Unholy Death Knights: Mechanical Shortcomings

90 Human Death Knight
10680
12/27/2012 03:22 PMPosted by Slant
Soul Reaper cost is such a small issue, now that it costs a signature rune. That was a major win for us during beta, second only to putting all DKs on a 1s GCD, and it seems ungrateful to complain about it now, particularly when there are so many other higher-priority problems. But of course that's just my opinion.


12/27/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Rothulean
The Soul Reaper thing was indeed a huge victory and works perfectly for almost all specs. I agree that it would be nice if 2h frost could get an adjustment to offset SR's rotational disruption. Overall though, that change was a fantastic one.


My issue with Soul Reaper is not the cost it is the ability itself. Removing the cost was just a proposed fix to, imo, make it more fun.
For 2 out of 3 specs all soul reaper is a howling blast/scourge strike that is delayed and does more damage and for the 3rd spec buggers up it's 'rotation'. You'd get the same effect by making it buff your next HB/ScS to do more damage. During the execute phase all you're doing is pressing 4 instead of 2 (or w/e) every 6s. It adds no gameplay; it's just an additional bind.
Soul Reaper would be vastly improved it was an ability you used 'in addition' to your normal system as opposed to 'instead of'. Hence I suggest cost removal - all removing the cost really does is gains you an additional oblit/hb/ScS every 6s and slightly better uptime, blizz could nerf the damage to compensate. So long as it's 'in addition' and not 'instead of' it would still be used.

I apologise for derailing the thread, this is the last I'll post on the issue.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740

For 2 out of 3 specs all soul reaper is a howling blast/scourge strike that is delayed and does more damage and for the 3rd spec buggers up it's 'rotation'. You'd get the same effect by making it buff your next HB/ScS to do more damage.


Ill bet you could say that about a few executes. Warrior execute comes to mind.
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100 Human Death Knight
15225
I kind of like that the priority list changes at 35% ish health. Granted soul reaper works a bit better for unholy as unholy uses 1 rune abilities for the most part. Maybe a small change for frost is in order, but I like it.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
12/27/2012 10:36 PMPosted by Hemalador
I kind of like that the priority list changes at 35% ish health. Granted soul reaper works a bit better for unholy as unholy uses 1 rune abilities for the most part. Maybe a small change for frost is in order, but I like it.


I somehow managed to end up with 2 UH runes tonight at one point because of it. No frost, no death. 2 uh.

Not. a. fan.

Small change for 2h frost would be a huge qol change.
Edited by Ghatok on 12/27/2012 11:20 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Sorry, didn't mean to kill discussion.

Where are we at with unholy?

/feels bad
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100 Orc Death Knight
17870
12/27/2012 08:47 PMPosted by Holsety
Soul Reaper cost is such a small issue, now that it costs a signature rune. That was a major win for us during beta, second only to putting all DKs on a 1s GCD, and it seems ungrateful to complain about it now, particularly when there are so many other higher-priority problems. But of course that's just my opinion.


The Soul Reaper thing was indeed a huge victory and works perfectly for almost all specs. I agree that it would be nice if 2h frost could get an adjustment to offset SR's rotational disruption. Overall though, that change was a fantastic one.


My issue with Soul Reaper is not the cost it is the ability itself. Removing the cost was just a proposed fix to, imo, make it more fun.
For 2 out of 3 specs all soul reaper is a howling blast/scourge strike that is delayed and does more damage and for the 3rd spec buggers up it's 'rotation'. You'd get the same effect by making it buff your next HB/ScS to do more damage. During the execute phase all you're doing is pressing 4 instead of 2 (or w/e) every 6s. It adds no gameplay; it's just an additional bind.
Soul Reaper would be vastly improved it was an ability you used 'in addition' to your normal system as opposed to 'instead of'. Hence I suggest cost removal - all removing the cost really does is gains you an additional oblit/hb/ScS every 6s and slightly better uptime, blizz could nerf the damage to compensate. So long as it's 'in addition' and not 'instead of' it would still be used.

I apologise for derailing the thread, this is the last I'll post on the issue.


Its an additional bind in the same way that killshot, execute, dispatch and probably some others are additional binds. Hell, I would argue that ours is actually the most complelling because it has effects that the others don't. ( Usable outside execute range if timed well and others.)
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100 Draenei Shaman
5440
Frost needed the extra keybind, IMO. Soul Reaper cost is only an issue for 2H frost, and even there, like I said, RE or BT will give another rune to pair with the U to Obliterate most of the time.

And of course this is supposed to be an Unholy thread. Unholy didn't need an extra keybind, but hey-- we're losing one in 5.2, since there won't be any reason to keybind Icy Touch (outside of PvP for the dispel, anyway), so it all evens out in the end.

The 5.2 changes address most of Unholy's issues; how well they address them remains to be seen since they aren't on PTR yet. But on paper, they're promising. They don't address the pet rampup time, but with all the pushback in this thread that's unlikely to happen now.

Anyway, we really need to see these changes on the PTR to provide more useful feedback.
Edited by Slant on 12/28/2012 3:18 PM PST
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100 Orc Death Knight
17870
Frost needed the extra keybind, IMO. Soul Reaper cost is only an issue for 2H frost, and even there, like I said, RE or BT will give another rune to pair with the U to Obliterate most of the time.

And of course this is supposed to be an Unholy thread. Unholy didn't need an extra keybind, but hey-- we're losing one in 5.2, since there won't be any reason to keybind Icy Touch (outside of PvP for the dispel, anyway).

The 5.2 changes address most of Unholy's issues; how well they address them remains to be seen since they aren't on PTR yet. But on paper, they're promising. They don't address the pet rampup time, but with all the pushback in this thread that's unlikely to happen now.

Anyway, we really need to see these changes on the PTR to provide more useful feedback.


I'm actually of differing opinion, I think unholy DID need another keybind. While we did have alot of buttons to begin with, having to use 3 unholy rune attacks below 35% is the kind of complexity that we've been lacking. For the most part, you didn't really need to look at your resources before mop. It was a cycle of 2 FS, 8 SS and some number of death coils. Really you could get by almost entirely with looking at runic power.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5440
Well that is a matter of opinion. IMO specs play best with around 5 major "rotational" keybinds. ScS, IT, PS, FeS, DC, DT is 6. Adding SR makes 7. Not a big deal, but 1 more keybinds than what I personally feel to be ideal.

For Frost, OB, HB, PS, FS is 4. Adding SR is 5.

And you can add 1 or 2 to both of them if you have Outbreak and maybe Death Strike keybound separately rather than macroed into other abilities. But that would be crazy!

If you think about it, this applies to most specs in the game. The devs try to keep it to around 5. They actually talked about this a couple years back, the blue quote is out there somewhere.
Edited by Slant on 12/28/2012 3:24 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
15225
On keybinds, Unholy seems to have a !@#$load of them. The basic rotation, defensive spells (lol) heals, pet binds, cooldowns, AoE binds, several way to apply diseases, then there all the ones you need for PvP. Frost doesn't really have this issue.

Having both CoI and IT seems a bit silly (PvP mostly, but there are fights where CoI slow is handy, i.e. you don't apply FF with IT in Will of the Emp), why can't these abilities be merged together? Put CoI on reaping and remove IT from the game. Don't give CoI the IT glyph, maybe give CoI a damage component. Seems overkill to have both these abilities keybound, but in 5.2 especially for PvP you will need to.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
12/28/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Hemalador
Put CoI on reaping and remove IT from the game.


I think it makes more sense to do it the other way: remove Chains of Ice and give the slow component to Icy Touch.
Edited by Rothulean on 12/28/2012 4:56 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Re: Keybinds,

As frost, I bind 28 keys. I seem to remember as unholy I bound literally 1 more - making it 29.

Within a 120 second period, for single target, excluding army and erw (so not counting the beginning of a boss fight, which is my fav, due to army + pof giving me a lot of RP, and putting just enough runes on CD that if I can squeeze off 1 fs just before they regen...) I find I use about 10, give or take a few.

It's enough that I'm hoping we get no more keybinds.
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90 Human Death Knight
10680
Deathknights are pretty ok on keybinds. Don't really have the issues that some classes (hunters) do.

Its an additional bind in the same way that killshot, execute, dispatch and probably some others are additional binds. Hell, I would argue that ours is actually the most complelling because it has effects that the others don't. ( Usable outside execute range if timed well and others.)


Kill shot and SW:D are both additions to the usual rotation. Execute becomes more of the focus. Dispatch is the only one I would compare directly to soul reaper as an 'instead of' button and I don't like it either.

As for pruning abilities I would remove pestilence personally and make roiling blood baseline. Or as previously suggested; roiling blood goes to blood baseline, howling blast causes FF and spreads BP and pestilence becomes a unholy specific disease spreader and aoe.
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100 Human Death Knight
15225
12/28/2012 04:56 PMPosted by Rothulean
I think it makes more sense to do it the other way: remove Chains of Ice and give the slow component to Icy Touch.


But I like the spell visual!!!!!

Yeah I've heard Hunters have a lot, still, I think any pruning that can be done without inturrupting the class would be a good thing.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16140
12/28/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Slant
And of course this is supposed to be an Unholy thread. Unholy didn't need an extra keybind, but hey-- we're losing one in 5.2, since there won't be any reason to keybind Icy Touch (outside of PvP for the dispel, anyway), so it all evens out in the end.


We won't be removing a keybind. Icy Touch will be used to generate death runes during AoE. Additionally, it will have niche usage when you can't DPS from melee range because of some mechanic and want to toss out some DPS (similarly why I keep Blood Boil bound as Frost, to bring Lei Shi out of Hide).
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100 Draenei Shaman
5440
Actually, I plan to macro it with festering strike, like so.

/use [mod] Icy Touch; Festering Strike

So when I want to AE, I run in, plague strike, pestilence, blood boil, then hit ALT-4 (it's on 4) twice to icy touch twice. But your point is made, we can't take it off our bars completely.

I'm not entirely happy that the only reason to use Icy Touch is because it's on Reaping, and it's not the solution I would have chosen or expected the devs to choose as it's not exactly elegant, but it's certainly better than using Festering Strike to AE.
Edited by Slant on 12/28/2012 7:51 PM PST
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90 Undead Death Knight
8890
As far as the changes are concerned, none of it truly addresses as to what Unholy is supposed to do in a Spiritbinder/Tsulong scenario where there are tons of low health adds that need to die fast. Even with the larger adds, it takes us a while to get to full speed, and more often than not, it's dead before we're "ramped up."

I'm not saying we need to be zomg uber pwning. But as of now, I dread being caught dead specced Unholy in these fights. The feeling of utility depending on spec in these fights is chasms apart. It's just too easy for those of us who have the luxury of dual speccing Unholy/Frost to swap for these types of (for lack of a better term) gimmicks.

12/28/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Nangz
It was a cycle of 2 FS, 8 SS and some number of death coils.


Eight. Eight? Eight?! /apoplexy. I am now truly thankful that I bailed on Cata.
It is truly beyond me how some of my colleagues here can enjoy pressing the same button so many times in a row. Why not just have auto-attack take care of it at that point?
Edited by Skaven on 12/29/2012 1:46 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
16015
Eight. Eight? Eight?! /apoplexy. I am now truly thankful that I bailed on Cata.
It is truly beyond me how some of my colleagues here can enjoy pressing the same button so many times in a row. Why not just have auto-attack take care of it at that point?

Eh. Not "in a row".
Outbreak-SS-FeS-SS-FeS-DC-HoW-DC-SS-SS-SS-DC-SS-SS-SS-DC-SS-FeS-DC, etc.
It's actually got a bit more variety to it than the Retadin's basic rotation, CS-CS-CS-TV, though I admit I'm not familiar enough with that class for all of the nuances.
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
Please don't jump on me for making a bad suggestion (Some Like A Nasty Tussle sometimes, it seems) but what if Timmy was just perma-transformed and DT done away with?

Dmg nerfed appropriately to compensate, of course.

Then there's that stupid pvp again too...
Edited by Ghatok on 12/29/2012 10:00 AM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
22550
12/29/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Ghatok
what if Timmy was just perma-transformed and DT done away with?


The whole point of the mechanic was to incorporate a synergy between the Unholy DK's own attacks and the ghoul. What you're suggesting essentially takes us back to the WoTLK days where the ghoul could pretty much be ignored (positioning and AI tricks aside) and felt more like a randomly stuck in idea to the tree.

Even if we assume that Blizzard would consider such an option, it's definitely not one we can expect to see implemented in Mists. Remember, they want to minimise mechanics changes as much as they can.
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