Unholy Death Knights: Mechanical Shortcomings

100 Draenei Death Knight
9160
You are way overthinking this.... There are way more things to consider to value the worthiness of Blood Boil Spreading diseases to a new target instead of plague strike.. While plague strike is single target, blood boil (at the minimum) hits 2... There is also refreshing subsequent diseases of those other diseases on other targets other than the primary... Not to mention availability of Death runes prior to the target switching which makes it even difficult compare Blood Boil and Plague Strike

This is why calculating rune desyncing for targets more than 2 is not worth the pain.


Obviously you are taking roiling blood. Blood boil doesn't spread diseases, pestilence does.

Using Roiling Blood to refresh disease can lead to sub par (weak) diseases being spread if your not careful about it, considering blood boil is our main AoE attack. In 5.2, in AoE situation, your trinkets will proc, you'll hit plague strike (You'll always have that unholy rune) then Pestilence. All the mobs will have buffed disease and your free to Blod Boil to your hearts content. Roiling Blood is a DPS loss.


In an AoE situation, why would Roiling Blood be a dps loss? As long as you re-apply your diseases (when everything is up) to the closest target to you and then Blood Boil it, it should send all your super diseases to everything. Further Blood Boiling should keep the super diseases up regardless of whether stuff is up or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is how Pestilence works? It should send out the current state of the diseases to everything else rather than re-snapshot.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
16140
Pestilince (and Roiling Blood) will spread diseases onto targets in range using your current stats when it is cast. The diseases on the target you are using to Pestilence/Roiling Blood on don't matter. The original target will retain whatever diseases it had when initially applied, but the targets hit by Pestilence will have an updated snapshot.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
I agree with your base number, the pet is indeed roughly 15% of total damage.

But then you say we hit 93% upon starting a fight, and that is not true. You can't just divide 15 by two. Dark Transformation itself has a 68% total uptime, so you could estimate starting out at 90%, but each stack of Shadow Infusion ramps up damage as well. The actual number is more like 88-89%, and it can take an extremely long time to complete that initial rampup to 100%. Compare that to frost, which takes 1-2 GCDs.

Ghoul rampup isn't terrible on boss encounters, because you can use a 5 minute cooldown (ERW) to speed it up, and the free Gargoyle in 5.2 will help a great deal there too.

It is terrible on every non-boss encounter. Every trash pull, and every mob while doing the 1000s of dailies we're expected to do these days. You pull the mob and by the time your ghoul is ramped up it's already dead. And no, chain-pulling is not an adequate answer to that problem. You often can't do that. It makes playing Unholy a total bummer.

You're correct that the pet can ignore encounter mechanics that are supposed to impact melee. That's a major reason why Unholy was OP in 4.0 and immediately heavily nerfed. It was just tuned too high. It's not tuned too high now, that's for sure, and I don't see why that numbers issue is pertinent to the mechanics issue we're discussing.

Lastly, DW Frost does dramatically more damage at range than Unholy, assuming you're out of Blood Boil range-- which you usually are.

Shadow Infusion needs to be dropped to 3 stacks. Dark Transformation duration should be dropped to 18s to compensate. This is not intended to be a DPS buff. It's a mechanics fix.
Edited by Slant on 12/23/2012 9:30 PM PST
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
FBI
14175
At this point, I'd just be happy if Shadow Infusion stacks lasted longer so we could carry them between pulls- say, 5 minutes instead of 30 seconds. I can deal with having to cast 5 Death Coils in the heat of the boss fight, but I cannot express how frustrating it is to have the stacks vanish literally seconds before the next pull because we had to pause for someone to catch their breath.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
But then you say we hit 93% upon starting a fight, and that is not true. You can't just divide 15 by two. Dark Transformation itself has a 68% total uptime, so you could estimate starting out at 90%, but each stack of Shadow Infusion ramps up damage as well. The actual number is more like 88-89%, and it can take an extremely long time to complete that initial rampup to 100%. Compare that to frost, which takes 1-2 GCDs.

I didn't simply divide it by two, I looked at the average damage inflicted by the ghoul while transformed and the average damage inflicted by the ghoul while not transformed. It's just slightly under half. Given that at the start of a fight we're running with a full rune set, we can quite quickly get two stacks of SI, which helps the ghoul's damage some.

It is terrible on every non-boss encounter. Every trash pull, and every mob while doing the 1000s of dailies we're expected to do these days. You pull the mob and by the time your ghoul is ramped up it's already dead. And no, chain-pulling is not an adequate answer to that problem. You often can't do that. It makes playing Unholy a total bummer.

Not going to lie, I usually just ignore my ghoul's status during trash mobs and dailies. He gets in two swings most of the time and is such a small part of my damage that I just don't stress it. If he's transformed, great, if he's not, well, that sucks. It's definitely not ideal, but we're not the only class that has to deal with it: Feral Druids and Retribution Paladins both have to deal with stupid mandatory deal-more-damage buffs as well.

Plus, on raid trash, we already perform really well due to disease AoE, so the ghoul drops even more in terms of contribution to our DPS. On heroic trash the tank should be winning DPS anyway.

You're correct that the pet can ignore encounter mechanics that are supposed to impact melee. That's a major reason why Unholy was OP in 4.0 and immediately heavily nerfed. It was just tuned too high. It's not tuned too high now, that's for sure, and I don't see why that numbers issue is pertinent to the mechanics issue we're discussing.

It was more a comment that ranged is intentionally tuned to be weaker than melee because melee has less uptime, and that Death Knights almost have more in common with a ranged class than a melee one.

12/23/2012 09:22 PMPosted by Slant
Lastly, DW Frost does dramatically more damage at range than Unholy, assuming you're out of Blood Boil range-- which you usually are.

Yeah, probably right. I keep forgetting that unholy doesn't have permanent blood -> death rune conversions when I theorycraft.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
21205
Our addon is now officially up on Curse!

Here it is: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/dkdots

Full credit goes to Simu of EU-Grim Batol

Demonstration of the addon in action here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5JqQ1Sja-U
(Located near the upper right corner of fletchi's Rune bar)
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
12/24/2012 01:34 AMPosted by Krinu
I usually just ignore my ghoul's status during trash mobs and dailies. He gets in two swings most of the time and is such a small part of my damage that I just don't stress it. If he's transformed, great, if he's not, well, that sucks. It's definitely not ideal, but we're not the only class that has to deal with it: Feral Druids and Retribution Paladins both have to deal with stupid mandatory deal-more-damage buffs as well.

Yes, exactly. It's a total bummer. Why does the core spec mechanic have to feel like such a bummer/

Ferals have their own major problems that makes the spec much worse than Unholy, but they can put up Savage Roar with zero combo points. Ret and rogues can put up Inquisition and Slice and Dice respectively with 2 GCDs. Ret can even do it at range. So can rogues, actually, if they talent into Shuriken, which many will be doing in 5.2.

Savage Roar/Inquisition/Slice and Dice is either active or it's not. There's no need to stack a secondary buff 5 times then spend more resources converting that into the primary buff. You can activate it immediately upon the pull. In other words, I don't really feel they're strong comparisons to Unholy's rampup.

The only true analogue to Unholy Rampup is Combat's Bandit's Guile, which rogues despise. But at least Bandit's Guile is completely passive so you don't have to think about it all the time.
Edited by Slant on 12/24/2012 9:04 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Death Knight
8915
The only true analogue to Unholy Rampup is Combat's Bandit's Guile, which rogues despise. But at least Bandit's Guile is completely passive so you don't have to think about it all the time.


Actually you are wrong, rogues do have to think about it all the time. One of the hallmarks of a good combat rogue is using cds at proper times whether during p3 BG or double proc enchants/trinkets. It's pretty much the core of eeking out as much dps as possible for them.

Back on topic, I really do think you are overstating the ramp up issue, if you have to bring in trash to the argument as a reason why ramp up is bad, then it isn't really that bad. Boss fights are what matters not the trash in between, as I stated before with Gary being free in 5.2 our ramp up will be a lot better during the start of the fight which is really the only time it should feel slow under proper play conditions.

edit: I take that back Trash is important under the scenario of a Challenge Mode dungeon, however as I am in no way experienced with that content and have no idea how well unholy performs in that specific arena I will refrain from commenting on that. However I will say that bilzzard in the past has been perfectly fine with certain specs not performing so well in certain venues. i.e. Fury in arena. So I wouldn't expect them to change a core mechanic just because we are subpar for that one particular area of the game.
Edited by Stasis on 12/24/2012 10:43 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
I should have said they don't have to actively manage it. Anyway, like I said rogues despise Bandit's Guile, so it's not exactly what we should aspire to.

This isn't Cataclysm. You're constantly forced to do dailies. They're a major part of the game now, whether you like it or not (and I don't like it). Edit: And like you said, challenge modes are endgame content also.

The free gargoyle will help a lot on bosses. It doesn't help on anything else, where you wouldn't use the gargoyle anyway.

The ghoul rampup takes too long. It needs to be shorter. I would find it hard to believe that a DK would argue against this, but these are the Blizzard forums... I could say the sun rises in the east and someone would argue against it.

And again, I must stress that I am not arguing for a DPS buff. This is not about pure performance. It's about the gameplay. It's about making Unholy feel better.
Edited by Slant on 12/24/2012 10:47 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Undead Death Knight
8915
Ah there we go, dailies. You are not forced to do them at all, hell I've only really done the klaxxi dailies thus far and that is because I wanted to get all the lore bits out of them (plus I'm a weapon collector \o/ ) and so what if we hardly get DT up in a daily zone stuff dies in like 3 globals anyway with the exception of the "boss" mobs. If that's your complaint we might as well have perma supahtimmy and cut SI out of the picture entirely (note: Pls don't do that blizz!!!)
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
So you give up the three coins per week? Clearly you're a very casual player, and that is perfectly fine. Your opinion is just as valid as a more serious player's. But you must understand that many players do feel compelled to do dailies.

Also, I see you're posting on an 86. Do you have a level 90 DK? If not, please level up so you can actually speak from experience.
Edited by Slant on 12/24/2012 10:57 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Death Knight
8930
Complaining about rampup while questing is akin to complaining about class disparity in duels...

Go frost if it bothers you that much just like every healer switches to a dps spec to do dailies...
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
12/24/2012 10:56 AMPosted by Ellianne
Complaining about rampup while questing is akin to complaining about class disparity in duels...

Nope. Solo content is part of the endgame now. Duels are not.
Edited by Slant on 12/24/2012 10:58 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Death Knight
8930
I'll direct you to this quote -
That is exactly what I am saying, I wish to go dungeons, raids. You say more content is available out side of these. Where?

Scenario - no healer is need.
Daily Quests - impossible as healer.

Tell me how you wish me to play your game please?
You have two talent specializations. Why not have one for DPS? Even if it's a different healing spec, do you really need it at every single moment of the day? It's your choice to go with two healing specs, and that obviously comes with a downside (just as a tank that decides to go with two different tanking specs and argues his DPS is low on that content).

Proceeding to argue that because you run with a dual healing spec there's no content you can do is not going to get you very far because the answer is simple: use a DPS spec for that content.
Reply Quote
90 Undead Death Knight
8915
So you give up the three coins per week? Clearly you're a very casual player, and that is perfectly fine. Your opinion is just as valid as a more serious player's. But you must understand that many players do feel compelled to do dailies.

Also, I see you're posting on an 86. Do you have a level 90 DK? If not, please level up so you can actually speak from experience.


I never said I give up on 3 coins a week, one faction is more than enough to garner the 90 lessers (also compelled != forced). Yes I am a fairly casual player at this point as I am unable to raid as much as I used to due to work (graveyard shift blargh....), also good job noticing I'm posting on a level 86, HOWEVER, as unholy really hasn't changed all that much from cataclysm (don't try to argue that, it really hasn't other than the addition of soul reaper) I can safely say I have plenty of experience at the spec and DKs in general having played every role for nearly every fight as a dk since wrath.

Now back to the issue at hand, as elliane said trying to use dailies or any pve content outside of world bosses to a raid environment is akin to arguing pvp balance in duels it isn't going to get you anywhere. What you are asking for (3 stack DT with reduced duration iirc) would smooth out our cycle slightly but would also be a detriment imo. It would become far too easy (yes the spec is fairly easy anyway) to maintain the buff at it's maximum potential. It would lower the skill cap tremendously which is something I definitely DO NOT approve of. Part of the reason I enjoy the spec so much is the management of RP in order to maintain maximum uptime for DT I enjoy the way that feels.
Edited by Stasis on 12/24/2012 11:16 AM PST
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Death Knight
16850
Dailies suck. I do as few as possible now since I have like 10 weeks+ worth of tokens. Honestly though if you CANT do dailies as unholy you are bad.
Are they easier for frost? Sure, and if it bugs you that much switch specs for a second.
I have a blood OS for use in soloing rare spawns. I don't expect my specs to do the same thing.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
12/24/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Stasis
as elliane said trying to use dailies or any pve content outside of world bosses to a raid environment is akin to arguing pvp balance in duels it isn't going to get you anywhere.

This is wrong, and not what that quote says.
Edited by Slant on 12/24/2012 12:35 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Troll Death Knight
8930
I can't 1 shot everything as DW. Does that make me complain? Nope.

Seriously this is a dumb thing to argue about and has 0 relevance on UH spec mechanics at all.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5190
12/24/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Ellianne
I can't 1 shot everything as DW. Does that make me complain? Nope.

This is an example of a "straw man" argument. Please, at least try to argue in good faith.

Seriously this is a dumb thing to argue about and has 0 relevance on UH spec mechanics at all.

I disagree. Excessive rampup on everything but boss fights where you can use ERW is completely relevant. If you feel only boss fights matter, that is your point of view and you are entitled to it. Blithely dismissing other points of view is not a legitimate response.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
7780
The ghoul rampup takes too long. It needs to be shorter. I would find it hard to believe that a DK would argue against this, but these are the Blizzard forums... I could say the sun rises in the east and someone would argue against it.

And again, I must stress that I am not arguing for a DPS buff. This is not about pure performance. It's about the gameplay. It's about making Unholy feel better.


Sorry, I disagree. I have no problem with the ghoul rampup time. I'd be severely annoyed
if it became something that lasted shorter and had to be cast more often. I prefer to spend my gcd's hitting damaging abilities, and seeing damaging abilities. I'm not a fan of spending UH runes even more often on transformation, and having the ghoul require more attention.

Just stating my opinion.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]