Needed RET Changes for 5.2

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9715
1.) FIX CENSURE DAMAGE - Damage is entirely too low. I have tested this on a Hunter that was in almost full epic PvP gear. He had 363K life . . . 5 stack of censure was ticking for 2951 . . . this means my 5 stack debuff was hitting for .8% of his total life per 2.64 second . . . His health re-gen is more than that. Fix this crap ... its broken and it will help with the PvE heroes complaining about Ret damage as well.

2.) FIX HAMMER OF WRATH - This ability was intended as and execute and still operates as one but does HORRIBLE DAMAGE (outside of wings / Holy avenger) when compared to Kill Shot, Execute and other similar abilities. I purpose that they increase the damage so we can actually land a frigging kill when someone is low and we don't have 5,3,2 min cool downs up. Then reduce its damage by 50% (or whatever works to keep it about the same damage as it is currently) when we can use it during wings so its not crazy OP. Fix this crap ... make our "execute" and fringing execute again. But do it right and don't make it OP. And this again could help the PvE heroes to get more DPS at the end of Boss Fights.

3.) FIX MASTERY (HAND OF LIGHT) - If Blizzard somehow actually fixes Hammer of Wrath as I suggested above then they could remove it from our Mastery and then add Judgement into Hand of Light in its place. This would increase our damage output a decent amount without CDs up but not really change them or even decrease the burst while Wings is up because Hammer of Wrath is not benefiting from Hand of Light and sharing the same CD time as Judgment. Again . . . PvE minor sustained damage buff.

4.) PvP POWER - This goes for all Hybrid classes not just Rets. Although I agree that we should not benefit in full for the healing buff PvP power brings healing classes I feel that 0% is too much of a nerf. I feel like maxing it out at 15% - 20% to help deal with mortal strike effect and the battle healer debuff would be sufficient without becoming OP like it was when hybrids were running with 50% or so healing PvP Power.

These are just my opinions but I feel that they would be some very easy changes to make the would help the current stat of PvP and PvE Ret Paladins.

And for the record I am tired of hearing about Rets complaining about Inquisition. Feral Druids have to keep Savage Roar up Rogues have to Keep Slice and Dice and Recuperate up. And other classes have similar buffs and proc management pay attention to . Shut up and hit the button once every 30 seconds.

Hope you like the post. Thanks guys.
Edited by Zakkira on 12/26/2012 6:51 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6990
12/26/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Zakkira
1.) FIX CENSURE DAMAGE - Damage is entirely too low.


I don't think censure damage needs to be buffed at all, when I ranked 23rd on heroic Stone Guard censure damage was 19% of my damage done, more than any other ability. I realize this is a multi-target fight but 19% is still pretty high.

12/26/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Zakkira
2.) FIX HAMMER OF WRATH - This ability was intended as and execute and still operates as one


Hammer of Wrath isn't an execute. Executes can ONLY be used when the target is below 20% health, where as Hammer of Wrath can be used whenever we have Avenging Wrath activated. If HoW hit as hard as a regular execute our burst damage would be far too overpowered.

12/26/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Zakkira
4.) PvP POWER - This goes for all Hybrid classes not just Rets. Although I agree that we should not benefit in full for the healing buff PvP power brings healing classes I feel that 0% is too much of a nerf. I feel like maxing it out at 15% - 20% to help deal with mortal strike effect and the battle healer debuff would be sufficient without becoming OP like it was when hybrids were running with 50% or so healing PvP Power.


I do agree that we need some way to stay alive in PvP, but the amount of changes coming out in 5.2 could actually put us in a good spot, even without direct buffs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9715
Censure damage is too low in PvP period. PvE maybe not so much.

Read the post again about Hammer of Wrath . . . I stated that if they were to buff the damage while target is below 20% the they would need to nerf that damage while Avenging Wrath is active. And yes Hammer of Wrath is and Execute . . . with no Wings you CANNOT USE IT unless target is under 20%.
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90 Human Paladin
5150
Hammer of wrath is not a execute and it is a move that happens to have a requirement of having the target below 20% health to use. We could maybe allow us to gain 25% of pvp power to increase heals. Mastery would be op not double dipping in resilence. Censure hits for more then 3k mine ticks 6-7k with 5stacks
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90 Human Paladin
9970
The main fix Mastery needs is to not double-dip on resilience. It's garbage for PvP precisely because it's ~60% less effective than it should be.

I mean, that fix alone would be a buff of, what, ~15% to TV and HoW?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9715
OK I agree with your statement of Hammer of Wrath is not an execute . . . that is actually my point . . . HoW used to be and execute in BC and WoTLK . . . but it no longer is. We need to be able to land a kill in PVP outside of our huge DPS CD's. It still has the same mechanic as it used to but is far less effective than it once was.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9715
The main fix Mastery needs is to not double-dip on resilience. It's garbage for PvP precisely because it's ~60% less effective than it should be.

I mean, that fix alone would be a buff of, what, ~15% to TV and HoW?


I believe they fixed this problem in the most recent patch. I heard Vanguards talking about it in his stream.

Anyone know for sure?
Edited by Zakkira on 12/26/2012 7:23 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5150
Its ment to double dip when I do a 100k hammer on somebody it still does a 15k mastery proc and im not stacking mastery either so If we had it not effected by resilence that would be a 32k proc much to high it would cause mastery stacking to cause absurd damage in pvp.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
The main fix Mastery needs is to not double-dip on resilience. It's garbage for PvP precisely because it's ~60% less effective than it should be.

I mean, that fix alone would be a buff of, what, ~15% to TV and HoW?


I believe they fixed this problem in the most recent patch. I heard Vanguards talking about it in his stream.

Anyone know for sure?

Did they? I haven't checked recently. If it's been fixed, great.
12/26/2012 07:22 PMPosted by Paladinww
Its ment to double dip when I do a 100k hammer on somebody it still does a 15k mastery proc and im not stacking mastery either so If we had it not effected by resilence that would be a 32k proc much to high it would cause mastery stacking to cause absurd damage in pvp.

I'm not seeing how 115k is fine but 132k is absurd. Moreover, the double-dipping makes/made Mastery by far our worst stat for PvP, which is a real problem since it's plastered all over our PvP gear.

And I'm putting [citation needed] on the claim that it's intentional. Double-dipping on anything, especially in such a major way (more than a factor of 2 apart) has, historically, almost never been intentional in this game.
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90 Orc Monk
12345
12/26/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Paladinww
Hammer of wrath is not a execute and it is a move that happens to have a requirement of having the target below 20% health to use.

... that's the very definition of an execute.
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90 Human Paladin
5150
So your saying Templar is a execute too because it has a requirement? No a execute can only be used on a target below a certain percent while hammer of wrath can be used outside its normal limitations with avenging wrath making it a move...
Edited by Paladinww on 12/26/2012 7:45 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
9970
Although HoW is an execute move, it doesn't appear to be designed the same way as other executes. I mean, it's a combo builder - it's a weird type of execute that backloads part of its value into a TV somewhere down the line.

The first thing to change, if it were to be made into a better execute, would IMO be to remove the Holy Power generation, and add that backloaded damage into HoW itself.
12/26/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Paladinww
So your saying Templar is a execute too because it has a requirement?

Templar's Verdict doesn't have a health requirement.
Edited by Ravicana on 12/26/2012 7:48 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
5150
Executes use resources they do not generate them hence one of the difference.
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90 Orc Monk
12345
12/26/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Paladinww
Executes use resources they do not generate them hence one of the difference.

Shadow Word: Death generates Shadow Orbs, so by your definition that's not an execute?
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100 Human Paladin
9935
Why post that here? The Dev's do not read the class forums.
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90 Human Paladin
9970
12/26/2012 07:54 PMPosted by Paladinww
Executes use resources they do not generate them hence one of the difference.

...no, executes are used on low-health targets. That's why we call them executes: because you use them to kill the target.

But we're really just arguing semantics here. Whether you want to categorize HoW as an execute or not, it has a health requirement (which you can circumvent during AW, true). TV does not. It also BUILDS resources, while TV consumes them. These are qualitatively different things.

I think HoW is suffering the same fate warrior Execute did, back during WotLK: since you can circumvent the health requirement (via Sudden Death for arms, via Wings for ret), it can't hit too hard, because being able to open with a full-strength execute is kiiiinda unfair. One way around that would be to increase its damage only when the target is in execute range, but the other method - and the one they favored for Execute - is to remove the ability to work around the requirement. So, in a way, I think AW allowing the use of HoW is kind of a bad thing for the spec.
Edited by Ravicana on 12/26/2012 8:15 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
7175
HoW will never be as powerful as execute for a few reasons.

1. It generates a resource as opposed to expending one

2. It is usable during cooldowns

3. It is usable at a range
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90 Draenei Paladin
11865
In general? i would say give pallies a 5% damage buff.
I want to finish my dailies faster.
Pallies dont need a buff for pvp at all, Burst hurts enough and you have self heals and kiting is amazing as ret.
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90 Human Warlock
5225
Be warned. Resident blizz fanboys are spamming reports on this post as we speak. Please don't post in the paladin forum unless you're prepared to get your nose very brown.
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100 Human Paladin
17535
Wasn't it mentioned a while ago that Censure was bugged in pvp and was hitting for like 1/5th the damage its supposed to? I really haven't heard any changes about this.
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