Mistweaver - Arena

90 Night Elf Monk
10685
So, I finally got off my !@# and got in a few games (about 60) in the last week and change and did some arena games as a Mistweaver. I think I have a much better grasp as to why you rarely see monks, especially Mistweavers, in the arena now though.

This is not a thread to $%^-* (also this post was written hastily so please forgive). It is simply some observations I made while playing and some feedback on potential changes. If you have a disagreement with a point I’ve made please do so constructively. And for those of you noticing my win/loss and rating so far I have played up to 2300 in 2’s, 2500 in 3’s and 2750 in 5’s in the past. I am not a great player but I do know at least the basics of the arena and comps and am somewhat analytical by nature (and trade).

Staying alive, as a Monk, was fairly easy. Using regular CD's (switching between diffuse magic or dampen harm depending on the teams comp) and healing spheres it was pretty hard for a team to train me for long. This did not happen much as I think it is common knowledge now that it is easier to shut down a Monk than it is to train them. However, keeping my teammates alive was another matter at times.

The problem seems to stem from the lack of resources. Monks are designed to use Chi and they gain chi either via Soothing Mist which is a 30% chance to gain a Chi during a tick or using other abilities like Renewing Mist, Expel Harm, Surging Mist, a talent called Chi Brew and of course striking your opponents with a Jab.

The problem with this setup is that Renewing Mist is very low throughput and on an 8 second timer, Expel Harm is a self-heal and useful for when you get targeted and blowing it for Chi just sucks...but you do it anyway and it's on a 15 second timer. Chi Brew gives you all 4 Chi but it's on a 1.5 minute timer. This leaves a player with Soothing Mist, a channeled spell and highlyRNG based way to get Chi and then there is Jab. So, you only have 2 guaranteed Chi within 15 seconds and Env Mist costs 3. Surging Mist is our flash heal spell and its instant if you cast Soothing Mist first…but it’s incredibly costly and you only want to cast it on somebody who could use the heal and not just use it to gain Chi.

Let’s analyze SM and Jab. Soothing Mist, first off, is RNG based making it pretty awful for healing in high burst situations like the arena. Also, since it's channeled, you can easily be locked out if you let it go. You WILL use it to make certain casts like Env Mist and Surging Mist instant but you'll only do that for a short while and maybe get 1 tick, maybe 2. So, as you can see, this is not an optimal setup for PvP healing where in PvE it's a bit more consistent and even interesting.

Jab is a great way to get Chi. However, what normally happens to a healer who runs out from behind a pillar into the open at non-optimal times? Bad things. If you don't have easy access to good LoS during certain situations you lose...but you also lose if you don't have resources. So a Monk healer always has to get a bit lucky in regards to their teams CC and Burst ability habits (and as I go up in rating and face better teams it will be less about luck). Sure, when you run in you can use good abilities like Spear Hand Strike (blank silence if hit in the front…not sure why Monks needed that but oh well), Paralyze and Leg Sweep. But exposing yourself to CC and silence when you don’t need to do any of those things is a bad move but sometimes you simply have to do it if you want to try and be prepared for the next burst setup.

And then there is Healing Sphere. It’s great for you and suboptimal for healing teammates. It does not generate any Chi at all but since it’s instant you don’t have to worry about longer silences. It’s a good spell and fairly unique but it should not be the main go to spell for staying alive in PvP outside of certain instances.
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
Potential Changes from my PoV: Not all of these should be put into place but they are all potential options to help Mistweavers in PvP.

1. Soothing Mist – PvP power should changing Soothing Mist slightly to always guarantee one Chi on the first tick with a 5-10 second CD between these procs. This would allow slightly less RNG Chi gain using an ability we have to have up, at least for a short while, to use instant casts.

2. Healing Sphere – This ability should gain you 1 Chi per use every 5-10 seconds. Again, less RNG and gives monks another option for Chi gain without exposing themselves too much.

3. 2 Piece change – Allows Env. Mist to be used while on the run. Perhaps this should be switched to 4 piece while our current 4 piece gets moved to 2 piece to avoid certain potential PvE issues on high movement fights. The current 2 piece is mostly worthless.

4. Give jab a 20-30 yard range. For the people concerned with RP it could be renamed to Wind Jab or something like that. This could also make PvE healing more interesting as well.

5. Surging Mist gives 2 Chi rather than 1. Perhaps this could be a set bonus or a bonus given to Monks who exceed a certain amount of PvP power.

I am sure there are other things that could potentially help Monks while not making them OP so please feel free to add or discuss. Thanks!
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
I guess I wrote this a bit too long :(
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1 Troll Shaman
0
1. Soothing Mist – PvP power should changing Soothing Mist slightly to always guarantee one Chi on the first tick with a 5-10 second CD between these procs. This would allow slightly less RNG Chi gain using an ability we have to have up, at least for a short while, to use instant casts.
To be honest CHI generation isn't really an issue as the amount of healing you can do with a small amount of CHI is quite good.

2. Healing Sphere – This ability should gain you 1 Chi per use every 5-10 seconds. Again, less RNG and gives monks another option for Chi gain without exposing themselves too much.
It would be nice for these to generate CHI, give there another reason to use them since they're already used far to much.

3. 2 Piece change – Allows Env. Mist to be used while on the run. Perhaps this should be switched to 4 piece while our current 4 piece gets moved to 2 piece to avoid certain potential PvE issues on high movement fights. The current 2 piece is mostly worthless.
Its not mostly worthless, I would just prefer it to be a little more powerful. Maybe make Enveloping Mist undispellable, or make it do 50% of the healing if it does get dispelled.

4. Give jab a 20-30 yard range. For the people concerned with RP it could be renamed to Wind Jab or something like that. This could also make PvE healing more interesting as well.
I would rather not.

5. Surging Mist gives 2 Chi rather than 1. Perhaps this could be a set bonus or a bonus given to Monks who exceed a certain amount of PvP power.
This should probably already supply two CHI, mostly due to how horribly expensive this ability happens to be. This ability requires you to spend 80k mana for one stack of tea and 4 CHI?
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1 Troll Shaman
0
The class is just far to easy to shutdown with the use of CC, the spec needs more protection against CC, as every melee DPS in this game aside from windwalker happen to have more protection against it than us.
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
Well, every healing class is supposed to be shut down. It's how you get kills and obviously how Blizzard wants things to work. The problem with Monks is that they are so easy to shut down and then due to bad Chi generation options our healing throughput is awful at certain times. I'd like to see that alleviated and help give at least more options for generation Chi in a PvP environment but not upset PvE too much (even though I wouldn't mind seeing changes their too).

I honestly like the ranged jab idea as it would allow us to get Chi on demand and allow the class to be played, at least somewhat, with how Blizzard wanted it to be played. Or Blizzard could do a bit re-design and simply make Monks really hard to shut down so that they can be out in the open all the time and eat CC's. Which I don't think is possible. Something like half duration on all CC, silences and stuns would make Fistweaving viable but it would be incredibly hard to balance and probably not the best option. I'd rather just see Chi generation options.

Another option for a 2 piece bonus would be make Env. Mist only cost 2 Chi and I like the idea of making it not dispellable too.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
I'd rather see them go the other way and make our tools in melee more rewarding (and amping our anti-CC tools slightly) rather than just making our stuff all ranged. Being a melee and a healer is Mistweaver's gimmick as a spec after all, taking that away just because it's an easier solution seems weak to me.

I'm surprised no one who ever complains about the spec brings up CJL though (actually since the PvP power nerf fistweaving damage feels low in general. The spec could probably use a global increase to its int>ap modifier). The damage on the spell feels really low in PvP. It eats a ton of mana.. and the knockback just doesn't work more than half the time.
Edited by Leviathan on 12/30/2012 11:18 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
I'd like to see fistweaving be more prevalent but we'd have to have tools similar to what resto druids used to have with the ability to break quite a bit of CC easily. That's just so damn hard to balance but it does sound infinitely more interesting and would fit with the class. But does Blizzard want to try and go that route or take the safe route in making us play somehow similar to what I proposed with fixing Chi generation and simply being a regular healer?

So far there has been very little shown as to what Blizzard is thinking about in regards to changes. Hopefully we get clued in soon as I'd like to see a light at the end of the tunnel. It's hard enough dealing with inconsistent resources in a raid but at least you are raid buffed and in raid gear which helps assist in resource generation...which you do not get in PvP.

Blizzard really should take a stand. Let us do fistweaving primarily and be a melee healer and play as if we were melee or water us down and make us like everyone else. I hope it's the former but if it can't be that I simply want the latter fixed.
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80 Human Priest
3225
There is so much wrong in this thread I don't know where to start. Instead of quote someone I will just bullet point a few things that were discussed.

#1. Chi generation isn't a problem in PvP. If you think Chi-generation is a issue in pvp then you are playing wrong, and need to play better.

#2. Fist Weaving will NEVER be practical or possible in pvp with the pvp power change. You can pretty much just forget about it. If you are going to ladder progression in arena, or rated BGs you just have to know that you are a ranged healer just like the rest. Fistweaving has been banished to pve only.

#3. Ranged Jab is a ridiculous idea, and again if you are struggling with chi-regeneration in pvp you are doing it wrong.

#4. None of our pvp issues in arena has to do with not being able to Fist Weave.

What we need...

a) Alternations to Surging Mist... It needs to cost less mana or return far more Chi

b) We need some protection against some forms of CC. I would say Fear/Stuns since that is the way they are going with WW. We need some type of fear protection.

Those two with the other changes listed on the PTR and we should be fine.
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
There is so much wrong in this thread I don't know where to start. Instead of quote someone I will just bullet point a few things that were discussed.

#1. Chi generation isn't a problem in PvP. If you think Chi-generation is a issue in pvp then you are playing wrong, and need to play better.

#2. Fist Weaving will NEVER be practical or possible in pvp with the pvp power change. You can pretty much just forget about it. If you are going to ladder progression in arena, or rated BGs you just have to know that you are a ranged healer just like the rest. Fistweaving has been banished to pve only.

#3. Ranged Jab is a ridiculous idea, and again if you are struggling with chi-regeneration in pvp you are doing it wrong.

#4. None of our pvp issues in arena has to do with not being able to Fist Weave.

What we need...

a) Alternations to Surging Mist... It needs to cost less mana or return far more Chi

b) We need some protection against some forms of CC. I would say Fear/Stuns since that is the way they are going with WW. We need some type of fear protection.

Those two with the other changes listed on the PTR and we should be fine.


So, how do you build up so much Chi and always have Chi ready when you need it? How do you not randomly build up Chi when your spells that generate them at a low cost are on CD? You were quick to criticize yet you offered 0 reasons as to why Chi generation is not a problem and state that myself and others are "playing wrong"...well how do you play right. Also, lets see your Monk that is doing oh so well in 3's or 5's.

If you're gaining Chi by just hitting Surging Mist constantly then you are doing it wrong since that will OOM us so fast and if we aren't playing a quick kill comp like KFC then we are an incredibly poor choice. You even mention that SM needs changes which, WOW, generate more Chi or costs less mana (which would also generate more Chi). But according to you Chi generation is not a problem. So which is it?

Also, there was a fairly articulate discussion as to what would need to happen to make fistweaving or at least being in the open to gain Chi relevant. Everyone is aware that it's an issue right now and now plausible so you brought nothing knew with that revelation. You're looking at the game as it currently is and not how it could be if changes were made.
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1 Troll Shaman
0
So, how do you build up so much Chi and always have Chi ready when you need it? How do you not randomly build up Chi when your spells that generate them at a low cost are on CD?
Mostly because I know when I spend two CHI on Chi Wave that they are roughly safe for the time being. Allowing me time to gain a couple more, not only that but Chi Brew and Power Strikes helps quite a bit generation wise.

12/31/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Battlehippy
Everyone is aware that it's an issue right now and now plausible so you brought nothing knew with that revelation.
Not being able to fistweave in PvP is an issue, but it is not that big of one... We can already heal very effectively ranged healing.

Also if by some means fistweaving did a lot of healing, it would still not be a very optimal way of doing it. Fistweaving leaves you open up to offensive CC because you have to be out in the open away from pillars to even do it.

Also if mana is a concern for you, then I don't understand why you're so bent on getting fistweaving back into PvP. Fistweaving takes more of a toll on your mana than ranged healing does currently in PvE.
Edited by Gasleak on 1/1/2013 10:07 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
01/01/2013 10:04 AMPosted by Gasleak
So, how do you build up so much Chi and always have Chi ready when you need it? How do you not randomly build up Chi when your spells that generate them at a low cost are on CD?
Mostly because I know when I spend two CHI on Chi Wave that they are roughly safe for the time being. Allowing me time to gain a couple more, not only that but Chi Brew and Power Strikes helps quite a bit generation wise.

12/31/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Battlehippy
Everyone is aware that it's an issue right now and now plausible so you brought nothing knew with that revelation.
Not being able to fistweave in PvP is an issue, but it is not that big of one... We can already heal very effectively ranged healing.

Also if by some means fistweaving did a lot of healing, it would still not be a very optimal way of doing it. Fistweaving leaves you open up to offensive CC because you have to be out in the open away from pillars to even do it.

Also if mana is a concern for you, then I don't understand why you're so bent on getting fistweaving back into PvP. Fistweaving takes more of a toll on your mana than ranged healing does currently in PvE.


I hate to point this out but you haven't really been reading/following along. Chi Wave does not make anybody "safe". It barely does any healing in regards to burst output/spikes and trying to get somebody back up if they survive the initial burst/your cc chain is much harder for a Monk who has to first gain resources OR blow tons and tons of mana compared to another healer who does not. Env Mist or SM are the only two abilities that can keep people alive in burst scenarios and one is heavily Chi restricted with no good way to gain Chi and the other is heavily mana intensive.

I am also not "hell bent" on fixing fistweaving. In fact, I pointed out quite a few things including alternatives and even said that it's probably not something that can even be balanced (hence, check out the alternatives I posted).

You should re-read the thread and I'd wager you'll go, "ohhhhhhhh" :)
Edited by Battlehippy on 1/1/2013 2:04 PM PST
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100 Undead Monk
9365
I dunno how I feel about this healing class. I feel the CC is a joke for us though. I get shut down so bad in Arena some times that its like the current setup blizzard has is wtf delete toon.

I had so much more control on my Disc priest. There is the next 5.2 patch though. More monk buffs on a massive scale. We shall see. =)
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210
Env Mist or SM are the only two abilities that can keep people alive in burst scenarios and one is heavily Chi restricted with no good way to gain Chi and the other is heavily mana intensive.


Are you not aware of Healing Sphere?
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90 Human Monk
12030
I dunno how I feel about this healing class. I feel the CC is a joke for us though. I get shut down so bad in Arena some times that its like the current setup blizzard has is wtf delete toon.

I had so much more control on my Disc priest. There is the next 5.2 patch though. More monk buffs on a massive scale. We shall see. =)


Most of the buffs are windwalker focussed, there is little that will be a game changer for mistweavers.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210

Most of the buffs are windwalker focussed, there is little that will be a game changer for mistweavers.


The range increase on Paralyze and it being undispellable should be nice. Life cocoon change is obviously awesome. Chi Wave change looks decent on paper. Double healing/double CD is mostly a wash but slightly better for burst. Making it chi independent helps burst too.

Xuen change might actually be a negative though if there's no way to force him to change targets after the fact.

Hopefully Blizzard can be convinced to extend Nimble Brew to Mistweaver. If they do that they've covered a lot of the main issues. Only other things I can think of are weird details that I personally think would be cool but I'm sure a lot of people here don't care about and probably won't ever happen anyways(like making CJL more responsive, making our heals Frost rather than Nature, and buffing the SP>AP on SotWS)
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100 Undead Monk
9365
I can't begin to tell you how many times Mages would spell steal Life Cocoon a 350k+ absorb bubble.

Or how many times Paralysis was simply dispelled.

Also the changes for Zen Sphere and Chi Wave might actually make them work differently with Arena healing choices. [more options] I'll have more chi to spend on other abilities.

And Xuen is going to be more focused on target. Which means no more crazy cat switching targets for no reason like he does now. And I don't have to attack first before the cat will do anything.

4 things getting fixed in 5.2 for Mistweavers.
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80 Human Priest
3225
If you're gaining Chi by just hitting Surging Mist constantly then you are doing it wrong since that will OOM us so fast and if we aren't playing a quick kill comp like KFC then we are an incredibly poor choice. You even mention that SM needs changes which, WOW, generate more Chi or costs less mana (which would also generate more Chi). But according to you Chi generation is not a problem. So which is it?


My post about Soothing Mist was mostly talking about how to offset or lessen the mana cost/need for Surging Mist.

Also yes I have a macro to soothing mist/stop casting and I spam it. I get chi faster then I can spend it, and no I don't run out of mana doing it. If that is running you out of mana you need to stack more spirit.. /shrug
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90 Night Elf Monk
10685
01/02/2013 10:32 AMPosted by Leviathan
Env Mist or SM are the only two abilities that can keep people alive in burst scenarios and one is heavily Chi restricted with no good way to gain Chi and the other is heavily mana intensive.


Are you not aware of Healing Sphere?


I covered that in detail so you may want to re-read what was actually posted. Also, it's incredibly awkward to use, generates no Chi and can heal the wrong person if you're players happen to be near each other. It's not an awful tool but it's so awkward to use that it doesn't lend itself well to an arena environment.

01/02/2013 08:05 PMPosted by Primiez
If you're gaining Chi by just hitting Surging Mist constantly then you are doing it wrong since that will OOM us so fast and if we aren't playing a quick kill comp like KFC then we are an incredibly poor choice. You even mention that SM needs changes which, WOW, generate more Chi or costs less mana (which would also generate more Chi). But according to you Chi generation is not a problem. So which is it?


My post about Soothing Mist was mostly talking about how to offset or lessen the mana cost/need for Surging Mist.

Also yes I have a macro to soothing mist/stop casting and I spam it. I get chi faster then I can spend it, and no I don't run out of mana doing it. If that is running you out of mana you need to stack more spirit.. /shrug


My response was very clearly directed towards your comments concerningSurging Mist and not Soothing Mist (you know the difference, right?). Soothing Mist ticks for 7500-8000 on people who have health pools nearing 400k and can lose half of that health in a couple globals. There is only a 30% chance to generate Chi from a single tick and you don't have all the haste you get in a PvE environment so you can cast all the way through twice and never gain a single Chi. That's pretty common and there is no guarantees like, "you will always gain at least one Chi every other tick" or something like that. It's pure RNG.

You are not "swimming" in Chi by using Soothing Mist even in a PvE environment. And if you are sitting there casting Soothing Mist for longer than it takes to get off an instant cast or two then you're doing it wrong.

I am having a hard time believing you even play a Monk and you have yet to post on it despite posting on other characters. Please, post on your Monk Prim. I had to deal with you while you were a DK and it seems that your contrary nature is coming through yet again and this time concerning a class you don't appear to even play.
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88 Pandaren Monk
5130
I am considering playing Mistweaver for 5.2
What do you guys think about the new Ptr notes?

Jab now costs 4.5% (was 4%) of base mana to use.
Eminence now heals for 25% of the damage done (was 50%).
Serpent's Zeal heals for 12.5% per stack of damage done (was 25%).
Teachings of the Monastery now provides additional benefits.
Tiger Palm damage increased by 100% and restores 1% of max mana.
Crackling Jade Lightning damage increased by 100%.
Blackout Kick now hits 4 additional nearby targets for 50% damage.
Muscle Memory: A new Mistweaver passive activated by a successful Jab or damaging at least 3 enemies with Spinning Crane Kick. Upon gaining Muscle Memory, the Monk's next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick deals 150% more damage.


  • Does this make punching and kicking viable for healing?
  • Is mastery good for healing when your locke down?
  • Edited by Mizukåge on 2/15/2013 9:56 AM PST
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