In Raids, Resto Shaman, not so hot

100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845
Although crit is determined to be stronger, playstyle will mean more than anything. Healing is more than just math, you simply look at stat weights if you're worried and some determinations may be easy but some may not. When crit/mastery are so close for a class like Rshamans you have to make a choice.

Would you rather theoretically do better on meters, or save people from death opposed to a theoretical 5% chance to save their life. I go mastery because it's there when I need it, I don't care about meters and I don't care about theoretical improvements on two stats that are so close to each other. Maybe my mindset will help :).
Edited by Sensations on 1/3/2013 10:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
Actually, I agree about mastery being the go-to for progression, and I'm sorry if I was antagonistic.

Crit is still a fantastic stat for resto, but I agree that it's more useful for farm/easy content where damage is lower or more easily avoidable. Having said that, it's probably not worth reforging for it.

However, I think it's more important to actually acknowledge each side of the argument instead of just writing off crit as a non-optimal stat since that's not helpful to anyone (and depending on the situation, not correct).


I didn't think you were necessarily being antagonistic, I just hadn't actually explained my point at all.

However, I still don't see Crit outweighing Mastery in 99% of the situations I've seen. Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but I hate relying on RNG versus a dependable stat that will always behave precisely the same every time I use it.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17040
Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Am I going to have to start bossing people around again?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025
Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Am I going to have to start bossing people around again?


Sensations is more sensational than you. :P
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
Allow me to preface this by stating that your argument is very well constructed and correct in many ways. Some things I say from this point may appear snarky, but its entirely because I love the heat of a passionate debate.

Also, who the !@#$ is Sensations and what is with his gemming?

01/03/2013 09:44 PMPosted by Tiberria
Mastery only becomes better than Crit when you are healing a target that is at about 65% health or lower for AoE heals that do not proc Ancestral Awakening (for the most part everything except single target direct heals) and 35% health for single target direct heals.

Tiberria is correct here. Its been mathed, its been mapped, this is proven. Now, to separate 10man and 25man.
In 10man, as a Resto shaman this tier, the majority of your spells will be single target based. Very few fights allow for dedicated AoE healing for a majority of the fight (H Feng, H Gara'jal, H Dogs if melee heavy and chains, etc).
In 25man, frequently Resto Shaman are assigned raid healers, because of the mechanics of Chain Heal and Healing Rain.
As such, there is a significant difference between the types of healing being output by 10m and 25m Rshaman. As Tiberria explained above, and I reiterated, the math is done, and it is accepted that Mastery holds higher value for 25m Resto Shaman as opposed to Crit, and the reverse is true for 10m Resto Shaman.

Secondly, you explained that people are at lower health for longer when underhealing, thus adding to mastery values. Certainly true, but from the logs you linked there is only one parse that illustrates your argument (while all the parses are somewhat impressive in terms of performance, they are normal modes, and aren't being underhealed). Hereon, I'll be talking about the Blade Lord Heroic kill, which, as a two heal with Rshaman/Rdruid is pretty damn impressive. However, I cannot pull up the damage done graph, which I'm pretty sure will illustrate the following.
They pad like parse-hungry mother %^-*ers in phase two. I'm guessing (a better word would be extrapolating from what I know about the fight, and the break-down of healing makeup here, but it is in essence, a guess) that the dps slow down, or stop altogether sub-10% after the end swap and allow the healers to pad their metre.
That is why the parse looks very impressive. It isn't an advocation for mastery, because the only sources of damage on H Blade Lord are single target spike damage and Unseen Strike, which requires a quick top-up of the raid. So here it is, don't look at Sensations for H Blade Lord advice. With a Crit build, I reckon he would've smashed the metre even further.

Now, lets talk about why Crit is good.
Resurgence: Increased effective mana pool across the period of the fight. More mana equals more healing (simplification, I know, but lets not get caught up in the details). Only effects single target spells and Chain Heal.
This basically gives us a way to offset the cost of our heals, and is a good way to make RShaman scale with gear (T13, 45% crit, 100% uptime on Rain, good times, goooood times), the more Crit we have, the great our longevity.
In terms of throughput, as you explained, its unreliable. When it doesn't crit and you needed it too, often you'll need to cast again, but the idea of it is that when it does crit, you don't need to cast again, and you get a nice little mana bonus for being lucky.

01/03/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Sensations
Would you rather theoretically do better on meters, or save people from death opposed to a theoretical 5% chance to save their life.

Fair point, but you're assuming that A) The 'saving heal' saves them because you built for mastery, and not just because you did actually heal them, B) the bonus is more like 10% in current gear levels, C) The Crit-built healer's heal wouldn't save them if it doesn't crit.

01/03/2013 10:03 PMPosted by Sensations
I don't care about theoretical improvements on two stats

You should, because when you can get the theory to transfer perfectly into gameplay, you'll outperform your perception of when you played 'perfectly' before you understood/didn't ignore the theory.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17040
01/03/2013 10:45 PMPosted by Fluffy
Sensations is more sensational than you. :P


Quiet, peasant. Shaman legends are speaking.
Edited by Rain on 1/3/2013 10:47 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Am I going to have to start bossing people around again?


Sensations is more sensational than you. :P


Rain's guild, like mine, is more progressed than Sensations'
#justsayin
Edited by Convictfish on 1/3/2013 10:49 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12025


Sensations is more sensational than you. :P


Rain's guild, like mine, is more progressed than Sensations'
#justsayin


Clearly that is all that matters.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
17040
Sensations is an exceptional restoration shaman, and he is right on every account. Not only that, his gemming is exactly how he should be gemming.

Mastery is ridiculously reliable, and RIDICULOUSLY powerful. Crit is always entirely too RNG to matter. Even if there's a chance that sometimes it'll outperform other stats, the keyword is still "chance."

The only time any of this hits a bit of a gray area is when you split between 10 and 25, however the things that apply in 25 still apply in 10. From what I've seen of 10man heroic encounters, shaman can easily stack and abuse healing rain the same way their 25man counterparts do, so from that alone, mastery is the champion.

If mastery didn't do insane things with HR, you'd have an argument for crit.

PS: Resurgence isn't important.
Edited by Rain on 1/3/2013 10:56 PM PST
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845
In 10man, as a Resto shaman this tier, the majority of your spells will be single target based. Very few fights allow for dedicated AoE healing for a majority of the fight


My friend, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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96 Tauren Monk
16840
Okay. Posting on my shaman makes me miss it too much.
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90 Tauren Shaman
15790
01/03/2013 10:56 PMPosted by Sensations
In 10man, as a Resto shaman this tier, the majority of your spells will be single target based. Very few fights allow for dedicated AoE healing for a majority of the fight


My friend, you have no idea what you're talking about.


Lolk.

Lets break it down, just for 10man Heroic.

Stone Guards : Ranged heavy will be single target, melee heavy will be more AoE focussed.
Feng : AoE.
Garajal : AoE.
Spirt Kings H: I'd say, roughly equal on both.
Elegon : Both, emphasis on single target in P1+2. P3 is AoE.
Will : Depends on role. AoE for Raid Healing, Single target if dealing with the tanks.

Vizier: AoE in Force and Verve, single target in the rest.
Blade Lord: Entirely single target until P2.
Garalon: AoE.
Wind Lord: Single target, plus small AoE during RoB
Ambershaper: Both.
Grand Empress: Both.

Protectors: Single target, AoE in p3 (maybe....10% of the length of the fight)
Tsulong: Single target in Day, AoE in Night. Healing mattering much more during Day, for obvious reasons.
Lei Shi: Single target, only AoE during Get Away, which should be A) Extremely short or B)Cooldowned.
Sha of Fear: Single target. High tank dmg, Huddle dmg, Spray+Orb damage on tank.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
Sensations is an exceptional restoration shaman


Not arguing that. Arguing that he could be better.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
Mastery is ridiculously reliable, and RIDICULOUSLY powerful

Reliable, yes. Powerful? Ridiculously so? Not if you play with any even remotely good disc or paladin healers.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
"chance."

is irrelevant because were talking about averages here.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
however the things that apply in 25 still apply in 10. From what I've seen of 10man heroic encounters, shaman can easily stack and abuse healing rain the same way their 25man counterparts do

I'm just not even going to touch that. 25m and 10m Resto Shamans need to play differently.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
PS: Resurgence isn't important.

I'm sure that is a fun thing to say in your head when you're standing there oom.

01/03/2013 10:55 PMPosted by Rain
his gemming is exactly how he should be gemming.


You mean two different kind of Serpent's Eyes? Being unable to decide on his best secondary stat? Gemming flat for mastery in some slots, and hybrid with int in others? Okay...
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100 Orc Shaman
HC
16845
You mean two different kind of Serpent's Eyes? Being unable to decide on his best secondary stat? Gemming flat for mastery in some slots, and hybrid with int in others? Okay...


Might not want to make assumptions on what I'm thinking, only makes you look desperate in your argument.


Stone Guards : Ranged heavy will be single target, melee heavy will be more AoE focussed.
Feng : AoE.
Garajal : AoE.
Spirt Kings H: I'd say, roughly equal on both.
Elegon : Both, emphasis on single target in P1+2. P3 is AoE.
Will : Depends on role. AoE for Raid Healing, Single target if dealing with the tanks.

Vizier: AoE in Force and Verve, single target in the rest.
Blade Lord: Entirely single target until P2.
Garalon: AoE.
Wind Lord: Single target, plus small AoE during RoB
Ambershaper: Both.
Grand Empress: Both.

Protectors: Single target, AoE in p3 (maybe....10% of the length of the fight)
Tsulong: Single target in Day, AoE in Night. Healing mattering much more during Day, for obvious reasons.
Lei Shi: Single target, only AoE during Get Away, which should be A) Extremely short or B)Cooldowned.
Sha of Fear: Single target. High tank dmg, Huddle dmg, Spray+Orb damage on tank.


Are you a wizard? Not sure what you're trying to prove with this post.
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96 Tauren Monk
16840
Dolan.

You're alright in my books.

But this other guy is way too serious right now. All I'm saying is if you're going to use my progression to attack my friends, make sure I'm not siding with them first.

I'll get back to you about the rest tomorrow.
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