to expel the High elves from the sunwell for example in retaliation. Those kinds of consequences... other than the fact you have a bunch of ticked off BEs who were sympathetic to the Kirin Tor now being extremely anti alliance for their knee jerk reactions.

After all, Dalaran was their home for centuries.

12/19/2012 07:40 PMPosted by Mordstreich
Jaina makes it clear she's very opposed to Garrosh and his Horde, but is okay with having Horde people in her city. As she said herself, it's important to seperate the Horde from its people.


Problem is though, is that you have traitors existing.. and the whole point of traitors is they are not sanctioned by any of the organisations within the Kirin Tor. You really think Aethas would want to push the BEs into Garrosh's hands? You really think they'd want to be expelled from Dalaran where they've lived for centuries? You really think they'd want to give up access to powerful Arcane spellcasters, lore and artefacts? I seriously doubt it...
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15 Human Priest
10570
Hopefully this will have dire ramifications, but knowing Blizz the blood elves will just forget this 5 mins after it happens.

I still wonder if things would have been like this if it was the Silver Coven that have betrayed Dalaran's "neutrality". Probably a slap on the wrist.


If the Silver Covenant had
1 - used Dalaran and the Kirin-Tor on to create a supercharged mana bomb and destroyed a Horde city
2 - used Dalaran and the Kirin-Tor to gain a powerful magic artifact after having done #1

I would expect the Kirin-Tor to purge the Silver Covenant from the city of Dalaran.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
No, but again, as leader, it's his job to weed out traitors and deal with them before something bad happens. When the guy you sent to aid Theramore helps destroy it, and more of your men do something when you preach neutrality, can you blame anyone for either expecting Aethas is responsible for either being a part of it or enabling it to happen due to incompetence? How many more chances does this guy need to get his men in line? How much more betrayal does Dalaran have to put up with?
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15 Human Priest
10570
I would expect them to expel the High elves from the sunwell for example in retaliation. Those kinds of consequences... other than the fact you have a bunch of ticked off BEs who were sympathetic to the Kirin Tor now being extremely anti alliance for their knee jerk reactions.

After all, Dalaran was their home for centuries.


I keep seeinig the Sunreavers who were kicked out of Dalaran are now anti-alliance due to Jaina's actions, but it seems to me they blame Garrosh just as much as they blame Jaina.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14180
Frankly, the evidence against the Sunreavers was only that their resources had been used. The extent of Sunreaver involvement was never indicated.

What exactly are we questioning? That the actions against and by the Sunreavers were just or lawful? They dont neccesarily mean the same thing. Furthermore its complicated by priorities.

Jaina's priority, particularly after Theramore, is to ensure the safety of Dalaran and remove any potential influence by Garrosh. Even by the best standards, she clearly pissed off. I wouldnt call her level headed about it. Pragmatic and practical yes but not level headed. She takes an harsh but low risk method of securing the what is important to her.

Being pragmatic means avoiding allowing Sunreaver resources to escape. This adds to the confusion since Jaina originally talked about exile. Then she cuts of their means of escape. Most sunreavers are faced with uncertain fates in prison or death. To Jaina, the steps she takes are neccesary. Its too risky otherwise.

From the Sunreaver's perspective, the actions are very unjust, even if Jaina is their leader and many chose to fight rather than take their risks with a clearly ruthless Jaina.

To the Sunreaver's they see what amounts to a targeted attack on their race and political group. Most dont even know why they are being targeted. The group carrying out the action are stunchly opposed to the Sunreavers and their presence in Dalaran, who for many Sunreavers, is their home as was so prior to the Third war.

On the horde side we see cowering unarmed Sunreavers getting threatened with weapons and occationally smacked by the Silver Covernent Guarding them. We see a SC NPC in the sewer holding a Sunreaver over the Sewer shark in the water. When you attack he drops the sunreaver and the shark kills the Sunreaver. There are other examples.

I dont think this is clean from either side really. Frankly both sides responses were justified in the situation. Jaina's actions werew also lawful. However if we are talking purely from a moral and ethical standpoint her actions are far more questionable. Ironicly this very issue is the focus of the divide between the Horde and Alliance pandaran teachings. I have to give credit to blizz for working it into a ingame situation.

This event doesnt have clear cut right and wrong. Thats what makes it compelling.
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100 Tauren Druid
20120
Ok, you kicked one traitor out of the organisation. Can you tell me how you would be able to prove that you have more of them within it? It's not like they'd blatantly go around dropping hints would they?
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100 Human Warrior
16100
Problem is though, is that you have traitors existing.. and the whole point of traitors is they are not sanctioned by any of the organisations within the Kirin Tor. You really think Aethas would want to push the BEs into Garrosh's hands? You really think they'd want to be expelled from Dalaran where they've lived for centuries? You really think they'd want to give up access to powerful Arcane spellcasters, lore and artefacts? I seriously doubt it...


It doesn't matter though.

How can she trust Aethas? Take his word for it? She has evidence to imply the Sunreavers did it and this is a crisis situation. What evidence could Aethas provide to prove his innocence? All he had was saying "We've done nothing wrong" in the most incriminating voice ever.

She doesn't know how many Sunreavers are loyal to Dalaran after what happened. The only solution is to purge them all and sort it out later.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
12/19/2012 08:11 PMPosted by Waraila
Ok, you kicked one traitor out of the organisation. Can you tell me how you would be able to prove that you have more of them within it? It's not like they'd blatantly go around dropping hints would they?


Which is why in a time of war it's safer to just boot out all of the sunreavers. Aethas refused, hence imprisonment.
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It is not "knee jerk" when the Sunreavers have shown repeated instances of helping the Horde commit atrocity-level crimes against the Alliance, first by wiping out Theramore, and then by helping them secure an artifact that would be used to empower an army that the Horde's Absolute Ruler has declared will be used for the extermination of the Alliance in full.

Beyond that, they are offering aid and comfort to the Horde in general. Even if you somehow believe that it was one or two bad eggs and most of the Sunreavers weren't complicit, they are not only too incompetent or uncaring to self-police these traitors, they are still offering aid and comfort to this tyrannical and genocidal force.

Even if you ignore or explain away those specific moral realities, it's still specifically against the policies of not only Jaina Proudmoore, but Rhonin Redhair before her. The last two Executive officers of Dalaran have very specifically had a policy of helping the Alliance defend themselves against the Horde's genocidal tendencies. Therefore, talking about what have happened if the Silver Covenant had betrayed Dalaran really doesn't enter into the equation. While Dalaran was ostensibly neutral, it still specifically declared a policy of helping the Alliance defend itself.

And finally, it continues to boggle me that "kicking them out of their homes" is somehow a crime in and of itself.

Generally, when a criminal commits a crime, be it murder, treason, arson, or anything else, imprisoning or exiling that criminal is not somehow seen as depriving them of their rightful home, it's consider lawful detainment. "This is my home too" is generally not an excuse I have ever heard reasonable people accept for why someone should not be arrested for a crime, especially not for something as grievous as being an accessory to a genocidal army.
Edited by Jaelara on 12/19/2012 8:15 PM PST
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100 Tauren Shaman
14180
I keep seeinig the Sunreavers who were kicked out of Dalaran are now anti-alliance due to Jaina's actions, but it seems to me they blame Garrosh just as much as they blame Jaina.


Oh they do but that doesnt make them any less anti-alliance now. It infact makes them ripe for the picking for Vol'jin's rebels.

If the Silver Covenant had
1 - used Dalaran and the Kirin-Tor on to create a supercharged mana bomb and destroyed a Horde city
2 - used Dalaran and the Kirin-Tor to gain a powerful magic artifact after having done #1

I would expect the Kirin-Tor to purge the Silver Covenant from the city of Dalaran.


Frankly I suspect the reliquary are far more likely to be behind the creation of the Mana bomb. Im pretty sure that Dalaran and the Kirin Tor were never used in its construction.

I dont think you would have seen a purge though. There is no one in Dalaran with Jaina's power who could have forced a purge and I dont see the other six signing up to it, particularly if Rhonin was still in power.
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15 Human Priest
10570
Let me preface this with:
Trook, that is one of the most level headed unbiased description I've seen on the forums since this event broke.

Being pragmatic means avoiding allowing Sunreaver resources to escape. This adds to the confusion since Jaina originally talked about exile. Then she cuts of their means of escape. Most sunreavers are faced with uncertain fates in prison or death. To Jaina, the steps she takes are neccesary. Its too risky otherwise.

Personally I didn't find any confusion on this. As soon as you pick up the quests from Veressa you can clearly see Jaina teleporting civilians away. Logically (to me) she would be placing them in custody since Aethas refused to leave. Cutting off their means of escape just ensures that those who were guilty would still be in the city and would/could be apprehended.

I haven't done the Horde side but have watched a couple unedited videos and your depiction of the events is dead on with what I saw.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14180
12/19/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Jaelara
It is not "knee jerk" when the Sunreavers have shown repeated instances of helping the Horde commit atrocity-level crimes against the Alliance, first by wiping out Theramore, and then by helping them secure an artifact that would be used to empower an army that the Horde's Absolute Ruler has declared will be used for the extermination of the Alliance in full.


Although would agree with you on the Theramore point, also agree that it wasnt 'knee jerk' and frankly think that Jaina, finally, made the right call, saying the Sunreavers are guiltiy of repeated times of helping the Horde commit atrocity-level crimes is wrong. How exactly was stealing the Divine Bell an atrocity-level crime? Not one person in the whole city dies.

Now you could argue they are helping Garrosh become empowered with a powerful magical artifact but frankly how is the horde to know the Alliance wouldnt use it. After all, several of their leaders actually considered it. This is why Vol'jin is opposed to having the Alliance control the Bell. At least if its in Horde hands we can be certain it won't be used against us and have the potential to control what its used for.

And what other atrocity-level crimes have they been involved in. Even then frankly we only know of a handful of its members who have.

12/19/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Jaelara
While Dalaran was ostensibly neutral, it still specifically declared a policy of helping the Alliance defend itself.


This always struck me as hypocritical. Its my biggest fault with Jaina. The purge might have not been neccesary if she hadn't tried to play neutral while favoring a side. Maybe if she had made it more public debate from the beginning Dalarans streets wouldn't have ended up a bloodbath.

And finally, it continues to boggle me that "kicking them out of their homes" is somehow a crime in and of itself.

Generally, when a criminal commits a crime, be it murder, treason, arson, or anything else, imprisoning or exiling that criminal is not somehow seen as depriving them of their rightful home, it's consider lawful detainment. "This is my home too" is generally not an excuse I have ever heard reasonable people accept for why someone should not be arrested for a crime, especially not for something as grievous as being an accessory to a genocidal army.


Firstly, remember that lawful and moral arent the same thing. There can be immoral and unjust laws.

Secondly, this situation here is people being targeted on very little evidance and because of their political leaning, not a crime they in particular commited.

Thirdly, many of those involved don't even know whats going on. To most its an unjust detainment and robbing carried out by a rival political faction. Its not Dalaran's police or equivelent who carry out the purge. Its a group of political activists that directly oppose the Sunreavers.

While it can be argued that Jaina's actions are lawful, the Sunreavers restiance to what is, to them, an unjust attack on their rights, is perfectly sound and in many other situations would be appluded.
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When their "political leanings" mean they provide physical aid and comfort to an army whose main focus is, in fact, the genocide of multiple races of Azeroth, I admit to having a hard time rustling up too much sympathy for them when they get imprisoned for treason.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14180
Personally I didn't find any confusion on this. As soon as you pick up the quests from Veressa you can clearly see Jaina teleporting civilians away. Logically (to me) she would be placing them in custody since Aethas refused to leave. Cutting off their means of escape just ensures that those who were guilty would still be in the city and would/could be apprehended.


The reason I say confusion is that she offers them exile in the first place. If she just wanted the guilty from excaping then exiling them would have been counter productive.

More odd is that it seems the only one she offers it to is Aethas. I personally dont think she was very level headed at the time and I think she made mistakes as a result.

Im hoping, once she calms down alittle since she seems livid at the moment still, that she will come out of this at the end a little more pragmatic. She has always struck me as a little too much of a dreamer and not well grounded.

I also think shes going to have an issue now she has arrested so many Sunreavers. Its unlikely she can just free them at this point cause very few are likely to be freindly to the Kirin Tor after this so most she frees are as likely to go back and join the Horde forces. Now she has to hold them to avoid them becoming assets to the horde.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14180
12/19/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Jaelara
When their "political leanings" mean they provide physical aid and comfort to an army whose main focus is, in fact, the genocide of multiple races of Azeroth, I admit to having a hard time rustling up too much sympathy for them when they get imprisoned for treason.


The Sunreavers have been almost completely uninvolved in Horde activities. Where are you getting this physical aid and comfort from?

In MoP the only times we have seen the Sunreavers was in Silvermoon when the Mogu artifact was recovered and frankly Id expect the Kirin Tor to have reps around when the Horde is playing with dangerous artifacts. Even then its only Aethas and he spends his time their arguing about why the BEs are fools for still following Garrosh.

The only other BE who might be a Sunreaver is Fanlyr Silverthorn. We know his is Reliquary. The only thing we have to base that he is a Sunreaver off is that hes the one who tells us the Sunreavers are involved and he leads the Dalaran incusion. However hes never refered to at any other point as a Sunreaver.

Apart from those to instances, the Sunreavers havent been in any horde activities for the entire length of MoP. Not one Sunreaver has been around. Even at the Darnassus incursion there is only Fanlyr as a potential Sunreaver. All the others are Silvermoon Magi.
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100 Human Paladin
17625
12/19/2012 08:12 PMPosted by Mordstreich
How can she trust Aethas? Take his word for it? She has evidence to imply the Sunreavers did it and this is a crisis situation. What evidence could Aethas provide to prove his innocence? All he had was saying "We've done nothing wrong" in the most incriminating voice ever.


"You have it all wrong, Jaina. I did nothing."

You can practically hear him smirking beneath his mask while he says that.

Now you could argue they are helping Garrosh become empowered with a powerful magical artifact but frankly how is the horde to know the Alliance wouldnt use it. After all, several of their leaders actually considered it. This is why Vol'jin is opposed to having the Alliance control the Bell. At least if its in Horde hands we can be certain it won't be used against us and have the potential to control what its used for.


Varian is too principled to use a weapon like that against the Horde.

Garrosh has no such compunctions... and if that weapon did give him the power to defeat the Alliance, there's a good chance he'd turn it against the non-orc members of the Horde afterwards.
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