Mastery/Haste Breakpoint Questions (Shamans)

It's a topic I see handled quite often on the Shaman forums, but I never seem to leave with a straight answer. I came here looking to confirm or deny information I've gathered. I use elitistjerks.com for all my stat breakpoints and what not, but I also see people list off many different breakpoints.

Now to my knowledge the lowest haste breakpoint you can hit is 871 and the highest is 3764, seems pretty straightforward but how does the addition from Ancestral Swiftness fit in? Do the breakpoints remain unchanged and I'm overthinking it, or does it alter what the breakpoints are and if that's the case... what are they?

For mastery, it's a lot of the same situation where as in Cata I recall just stacking mastery after hitting my highest haste threshold I've read now that you only get it to 50%. But shamans have a base of 39% mastery (24% base at level 90/15% Grace of Air) So do we only get another 11% (2200) mastery before stacking crit assuming we have our haste threshold as well and are comfortable with our mana regen? Or do we get 50% mastery through just gear alone which I believe is... 10 000 mastery and it's at I guess what would be the latest teirs of the expansion and have a whopping total of... 89% mastery 0.o seems silly, just curious.

For those of you interested in this discussion I'd like to get as many opinions in here as possible so at least if there's a lot of them, they'll be in one place so bookmark this thread! (: Look forward to seeing your answers guys and the discussion that will arise from it! ^_^ and thanks in advance!

Cheers!
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90 Draenei Monk
11920
As for the haste breakpoints, ancestral swiftness does change the numerical amount of haste rating you will need, but not the % of haste required for the breakpoint. All haste breakpoint values are given by haste rating to make it easier to figure out how to gear, and most numbers are given also assuming the 5% spell haste raid buff, which has the same effect that ancestral swiftness does. Icy-veins.com has a complete list of all possible combinations of haste buffs (even the goblin racial) and the corresponding haste rating required to reach the breakpoint with the given buffs.

I can`t directly link the page since I am on my phone, but if you go to their restoration guide, then go to stat priorities/reforging I believe the list is near the bottom of the page.

As for crit/mastery, it depends a lot on playstyle and preference. A crit build isn`t as good if you find yourself focusing on tanks more than the raid, or are even assigned to tank healing. The crit build really shines on raid healing, as crit does more for you throughput wise than mastery on targets over 50% hp, point for point (so I`ve heard...), and also acts as a secondary regen stat with resurgence.
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
The mastery thing is more of... how you see damage patterns in your raid group. Not an easy answer. Like generally if there is no discipline priest, mastery serves you well (or any absorb healer for that matter). Crit is strong too.

I personally like mastery a lot too.

that 871 breakpoint or 3764 is ASSUMING you have both that talent + the 5% raid buff. I found it too tough to reforge down to 871 and the 3764 is not working currently, so its a lot of wasted stat points unless if you can get pretty close to 871. That is why I go with EM instead (thought the instant cast saves are nice with AS).

If you don't spec into AS, you can choose to go for either the 9.98% breakpoint (about 2020 haste) or the less useful 12.51% haste (about 3040 haste). This second breakpoint is equivalent to that 871 and again isn't terribly useful in 10 mans so that is another reason why even going down to just 871 isn't terribly useful (ideally you would go with something like -200 haste if possible but yeah thats not possible)

The power in AS comes from the instant cast portion, not really the 5% passive haste.
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Okay, yeah I dunno I feel like kind of a nub cause I had healing down pretty well in Cata but since coming back from a break I'm all over the place xD Same with gemming too, are blues spirit/int or just spirit because Int doesn't add mana anymore and just SP or has gemming not even changed and red slots are still Int gems, just you benefit from the SP alone instead of also getting more mana. I just find I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around it since coming back :P
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
I tend to prefer hybrid gems currently, and I've got a whole grab bag of different kinds going on right now. I haven't gone in any particular direction with gems, sadly. Mostly I went to meet socket bonuses with whatever I had available in my bags so I could put the piece on right in raid. :P

I think a basic rule of thumb still follows. If you need mana, focus your choices towards spirit gems, either pure or hybrid. If not, go hybrid (spell power + secondary stat) (meet socket bonus) and focus on other stats like mastery, or perhaps haste or crit. Gear at early progression doesn't even have very many sockets to be honest, so there are not a lot of decisions to be made, heh.

Socket bonuses are much stronger than they used to be, so it is often worth it to hit them. Secondary stats are now at a 2:1 ration with primary stats on gems, so consider these two changes when deciding.
Edited by Fluffy on 12/27/2012 9:35 AM PST
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12/27/2012 09:20 AMPosted by Delargu
Same with gemming too, are blues spirit/int or just spirit because Int doesn't add mana anymore and just SP or has gemming not even changed and red slots are still Int gems, just you benefit from the SP alone instead of also getting more mana. I just find I'm having difficulty wrapping my head around it since coming back :P


Really, you get to choose the stats that you want in your gem slots, considering your personal raid makeup.

Do you want mastery? Well, your mastery only kicks in at low HP. How good are your co-healers at keeping people above 50% health?
How much spirit do you want? It doesn't really help your throughput, but it makes a big difference to your mana and your co-healers mana.
How valuable is crit? Here's where you may want to do some math; Crit helps your mana longevity and throughput, but it doesn't give your co-healers mana like spirit does.
Haste? The haste breakpoints for shamans aren't very meaningful. But you may decide one of them is important to you based on how you play.

If you want bigger heals, gem for Int, crit, and mastery. If you want more mana, gem for spirit and crit.
Edited by Heartsings on 12/27/2012 1:50 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
10545
stack dat crit
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90 Tauren Shaman
3255
Stat weights are largely situational and based on play style for Shamans it seems. The reason there isn't really a general consensus is because there isn't a definite "best" stat to stack after hitting the first haste soft cap (12.5%).

Above ~50% health crit is superior, and below ~50% mastery is superior. It is my opinion that in order to be the best healer for the range of situations you may face, your mastery and crit should be pretty balanced. Others have come to different conclusions.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12960
Crit is awesome for 10-man healing
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12/27/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Delargu
Now to my knowledge the lowest haste breakpoint you can hit is 871 and the highest is 3764, seems pretty straightforward but how does the addition from Ancestral Swiftness fit in? Do the breakpoints remain unchanged and I'm overthinking it, or does it alter what the breakpoints are and if that's the case... what are they?

I hit 5676 in my PvE gear.

Check this out, it will answer all your questions:
http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41

And this:
http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965
Edited by Gijira on 12/28/2012 12:34 PM PST
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So then according to that chart, a nice breakpoint would be to go for would be 3 764 assuming you have the 5% from raid and AS since you'd get both a HTT and HST tick. Right?
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I like that thought, I might try it out, balancing doesn't seem to shabby cause then you'd have decent above 50% crits throughout the fight and during mass damage phases, you'd have mastery to keep it together, I like it. :)
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90 Tauren Shaman
16540
12/28/2012 08:43 AMPosted by Kreyyn
stack dat crit


So wise.

<3
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90 Night Elf Druid
9645
I could've sworn HTT and HST ticks increase from haste was "broken". I don't recall seeing any fix since 5.1 either.

Should you do that 3764 cap for HST/HTT, I highly recommend actually testing it out before taking it for granted.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11640
Check this out, it will answer all your questions:
http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41

And this:
http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2965


ty!
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90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Do you want mastery? Well, your mastery only kicks in at low HP. How good are your co-healers at keeping people above 50% health?


Just wanted to point out- I think this changed sometime in Cata:

(from Jynus's post):

First of all, Mastery is not a bad stat, just bad shaman think it is. Here's the breakpoints where mastery is better than other stats.
When target is < 100% hp: Mastery is better than haste for HR, Riptide, UE
When target is < 80% hp: Mastery is better than crit for HR and CH
When target is < 62% hp: Mastery is better than crit for single target heals
When target is < 44% hp: Mastery is your strongest stat period

As I said, if I recall correctly, it starts taking effect at 70%.

http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2258
Edited by Jujubiju on 12/29/2012 6:17 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
17105
There is no such thing as a mastery breakpoint. The value of Mastery is completely linear. A lot of people seem to buy into this myth that you should reforge to 50% mastery and then reforge into other stats, but that is completely nonsensical. Either Mastery is better than other stats for the damage patterns that you are healing or it isn't. 50% mastery is exactly 2% better than 48% mastery.

As far as Crit vs Mastery, there are different thresholds for AoE healing compared to single target direct heals. The increased critical effect meta gem that everyone uses also impacts those thresholds. From a throughput perspective, Mastery becomes better than Crit on targets below 65% HP for AoE heals and 44% HP for single target direct heals assuming the Crit meta. Those thresholds are only looking at throughput; they are not taking into account the regen crit provides by increasing Resurgence returns. Therefore, the actual point at which Mastery beats Crit is actually at lower HP percentages once you consider that impact. I personally would rate the cut off points at closer to 55%/35% when you factor in the extra regen. From there, you just have to look at the HP patterns you are healing and determine if mastery is better. For most people, I suspect that Crit will beat Mastery because people just do not sit low enough long enough. If you raid with no Disc Priests or something, it might be a little different, but I just don't feel I get enough value from Mastery to make it worth stacking over Crit.

As far as Haste, the totem breakpoints are apparently still bugged and vary based on latency. Until they are confirmed fixed, it isn't worth gearing to totem based breakpoints. Haste as a standalone stat (i.e outside of hitting breakpoints) is by far our weakest secondary stat, because it increases output by directly draining mana, and our regen levels are just not at the level to handle that. On top of that, we get so much cast time reduction from Tidal Waves that we generally don't need it to have appropriate single target responsiveness.

Here are the options that you have for Haste gearing.

-871 haste (or as low as you can get it down - getting it that low will be impossible) with Ancestral Swiftness - This gives you an extra tick on Riptide, ELW, and Healing Rain
-2017 haste with Ancestral Swiftness not specced - Gives you the extra tick on Healing Rain and Riptide. You do not get the extra tick on ELW that you would by going to 871/Ancestral Swiftness
-3039 haste with Ancestral Swiftness not specced - Gives you the extra ELW tick on top of what you would get by going with 2017
The other haste breakpoints are 5600+ and generally not worth the loss of other stats/mana drain.

I think the first option is generally the best way to go. Going with the 2017 haste route means you lose 1-2% of your output from not getting the 5th ELW tick. Going with the 3039 haste route means that you lose a lot of Crit/Mastery for minimal gain. Elemental Mastery is a decent burst cooldown, but is also one that results in burning a lot of extra mana to get the most out of it. You also lose the emergency instant cast without taking Ancestral Swiftness, which can be a valuable save (or useful to instant cast a Healing Rain during Ascendance/to push AoE output).
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90 Blood Elf Mage
17065
12/29/2012 06:13 PMPosted by Jujubiju
Do you want mastery? Well, your mastery only kicks in at low HP. How good are your co-healers at keeping people above 50% health?


Just wanted to point out- I think this changed sometime in Cata:

(from Jynus's post):

First of all, Mastery is not a bad stat, just bad shaman think it is. Here's the breakpoints where mastery is better than other stats.
When target is < 100% hp: Mastery is better than haste for HR, Riptide, UE
When target is < 80% hp: Mastery is better than crit for HR and CH
When target is < 62% hp: Mastery is better than crit for single target heals
When target is < 44% hp: Mastery is your strongest stat period

As I said, if I recall correctly, it starts taking effect at 70%.

http://lifeingroup5.com/?p=2258


Jynus' post is very nice, and I have a feeling it is still close to being accurate. As you point out, however, it uses values from 4.1. I'd be curious to see this run again.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
HC
9585
I could've sworn HTT and HST ticks increase from haste was "broken". I don't recall seeing any fix since 5.1 either.


This. Also Elitist Jerks actually did a decent job with resto shaman theorycrafting from a numbers standpoint. It's been a while since I've visited the shaman page but at x % of health crit, haste, and mastery were all equivalent at .206 value or something similar (normalized values).

Each stat scales differently for each role. Since totems were broken I personally went AS with Spirit to comfort > haste to first bp > haste to comfort > mastery > crit. 10m HC raiding shaman; co-healers rdruid, hpal at the time. Between tank healing and how damage spiked on certain encounters I felt mastery tended to be more power of a stat over the course of fights.

Farm content crit will always be king.

I apologize for any grammatical errors. I just woke up.
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