Unholy Death Knights: Mechanical Shortcomings

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
12/21/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Slant
For non Unholy-specific stuff, Conversion now only costs 5RP per second and Death Siphon healing was increased by 50%. Conversion unfortunately still disables other forms of RP generation, even though there's no reason to leave it in with the new Frost presence.

I don't think it's there to limit Frost any more, it's there to keep Blood reined in.

Im interested to see how much of a buff mastery gets from that change. I would imagine not much, but that could move it almost equal to crit.

I'm already working on a simcraft build with the datamined changes. I'll have results posted later this evening.
- Free Gary
- Gary does Shadow damage (and nature, but we don't have any +nature scalars, so it's effectively just shadow)
- PS applies FF and BP
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
FBI
14175
While it is good to see that our ramp-up is being cut down by the change to Plague Strike, the fact that there's no use for IT any longer may make the orphaned Frost runes in AoE more notable. I'm very interested in seeing what they'll do to counter this. Perhaps a change to Pestilence (to 1U) or Festering Strike (to spread diseases)?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5185
Simplest fix is to change Pestilence and Blood Boil to cost 1B1F and double Blood Boil's damage, both special-cased for Unholy. Done and done.

The devs clearly hate special-casing per spec, and I can certainly understand why. But the fact is that 1B abilities simply do not work for a spec that pairs U/BF. They work fine for UF/B.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Gary doing shadow damage is probably the best buff ever to Unholy.. The no-RP is nice too... Plague Strike is kinda meh.. Unholy DKs never lose their diseases on a target.. Its still a buff..

Thank you Blizz...
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
21085
12/21/2012 08:17 PMPosted by Elantor
Plague Strike is kinda meh


Wrong. It significantly helps with our target switching and rune desyncing issues: A mechanical improvement that we've asked for for some time.

Anyhow, I'll hold off further commentary till we get more information...
Edited by Magdalena on 12/21/2012 8:21 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Plague Strike is kinda meh


Wrong. It significantly helps with our target switching and rune desyncing issues: A mechanical improvement that we've asked for for some time.

Anyhow, I'll hold off further commentary till we get more information...


What are you talking about... If the target is less than 40 yds, we use Roiling Blood. If its more than 40 yards... IT+PS is more than enough.. By the time we reach the target (its more than 40 yrds) the frost rune would have refreshed (and we get the damage from Icy Touch).. If Icy Touch applied both diseases then yea I would consider it a decent buff... This is still a buff but as I said earlier (kinda meh)..
Edited by Elantor on 12/21/2012 8:26 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
16140
The Plague Strike change directly solves the biggest problem Unholy has; target switching. It also makes disease rolling even more advantageous with a much smaller opportunity cost to do. Best change in there so far in my opinion. The gargoyle changes are definitely nice (especially making him free) but I don't think it will make mastery amazing. It may bring mastery up to a level where it may not feel like a wasted stat, which is good.
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
13890
Firstly how do we know "Plague" damage is Shadow+Nature, not disputing it but was Plague damage part of the game formerly or has it been stated the this is the way Plague damage is. The way I read it I thought that it was going to be similar to Chaos damage, so basically this would change how Gary plays in PvP.

How will "Plague" damage interact with mastery? Will it be that Gary's damage is 50% Nature and 50% Shadow? Therefore making mastery increase the damage of the Shadow portion and leaving the nature damage unchanged. Meaning mastery increases damage by .5% per 1%. Or will mastery effect all of his damage? If this is the case why would the Nature part be kept?
Reply Quote
100 Human Death Knight
21085
12/21/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Elantor
What are you talking about...


...Did you bother reading the OP where I discussed this? In detail?

Eh, forget it.
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
16140
Firstly how do we know "Plague" damage is Shadow+Nature, not disputing it but was Plague damage part of the game formerly or has it been stated the this is the way Plague damage is. The way I read it I thought that it was going to be similar to Chaos damage, so basically this would change how Gary plays in PvP.

How will "Plague" damage interact with mastery? Will it be that Gary's damage is 50% Nature and 50% Shadow? Therefore making mastery increase the damage of the Shadow portion and leaving the nature damage unchanged. Meaning mastery increases damage by .5% per 1%. Or will mastery effect all of his damage? If this is the case why would the Nature part be kept?


Plague damage has always been in the game mechanics, or at least as long as dual-school spells have existed. It is classified as nature/shadow damage and works similarly to say, Frostfire Bolt, Death Siphon, or Mind Spike. Essentially it will scale and do damage based on what would do more damage to the target between nature and shadow damage. Given that we do 20% more damage from our mastery baseline plus whatever we have from mastery rating, it will more often than not base its damage off of shadow-scaling modifiers. If it were to hit something immune to shadow damage, it would still do damage as nature damage instead, as the nature damage would do more than the shadow damage (immunity = 0 damage).

I hope I explained this well enough.
Reply Quote
100 Orc Death Knight
17870
I'm actually very pleased with these changes. A mastery scaling gargoyle should buff our mastery slightly in terms of stat weights. No cost completely removes the issue about death coil surpassing it in damage. The plague strike change is a great option, however its slightly annoying that we cannot apply both diseases at ranged.

Hell, having outbreak cost 1 unholy rune with no cd would actually have been a better change imo.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
FBI
14175


Wrong. It significantly helps with our target switching and rune desyncing issues: A mechanical improvement that we've asked for for some time.

Anyhow, I'll hold off further commentary till we get more information...


What are you talking about... If the target is less than 40 yds, we use Roiling Blood. If its more than 40 yards... IT+PS is more than enough.. By the time we reach the target (its more than 40 yrds) the frost rune would have refreshed (and we get the damage from Icy Touch).. If Icy Touch applied both diseases then yea I would consider it a decent buff... This is still a buff but as I said earlier (kinda meh)..

Consider for a moment a fight such as Amber-Shaper. Outbreak is still on cooldown from spending it on the boss. The Amber Monstrosity has just jumped out though, so you need to DPS it down. The most basic of target-swapping scenarios.
Apply the diseases via one Plague Strike and you're golden- Unholy has plenty of Unholy runes to spare for such a task, but not Frost runes like you suggest. If you use Icy Touch and Plague Strike, then you would have to burn a spare Blood rune just to keep your runes synchronized. This saves you both the Frost rune and Blood rune, allowing you to Festering Strike and subsequently reach Death runes more quickly.

12/21/2012 08:40 PMPosted by Nangz
Hell, having outbreak cost 1 unholy rune with no cd would actually have been a better change imo.

It's a trade-off. Burn a cooldown to apply diseases at range, or cast it freely from melee. I'd say it's pretty fair.
Edited by Leviatharan on 12/21/2012 8:50 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Why does nobody involved in open-source projects believe in documentation...? Sigh. Got the free gargoyle and conditional "if unholy, PS applies FF" bits in. Next up is the gargoyle dealing shadow damage, then a sim run. I'll post results as soon as they're finished.

Edit: Okay, I think I figured out how they do their elemental damage masks. In theory, this should all work. Trying a sim run now...

Edit #2: Looks like it worked. I'm going to go fix the priority system and then do a 50k sim with weights.
Edited by Krinu on 12/21/2012 9:39 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Orc Death Knight
13765
Icy Touch is on Reaping now as well, so, I guess we....Icy Touch those orphaned runes >.>
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
12/21/2012 08:29 PMPosted by Hemalador
Firstly how do we know "Plague" damage is Shadow+Nature, not disputing it but was Plague damage part of the game formerly or has it been stated the this is the way Plague damage is. The way I read it I thought that it was going to be similar to Chaos damage, so basically this would change how Gary plays in PvP.

ICC, I believe - there's "plague" damage there, too, and it's nature+shadow.

12/21/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Waylandyr
Icy Touch is on Reaping now as well, so, I guess we....Icy Touch those orphaned runes >.>

Wait, it is? Now I need to go add that to the list.

Hm. Wait. We don't use IT any more in a single-target rotation. It only matters for AoE. I can do that change later.
Edited by Krinu on 12/21/2012 9:48 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Okay. I haven't done a stat weight sim run yet, mostly because those take like ten minutes to do. However, the change so far is roughly a 5% decrease in open GCDs (from 14.87% to 13.75% free time), and a 1.3% DPS increase.
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
FBI
14175
12/21/2012 09:46 PMPosted by Waylandyr
Icy Touch is on Reaping now as well, so, I guess we....Icy Touch those orphaned runes >.>

That's one I just find really... weird. Our AoE rot would just be whack-a-mole that way. :S
Hoping we can get another change to make that less... awkward...
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Eh, I guess it's nice because it lets us run in, blood boil twice, then IT twice to convert the runes without having to waste two blood rune refreshes on Festering Strike.

I still think the better solution would have been to give us Frost runes as permanent Death runes, but meh, they evidently don't want to do that.

I'm doing a stat weight run on the 5.2 changes right now, they should be ready in about ten minutes or so.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Shaman
5185
I'm not sure where MMO-champ is getting that Reaping applies to Icy Touch. It's not in their datamined tooltip, unless they messed up and linked to the live one on their site.

That's a bizarre change, since they just removed the need to use Icy Touch on single-targets. Like Lev said, I guess it fixes the need to use Festering Strike to convert frost runes to death to AE. It's kind of a bizarre way to do it. Now we're in a situation where the only reason to even bind Icy Touch is to convert runes to Death while AEing. That's awkward. I guess the devs really didn't want to special-case Unholy abilities to cost 1B1F.

So... it wasn't fixed in the way I would prefer, but cross that one off the list. Rampup on the ghoul is still at the top of that list.
Edited by Slant on 12/21/2012 10:16 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
10680
I'm not sure where MMO-champ is getting that Reaping applies to Icy Touch. It's not in their datamined tooltip, unless they messed up and linked to the live one on their site.


It's in the official blizzard notes
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]