Unholy Death Knights: Mechanical Shortcomings

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Aaannnd... DONE! Here are the results of the sim. The first is the result of the proposed 5.2 changes, the second is a "live" sim from yesterday. Both use the T14H set, so gear is identical.

http://173.164.183.244/phydeaux/wow/unholy52_results.html
http://173.164.183.244/phydeaux/wow/unholylive_results.html

Mastery IS slightly more valuable, but the big change is the reduction in value of haste. I'm pretty sure this stems more from our fewer free GCDs than it does from any real changes made.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5080
Ahh, didn't see those. Thanks.

Haste is still the most valuable stat, just by a smaller margin, so nothing really changes there. However, you can share gear between DW frost and unholy much more easily. If there was a real reason to spec unholy, anyway.
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90 Undead Death Knight
8890
Simplest fix is to change Pestilence and Blood Boil to cost 1B1F and double Blood Boil's damage, both special-cased for Unholy. Done and done.

The devs clearly hate special-casing per spec, and I can certainly understand why. But the fact is that 1B abilities simply do not work for a spec that pairs U/BF. They work fine for UF/B.


If Blood Boil's damage is basically doubled, what does that do to the value of Scourge Strike? Could we see some further weirdness where Scourge Strike comes second in a single target scenario?
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100 Draenei Shaman
5080
Even doubled, Blood Boil would only deal 33% AP damage. Compare that to Death Coil at 61.7% AP damage. No, it wouldn't compete with Scourge Strike on single targets. Not even close.

Note that Howling Blast does 34.1% AP damage, so a double-damage Blood Boil would roughly equal Howling Blast... but it would still cost two runes, so you'd be able to cast it half as often.
Edited by Slant on 12/21/2012 11:03 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
13740
12/21/2012 08:34 PMPosted by Semmi
I hope I explained this well enough


Yep, cheers for clearing that up.

Icy Touch on reaping is wholey and soley for Death Siphon in PvP imo, and its a great change. It now means Unholy can actually play as a semi ranged class in PvP, it won't do as much damage but it can heal itself and kite melee nicely while still building SI stacks. I guess it will also be a very small buff to our AoE damage in PvE, making us not have to use runes on Festering Strike.

Edit: On that expect Death Siphon to be buffed further. On live atm on geared targets (PvP) it's hitting for 10-15k and healing for the same amount, with changes it'll hit for 10-15k and heal for 15-22.5k. This still means keeping Death runes for Necrotic Strike, although instead of buffing it they may make the healing portion ignore resilience as Necrotics do currently.
Edited by Hemalador on 12/21/2012 11:23 PM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
5080
12/21/2012 11:16 PMPosted by Hemalador
It now means Unholy can actually play as a semi ranged class in PvP, it won't do as much damage but it can heal itself and kite melee nicely while still building SI stacks.

Ohh-ho!

Well I guess now we know why this is going to be nerfed. The devs do not want shadowfrost.

Then again, maybe they changed their minds. It's been a coupla years.
Edited by Slant on 12/21/2012 11:22 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Shadowfrost, hm? I miss those days. I liked playing a ranged unholy knight, ala the Warcraft 2 DKs.

Edit:
12/21/2012 11:16 PMPosted by Hemalador
Edit: On that expect Death Siphon to be buffed further. On live atm on geared targets (PvP) it's hitting for 10-15k and healing for the same amount, with changes it'll hit for 10-15k and heal for 15-22.5k. This still means keeping Death runes for Necrotic Strike, although instead of buffing it they may make the healing portion ignore resilience as Necrotics do currently.

Yeah. With increasing resilience, the 30% PvP healing nerf, Mortal Strike, and defensive cooldowns all reducing it... death siphon is pretty much garbage.
Edited by Krinu on 12/21/2012 11:31 PM PST
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100 Human Death Knight
20590
12/21/2012 11:16 PMPosted by Hemalador
Icy Touch on reaping is wholey and soley for Death Siphon in PvP


No.
It also helps with orphan Frost Runes in AoE situations for PvE purposes. While it doesn't fully eliminate AoE setup, it finally lets us get out of having to double Festering Strike in anticipation of AoE phases.
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100 Human Death Knight
13740
No.
It also helps with orphan Frost Runes in AoE situations for PvE purposes. While it doesn't fully eliminate AoE setup, it finally lets us get out of having to double Festering Strike in anticipation of AoE phases.


Yep no doubt, which is why I mentioned it in my post after :) We are still left in the position of double IT which is definetly better than Festering Strikes and is a buff to our AoE setup, but the primary reason imo why Bliz would implement this change is for Death Siphon in PvP.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
Heres something to keep in mind with Krinu's numbers: his disease values are still the same as simcrafts T14H numbers for Unholy. Essentially, theyre MUCH lower than they would be for someone who was intelligently applying diseases when trinkets are procced.

Btw thats not your fault Krinu, thats on the Simc guys to work that out. Im currently trying to get them to improve on their priority list.

That means crit might actually surpass haste.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
Something must be off Krinu.

Gargoyle damage for the 5.1 simc profile shows 3.2%.
Your 5.2 profile shows 3.7%.
Average damage goes from 19405 (simc 5.1) to 21501 (your 5.2).

In a raid setting, I currently have 40% mastery fully buffed with Might. If the gargoyle is going to benefit from our mastery, its damage should go up about 40-50%. Rough napkin math...19405 x 1.4 = 27167 average hit.

Your value looks like its a bit low.
Edited by Rothulean on 12/22/2012 1:09 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
@Disease lineup: I'll see if I can get them to synchronize. We'll see how that goes.

@Gargoyle damage: I noticed that, too. Something is DEFINITELY wrong - it's not inheriting anywhere near the full mastery benefit. I have no idea why. I'll try changing stuff out over the next day or two. It SHOULD be increasing Gargoyle damage by 44.71% and it obviously isn't.

Edit: While I'm not a formal member of the SimC team, I do work on it now and then, so if there's something you'd like to see, let me know and I'll poke at it in my free time.
Edited by Krinu on 12/22/2012 1:48 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
Heres an issue I brought up a little while back. Since youre working on 5.2 changes, you could substitute Unholy Blight with Plague Strike when trinkets and such proc.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/issues/detail?id=1486
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I'm a bloody idiot. I set the Gargoyle to do Plague damage (Nature/Shadow), but I forgot that pets don't inherit school bonuses automatically from their master, it needs to be added in specifically.

The increase in average gargoyle hit is coming exclusively from the Gargoyle being used *right* after the pull, when heroism/potion/trinket/bloodlust/etc. are all active.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
The gargoyle + added disease damage buffs should definitely give Mastery a bump then. Assuming the disease priority can be programmed in?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
It can. I'm reading through your submission to the SimC folks. I want to get the gargoyle properly scaling with mastery first, then I'll work on getting the disease priority bit working.

Just from a quick scan, *most* of what you want to do can be done by expanding the action priority system. At the very least, adding a "if trinket X is proc'd and ability Y is proc'd, use outbreak" clause is easy to add and would significantly help performance.
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100 Human Death Knight
20590
This is probably a good time to mention that I'm looking for people savvy with addon coding to help construct one for disease management for Unholy DKs.

Here's the idea:

Essentially I'd want an addon that monitors things such as AP, Crit, Mastery levels and % Power gains (think Rogue Tricks) and calculates how much damage your diseases would do with all these procced.
It then monitors your current disease ticks on the target and makes the recommendation, whether to reapply or keep rolling for higher damage.

I know there was a version of this used by WoTLK Unholy DKs, but I imagine what I'm asking for is harder to code since it monitors more than AP. If anyone has any leads or suggestons on this, please let me know.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0

Consider for a moment a fight such as Amber-Shaper. Outbreak is still on cooldown from spending it on the boss. The Amber Monstrosity has just jumped out though, so you need to DPS it down. The most basic of target-swapping scenarios.
Apply the diseases via one Plague Strike and you're golden- Unholy has plenty of Unholy runes to spare for such a task, but not Frost runes like you suggest. If you use Icy Touch and Plague Strike, then you would have to burn a spare Blood rune just to keep your runes synchronized. This saves you both the Frost rune and Blood rune, allowing you to Festering Strike and subsequently reach Death runes more quickly.



Why would I IT+PS the Amber Monstrosity? I would just Blood Boil and spread it via the Amber Shaper which is exactly my point
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100 Human Death Knight
20590
12/22/2012 05:19 AMPosted by Elantor
I would just Blood Boil and spread it via the Amber Shaper which is exactly my point


And you're missing the point. Again.

Let me repeat myself:

Whether you Blood Boil or use a PS/IT combo, you're sacrificing a Blood or Frost rune. Thus, you sacrifice an immediate Festering Strike, as well as the opportunity to convert the Rune pair into Death Runes in the future.

That means a potential 2 Scourge Strikes or a minimum of 1 Blood Boil which you just sacrificed switching targets. Now factor in having to do this repeatedly and it becomes clear why F/U combos or 1 B cost skills don't work well for Unholy's single target model.

This is why the Plague Strike change is a particularly potent buff to our target switching capabilities, particularly if they allow it to trigger Death Runes if used on Blood or Frost Runes that have already been converted to Death Runes.

If this doesn't make it clear, not sure what else will.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5080
12/22/2012 12:07 AMPosted by Rothulean
That means crit might actually surpass haste.

Ugh. So then all 3 DPS specs would want different reforges/gems. That would suck. Although I guess you can only spec into 2 at one time.
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