My thoughts on purge of Dalaran (spoilers)

15 Human Priest
10570
12/19/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Trook
Personally I didn't find any confusion on this. As soon as you pick up the quests from Veressa you can clearly see Jaina teleporting civilians away. Logically (to me) she would be placing them in custody since Aethas refused to leave. Cutting off their means of escape just ensures that those who were guilty would still be in the city and would/could be apprehended.


The reason I say confusion is that she offers them exile in the first place. If she just wanted the guilty from escaping then exiling them would have been counter productive.

More odd is that it seems the only one she offers it to is Aethas. I personally don't think she was very level headed at the time and I think she made mistakes as a result.

I'm hoping, once she calms down a little since she seems livid at the moment still, that she will come out of this at the end a little more pragmatic. She has always struck me as a little too much of a dreamer and not well grounded.

I also think shes going to have an issue now she has arrested so many Sunreavers. Its unlikely she can just free them at this point cause very few are likely to be friendly to the Kirin Tor after this so most she frees are as likely to go back and join the Horde forces. Now she has to hold them to avoid them becoming assets to the horde.


Her first reaction is to exile them from Dalaran, excise the cancer so to speak. If they aren't in Dalaran they don't have access to the city's resources. The offer (and I use the term loosely) was made to Aethas because he is the leader of the Sunreavers, had he accepted they probably would have been given a couple days to pack up (under the watchful eye of the Silver Covenant) and leave (assumption because this is the logical way to do it).

It was when Aethas refused that she orders the dragonhawks incapacitated, thus preventing those guilty from escaping punishment. At this point she possily thinks even Aethas is involved (his smarmy Sgt Schultz impression doesn't help).

The Sunreavers who are still in custody definitely won't be pro-Alliance and will most likely carry a grudge. Jaina won't be able to release them to go back to their lives in Dalaran at this point, the only option she'll have now is to return them to Silvermoon (most likely to happen after Garrosh is removed).

Jaina most definitely isn't level headed during the purge, she's beyond livid but not to the point of just killing the Sunreavers off. Her reaction to Anduin being critically injured by Garrosh only adds fuel to the fire. My personal opinion is we'll have a very pissed off mage on our hands until the end of this expansion, then she'll settle down again. I don't see her going back to her old self (fortunately), I see her going neutral at the end but more pragmatic about it and less of a dreamer.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
The purge sucked. We didn't find anyone that was for certain guilty of betraying the Kirin Tor or attacking the Alliance. All we did was take out a bunch of Silvermoon loyalists, not Horde loyalists mind you, who may very well have been guilty of nothing else.

And it's not even like Aethas was obviously stone-walling efforts to actually find and implicate those individuals. Nor was it obvious that he was incompetent and unable to do the job that needed to be done. To us, it seemed like Jania and Verassa simply had an axe to grind and were painting with a broad brush...probably because they were.

The Blood Elves are nothing. They aren't even real Horde. The ones I want to kill are the Orcs and the Tauren. They're the ones holding the Horde together. They're the ones that need to be broken.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
12/19/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Cbredbeard
The Blood Elves are nothing. They aren't even real Horde. The ones I want to kill are the Orcs and the Tauren. They're the ones holding the Horde together. They're the ones that need to be broken.


That seems a bit silly to argue. I mean, the Tauren have been kind of useless lately (their leader especially)... while between Theramore and 5.1 the Blood Elves are probably the most active Horde forces beyond the orcs themselves.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12820
I hope that in the future, when/if we see Dalaran again, we players can see what's happened to the imprisoned Sunreavers. Aethas refused exile saying that Dalaran was their home too, so many of them would be very loyal to Dalaran - It'd be interesting to see if even a small minority of those imprisoned Sunreavers who were found innocent decide to stay with the Kirin Tor.

Perhaps Jaina would release a few of the still pro-Dalaran Sunreavers to try to speak to Silvermoon - And Silvermoon's reaction to this would also be a fun exchange to see. Since a quest in Borean Tundra tells the players that the Kirin Tor can't use torture, it's likely that not all (I'd say only a few, but that may be my faction bias speaking) of the imprisoned Sunreavers were tortured, and some who may or may not be found innocent and released may still keep some of their old loyalty to Dalaran.

Meanwhile, there should be some Sunreaver NPCs added walking around Silvermoon. (I'd like to see a few tents set up west of the base of Sunfury Spire with a lot of recuperating Sunreavers lying there, perhaps a few in the Mage's room, or Aethas himself becomes a temporary Mage trainer or something there.) I really want to see Silvermoon's opinion of Aethas, since he really didn't do much - or seemed not to try anything - to stop Jaina. (He never seemed concerned about looking for the few 'traitors' in his group, which can seem highly suspicious.)
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
12/19/2012 09:11 PMPosted by Leviathan
The Blood Elves are nothing. They aren't even real Horde. The ones I want to kill are the Orcs and the Tauren. They're the ones holding the Horde together. They're the ones that need to be broken.


That seems a bit silly to argue. I mean, the Tauren have been kind of useless lately (their leader especially)... while between Theramore and 5.1 the Blood Elves are probably the most active Horde forces beyond the orcs themselves.


The Tauren are Horde loyalists. They believe in the Horde, rather than themselves.
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100 Human Paladin
12770
12/19/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Tessa
Lions aren't merciful. Why should I be?


I think the kind of lions you're thinking of wear red and gold, not blue and gold =P

But it IS high time the Alliance paid some of its debts, which is exactly what Jaina was doing here.

I have often criticized Blizzard's inability to write moral ambiguity properly, but I think the purge of Dalaran is their greatest success so far in that regard. If it hadn't been for Varian wagging his finger at Jaina for screwing up his diplomacy at the end, and the downright crazy sounding voice Jaina was ranting in during the purge, it would have been pretty perfect. I've given some thought to this and debated it with a friend, and my conclusion is as follows:

It was extremely UNCOMFORTABLE to do, but not strictly morally wrong. Which sounds about right, the measures and necessities one has to take in war often ARE uncomfortable, and while I hate when the story treats any form of Alliance offensive action or winning as "now we're the bad guys", I don't think the realities of war should be sugar-coated because some Alliance players won't accept anything short of incorruptible purity from their faction.

Jaina is the legitimate and duly elected head of state of the Kirin Tor as an organization and Dalaran as a nation, while the exact details of how much power she has on her own and how much is reserved to the council as a whole is not entirely clear, in any situation where we don't hear that the council is in opposition to her, it can be reasonably assumed that Jaina's orders have the force of law within the city.

One of the laws Jaina made was to put a blanket ban on aiding the current Horde administration, an entirely legitimate and reasonable law considering that the current Horde head of state is a genocidal war criminal. Despite their unusual predicament of essentially having dual Horde and Dalaran citizenship, the Sunreavers are obligated to obey that law if they wish to remain in Dalaran. They didn't.

Her response was measured, suspects were imprisoned, exactly as they would be in the real world, force was only used against those who violently resisted arrest with lethal armaments and spells, which, in the real world, would get you shot by a cop just as quickly as it got them killed by the player.

The big sticking point, I think, is the sense that all sunreavers were being punished for the crimes of a few and this was essentially racial profiling writ large, if your eyes are green, you're guilty until proven innocent, possibly drawing an analogy to the internment of Japanese Americans during world war 2. This doesn't hold up for a few reasons.

I think first of all it's very important to point out that the term "blood elf" is never used in Jaina's dialogue, always "sunreaver", the Sunreavers are an organization, not a race, they are essentially a political advocacy group, you choose to be a sunreaver, you aren't born one. Any of these people could have renounced the Horde and ceased to identify as Sunreavers, by continuing to do so, they are essentially at least tacitly condoning the actions of the organization.

Beyond that, at this point Jaina had declared war on the Horde, once in a state of war, it is a perfectly legitimate action for her to detain citizens of the nation Dalaran was at war with as prisoners of war, she does not need to meet the legal burdens of proof required to charge someone with a crime in a civilian court, which means she doesn't need to prove each individual Sunreaver she detains was aware of the treacherous plot or participated in it, they are not criminals at this point, they are the enemy. This also holds true in the real world, and has been an accepted wartime practice for centuries. You cannot simply allow citizens of an enemy nation to wander around freely in your country, waiting until each one can be proved to have loyalties to the enemy. Their mere citizenship, which in most nations includes an oath or other obligation of loyalty, is considered prima facie evidence of said loyalty.

The last thing I keep coming back to is that, given the knowledge she had at the time, which did not include knowledge that Varian was negotiating with the blood elves, what else could Jaina have done? She couldn't simply ask them to leave, and send the Horde a care package of hundreds or thousands of skilled mages, and she clearly couldn't keep allowing them to operate and assume their loyalty. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. When Thalen Songweaver betrayed her, she took Aethas at his word that this was an isolated case and the Sunreavers were loyal to her. It promptly happened again, and though Aethas claims to have had no direct knowledge of the plot, when accused of turning a blind eye, he doesn't even deny it. Aethas is clearly either a traitor or totally unable to control his own people. Neither is acceptable and the latter goes back to a problem Alliance players have complained about for two expansions now. The dreaded "internal Horde matter".

When we were attacked at the Wrathgate by Putress, Thrall told us to do nothing about it, because it was an internal Horde matter, and they'd deal with their own. When sentinels were skinned and cut up in Ashenvale, whether that was actually done by Horde members or Twilight's Hammer agents, Thrall, who thought it was his own people at the time, once again told us to do nothing, because it was an internal Horde matter, and they'd deal with it. This is the Horde's pattern, Horde members attack us, and their leaders, unable or unwilling to control their subordinates, then tell us not to interfere. Well, after two betrayals from the Sunreavers, Jaina wasn't having any excuses this time, and I can't blame her. At the very least, the organization appears riddled with traitors and Aethas can't or won't keep control, which just makes them too unreliable to be allowed to operate freely.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12820
This is a very well-written argument. I applaud you.
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
I have often criticized Blizzard's inability to write moral ambiguity properly, but I think the purge of Dalaran is their greatest success so far in that regard. If it hadn't been for Varian wagging his finger at Jaina for screwing up his diplomacy at the end, and the downright crazy sounding voice Jaina was ranting in during the purge, it would have been pretty perfect.


I agree though I cut Varian some slack since Id be pissed to in his position. Its not good to have allies do 180 degree changes in policy and such dramatic upheavals without letting you know. Varian is trying to have the Alliance fight as a unified body. Having groups off taking such dramatic actions without letting him know is bound to make his life more difficult.

I also agree on Jaina's ranting. It almost makes her look traumaticly unstable. Really pissed would have been enough.

It was extremely UNCOMFORTABLE to do, but not strictly morally wrong. Which sounds about right, the measures and necessities one has to take in war often ARE uncomfortable, and while I hate when the story treats any form of Alliance offensive action or winning as "now we're the bad guys", I don't think the realities of war should be sugar-coated because some Alliance players won't accept anything short of incorruptible purity from their faction.


Also agree. Its hard to write a good story without making things less clear cut. Sometimes getting your hands dirty is neccesary to protect people and stop bad things happening. Jaina did what she felt was neccesary. She wasnt going to have all the facts so she made a call. We may never know the extent of the Sunreaver involvement but this way she ensured Dalaran's assets were out of Garrosh's reach.

One of the laws Jaina made was to put a blanket ban on aiding the current Horde administration, an entirely legitimate and reasonable law considering that the current Horde head of state is a genocidal war criminal. Despite their unusual predicament of essentially having dual Horde and Dalaran citizenship, the Sunreavers are obligated to obey that law if they wish to remain in Dalaran. They didn't.


Did she actually do this though? I mean Im not aware of any law, rather just a general stance. Id be far less critical of her if there was established laws that censured Sunreaver involvement in horde activities. One of the reasons I don't is that Aethas actually assisted Silvermoon with analysis of a Mogu artifact and that seemed to have no issues.

12/19/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Dierle
Her response was measured, suspects were imprisoned, exactly as they would be in the real world, force was only used against those who violently resisted arrest with lethal armaments and spells, which, in the real world, would get you shot by a cop just as quickly as it got them killed by the player.


I dont fully agree with this. She trapped the sunreavers in the city, failed to clearly explain to them why they were facing imprisonment and eviction and, probably her worse mistake, left it to the Silver Covernent to carry out the purge. The horde side shows that a least some of the SC took this chance to carry out some grudges. Its really not suprising that so many fought back.

I think first of all it's very important to point out that the term "blood elf" is never used in Jaina's dialogue, always "sunreaver", the Sunreavers are an organization, not a race, they are essentially a political advocacy group, you choose to be a sunreaver, you aren't born one. Any of these people could have renounced the Horde and ceased to identify as Sunreavers, by continuing to do so, they are essentially at least tacitly condoning the actions of the organization.


Perhaps but I think this is a moot point since most if not all BEs in Dalaran were Sunreavers. The Sunreavers were a politically regocnised organisation with a leader who was part of the council incharge of the Kirin Tor. The scale of Sunreaver involvement is also not known. The fact that the entire faction was targeted when the guilty parties and level of involvement was unknown and the method Jaina used is what makes this 'grey'. Do remember the whole thing that lead to this could have been carried out by a single sunreaver or even someone with stolen Sunreaver access. The fact was that Jaina couldnt take that chance is true. The fact that she struck with very broad and racially focused strokes is also true.

Weither it was intended or not because of the racial makeup of the situation it looks like race factors into it. It doenst help that after with her talk to Varian she has the 'once horde always horde' comment.

12/19/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Dierle
Beyond that, at this point Jaina had declared war on the Horde, once in a state of war, it is a perfectly legitimate action for her to detain citizens of the nation Dalaran was at war with as prisoners of war, she does not need to meet the legal burdens of proof required to charge someone with a crime in a civilian court, which means she doesn't need to prove each individual Sunreaver she detains was aware of the treacherous plot or participated in it, they are not criminals at this point, they are the enemy


Very true. My issue with Jaina has always been how she went about doing it. This is something she should have been on top of far earlier and should have had structured far clearer. At the very least she should have used official Kirin Tor guards, not Stormwind Soldiers and alliance aligned SC to carry out the arrests. Alot of deaths happened on both sides in Dalaran because of the methods she chose.

12/19/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Dierle
She couldn't simply ask them to leave


But she did exactly that.

It promptly happened again, and though Aethas claims to have had no direct knowledge of the plot, when accused of turning a blind eye, he doesn't even deny it. Aethas is clearly either a traitor or totally unable to control his own people.


Aethas is very unlikely to have been involved unless his characterisation did a 180 in the space of the same quest chain. I also dont remember him getting chance to argue much. However considering how proud he was of his peoples place in the Kirin Tor it strikes me as unlikely that he would turn a blind eye either.

Neither is acceptable and the latter goes back to a problem Alliance players have complained about for two expansions now. The dreaded "internal Horde matter".


True but think in context. Would Varian be ok with the Horde invading a Alliance city that had been taken over by say twilight hammer cultists? Would he be keen to arrest and hand over allaince citizens to horde justice? Thrall had some valid points.

The problem the horde has is that usually when things go wrong in game its the horde that is the source. If say we had been playing out the Nightmare War, I doubt the NEs would have been happy if the Horde launched an independent strike on Darnassus to take out Staghelm.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20135
Jaina says "You are no longer welcomed here"
Aethas quietly says "This is our city too Jaina"

Then she iceblocks him, kills all their mounts, and issues a dungeons or death order. On the strength of that "refusal" to leave, she then changes from "leave the city" to "Your stuff is mine and you are all going to the dungeons where we execute blood elves or I will execute you in the street"

My, that escalated quickly.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120
12/20/2012 01:58 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
issues a dungeons or death order.


More like she ordered the imprisonment of the Sunreavers for questioning, and for her guards to actually fight back against hostile resistance.
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100 Night Elf Hunter
20135
12/20/2012 02:06 AMPosted by Gandred
More like she ordered the imprisonment of the Sunreavers for questioning, and for her guards to actually fight back against hostile resistance.


What is said exactly is "Compliant sunreavers will be sent to the violet hold, any that refuse to leave will be put to the sword."

It sounds like her guards were told to kill anyone showing hostile resistance, pitiful resistance, or civil disobedience.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
Dalaran joining the Alliance wasn't a proud moment and I'm not convinced it'll have any real benefit or baring.
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58 Undead Death Knight
120

What is said exactly is "Compliant sunreavers will be sent to the violet hold, any that refuse to leave will be put to the sword."

It sounds like her guards were told to kill anyone showing hostile resistance, pitiful resistance, or civil disobedience.


By Vereesa, not Jaina.
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90 Undead Warlock
13800
Just finished the purge from Horde side. Let me tell ya, as a Horde Lock it was Christmas come early. Killing not only Mages, but ALLIANCE MAGES?! YES PLEASE!

Quite interesting scenario.

Jaina has been giving support to the Alliance for a while now, even while at her position as head of the Kirin Tor, which is supposed to be neutral. Seems like the Sunreavers did the same, and she didn't like that.

She definitely made things worse for herself. The Belfs were talking with Varian about joining the Alliance, but now? Not so much.

Lorthemar has had enough. He is assembling the Blood Mages, whose power has recently skyrocketed thanks to the addition of the Sunreavers into their ranks. The Blood Knights are ready for blood. The Rangers have been gathered as well. Not sure what he is planning, but it is something big.

Lorthemar for Warchief!
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90 Undead Rogue
6915
12/19/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Cassima
I've always had a soft spot for the blood elves, after seeing all the suffering they've had to endure in Warcraft 3 and the sorry state that their kingdom still remains in.


Saddest WOW video I have ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtDDoy4pvU

After watching that video the pity I have for the Blood Elves and Forsaken skyrocketed.

It's funny how a 5 minute fan video can capture the moment better than Blizzard.
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91 Undead Warlock
7410
12/20/2012 06:07 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtDDoy4pvU


You know what... that makes me hate the Alliance-Horde war even more.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
12/20/2012 02:11 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
It sounds like her guards were told to kill anyone showing hostile resistance, pitiful resistance, or civil disobedience.


Do you ever get tired of making things up?

12/20/2012 02:12 AMPosted by Cbredbeard
Dalaran joining the Alliance wasn't a proud moment and I'm not convinced it'll have any real benefit or baring.


Considering how it was set up at the end of 5.1 I think we're going to see a great deal of Kirin Tor action soon.

All these people solemnly shaking their heads about how it's "morally ambiguous" or how it "wasn't worth the price" are freaking insane. The Sunreavers can betray Dalaran TWICE and they STILL aren't allowed to do anything about it?

If you look at the expulsion of the Sunreavers and conclude that it's "morally ambiguous" then please roll Horde because you're part of the reason the Alliance can't have nice things.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Saddest WOW video I have ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtDDoy4pvU

After watching that video the pity I have for the Blood Elves and Forsaken skyrocketed.

It's funny how a 5 minute fan video can capture the moment better than Blizzard.


A die-hard Forsaken fan likes fanfiction more than actual lore. Colour me unsurprised.

The Horde were not present in any way, shape, or form when Arthas was defeated.
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91 Undead Warlock
7410
12/20/2012 06:36 AMPosted by Vyrin
The Horde were not present in any way, shape, or form when Arthas was defeated.


So the Gunship totally wasn't there, huh?

BTW Vyrin you are being awfully rude. A person likes a video, and you make a rude remark about them liking it. Seriously, learn manners, being a fan boy is no excuse to be rude.
Edited by Ximothy on 12/20/2012 7:10 AM PST
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90 Human Death Knight
13050
12/20/2012 06:07 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRtDDoy4pvU


It's alright.
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