Unholy Death Knights: Mechanical Shortcomings

90 Orc Death Knight
16140
12/22/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Slant
That means crit might actually surpass haste.

Ugh. So then all 3 DPS specs would want different reforges/gems. That would suck. Although I guess you can only spec into 2 at one time.


Different specs value different things differently. Learn to deal with it. Regardless, I doubt crit will ever outright surpass haste. Ever since 4.3, crit and haste have been fairly strong and close enough together that going with one stat or another doesn't impact your DPS the way it would a Warrior by stacking some other stat over crit. Haste and crit will dance around each other in relative value based on your current stats given how close they are.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
Im guessing we will get a haste breakpoint. After that, Id expect crit to surpass it. I believe Krinu? mentioned that crit was already beginning to pull ahead of haste in the simc profile.
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90 Draenei Priest
6580
Well, after haste already had sort of a breakpoint in 4.3, where if you were close to 2200 haste rating you would start getting GCD-capping problems. After that point crit or mastery with gurth would pull ahead since more haste wouldn't mean you'd be able to expand resources faster.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
8080
This is probably a good time to mention that I'm looking for people savvy with addon coding to help construct one for disease management for Unholy DKs.

Here's the idea:

Essentially I'd want an addon that monitors things such as AP, Crit, Mastery levels and % Power gains (think Rogue Tricks) and calculates how much damage your diseases would do with all these procced.
It then monitors your current disease ticks on the target and makes the recommendation, whether to reapply or keep rolling for higher damage.

I know there was a version of this used by WoTLK Unholy DKs, but I imagine what I'm asking for is harder to code since it monitors more than AP. If anyone has any leads or suggestons on this, please let me know.


Excellent idea. If I might make a suggestion (or perhaps more of a reminder not to forget something like this) for anyone interested in making such an addon, could the addon say how long until a buff falls off? Say that it's tracking if you have certains buffs (like Fallen Crusader or Tricks), and using that it calculates if the diseases would do more damage if you reapplied now. However, say that you do not have all the buffs you could have to strengthen your diseases. Say, 5/6 buffs (random numbers). I'd like to know how long I have until one of those buffs fell off. It would be nice to wait for the 6th buff for maximum damage, but if one of the others fall off while I'm waiting it, that would be a shame.

Also, crit is fun. I hope it jumps up in strength. =D
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11850
I would just Blood Boil and spread it via the Amber Shaper which is exactly my point


And you're missing the point. Again.

Let me repeat myself:

Whether you Blood Boil or use a PS/IT combo, you're sacrificing a Blood or Frost rune. Thus, you sacrifice an immediate Festering Strike, as well as the opportunity to convert the Rune pair into Death Runes in the future.

That means a potential 2 Scourge Strikes or a minimum of 1 Blood Boil which you just sacrificed switching targets. Now factor in having to do this repeatedly and it becomes clear why F/U combos or 1 B cost skills don't work well for Unholy's single target model.

This is why the Plague Strike change is a particularly potent buff to our target switching capabilities, particularly if they allow it to trigger Death Runes if used on Blood or Frost Runes that have already been converted to Death Runes.

If this doesn't make it clear, not sure what else will.


You are way overthinking this.... There are way more things to consider to value the worthiness of Blood Boil Spreading diseases to a new target instead of plague strike.. While plague strike is single target, blood boil (at the minimum) hits 2... There is also refreshing subsequent diseases of those other diseases on other targets other than the primary... Not to mention availability of Death runes prior to the target switching which makes it even difficult compare Blood Boil and Plague Strike

This is why calculating rune desyncing for targets more than 2 is not worth the pain.
Edited by Elantor on 12/23/2012 6:11 AM PST
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90 Worgen Death Knight
16870
12/23/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Elantor
You are way overthinking this.


I beg to differ. You don't seem to be thinking, period.

12/23/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Elantor
While plague strike is single target, blood boil (at the minimum) hits 2


And this has absolutely ZERO relevance to target switching or the way in which runes become desynchronised by F/U combos.

12/23/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Elantor
There is also refreshing subsequent diseases of those other diseases on other targets other than the primary.


And again, you're making silly assumptions about there consistently being multiple mobs up at the same time and in relatively close proximity to one another (or at least, close enough to have diseases spread on them).

12/23/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Elantor
Not to mention availability of Death runes prior to the target switching which makes it even difficult compare Blood Boil and Plague Strike


...Seriously? Do I need to repeat myself again?

Anyhow, it's clear that this is a useless argument.
Blizzard has, fortunately, recognised the issue that target switching posed to Unholy and has largely addressed it with the Plague Strike change; your inability to recognise a powerful mechanical buff for what it is aside.
Edited by Magdalena on 12/23/2012 8:22 AM PST
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90 Worgen Death Knight
16870
Good news on the addon front: Simu from Grim Batol-EU has come up with a very promising version of what I asked for, based off the AffliDot code.

It monitors AP/Crit/Mastery at the time of disease application and then subsequently makes recommendations as to whether or not reapplying is a DPS gain or less over their current values.
It might prove less useful for Blood and Frost Death Knights, given how often they refresh their DoTs, but is still quite a nifty and lightweight addition. I'll post a Curse link as soon as it goes Live.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
How much of a performance gain is reapplying more frequently, even in a best case scenario? Isn't Unholy forced to reapply diseases every 60s regardless? Reapplying buffed diseases made sense back in 3.1 with the old Glyph of Disease, because it allowed you to roll buffed diseases for an entire encounter. Has anyone tested it and done the math or implemented it in a simcraft profile?

It seems likely to me that buffing diseases for a maximum of 60s probably isn't worth trading off a Scourge Strike-- or if it is, like so many other things the benefit is likely to be so marginal that it's not worth the annoyance.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
8080
How much of a performance gain is reapplying more frequently, even in a best case scenario? Isn't Unholy forced to reapply diseases every 60s regardless? Reapplying buffed diseases made sense back in 3.1 with the old Glyph of Disease, because it allowed you to roll buffed diseases for an entire encounter. Has anyone tested it and done the math or implemented it in a simcraft profile?

It seems likely to me that buffing diseases for a maximum of 60s probably isn't worth trading off a Scourge Strike-- or if it is, like so many other things the benefit is likely to be so marginal that it's not worth the annoyance.


It should be very worthwhile. I was hitting a dummy earlier to see the difference. With only HoW, my Blood Plague was hitting for about 10k. With trinkets and Fallen Crusader, it was hitting for a bit more than 17k. Consistantly making sure my diseases tick that much harder should be worth losing a Scourge Strike if needed.

However, it is somewhat moot due to 5.2. In 5.2, it will easily be worth losing a single Scourge Strike to Plague Strike your diseases when needed.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
Festering strike is how Unholy diseases hit 60s in the first place. Otherwise they only last 30s.

It really depends on how much the average disease damage increases over the course of an entire fight. If it averages anything over 25% it's definitely worthwhile.
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90 Orc Death Knight
16140
It is definitely worth reapplying diseases if procs line up. I have been doing so since MoP with Relic of Xuen and Lei Shin's Final Orders and have always gotten a DPS gain out of it. It's even simpler if you use Unholy Blight, as you can open with that instead of Outbreak as it will essentially update your diseases every second for 10 seconds, giving you a 10 second window at the start of a fight for all of your procs to pop. A cancelaura macro is useful too in case you pop Unholy Blight sometime in the fight and it would refresh diseases after procs have fallen off.

With the Plague Strike change, so long as a PS plus a buffed set of diseases would outdamage a Scourge Strike, it's worth doing (which should be just about always). Factoring in the target's time to live of course.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
12/23/2012 03:36 PMPosted by Semmi
With the Plague Strike change, so long as a PS plus a buffed set of diseases would outdamage a Scourge Strike, it's worth doing (which should be just about always). Factoring in the target's time to live of course.

That's a very good point. There's no micromanagement, because the mod tells you when to do it, and PS+buffed diseases will always outdamage ScS alone. Anyway, I think we've derailed this thread long enough, it's supposed to be about Unholy's problems (the rampup! the rampup!) not how we plan to optimize play in 5.2.
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90 Human Death Knight
12100
You are way overthinking this.... There are way more things to consider to value the worthiness of Blood Boil Spreading diseases to a new target instead of plague strike.. While plague strike is single target, blood boil (at the minimum) hits 2... There is also refreshing subsequent diseases of those other diseases on other targets other than the primary... Not to mention availability of Death runes prior to the target switching which makes it even difficult compare Blood Boil and Plague Strike

This is why calculating rune desyncing for targets more than 2 is not worth the pain.


Obviously you are taking roiling blood. Blood boil doesn't spread diseases, pestilence does.

Using Roiling Blood to refresh disease can lead to sub par (weak) diseases being spread if your not careful about it, considering blood boil is our main AoE attack. In 5.2, in AoE situation, your trinkets will proc, you'll hit plague strike (You'll always have that unholy rune) then Pestilence. All the mobs will have buffed disease and your free to Blod Boil to your hearts content. Roiling Blood is a DPS loss.
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90 Human Death Knight
12100
That's a very good point. There's no micromanagement, because the mod tells you when to do it, and PS+buffed diseases will always outdamage ScS alone. Anyway, I think we've derailed this thread long enough, it's supposed to be about Unholy's problems (the rampup! the rampup!) not how we plan to optimize play in 5.2.


Imo having the garg free is as much ramp up as we need. I like the way you build up stacks on timmy, it's one of the signatures of the spec, that may be just me though. It would be good if we were able to start the fight with buffed timmy, similar to how Boomy's use Astral Communication, just so we can have him buffed for pre-pots, trinket procs, hero on the pull, but we have free Gary help us now (well in 5.2).
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90 Draenei Shaman
4790
I could not possibly disagree more. The ghoul takes way too long to ramp-up. WAY too long.
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90 Undead Death Knight
8915
12/23/2012 04:20 PMPosted by Slant
I could not possibly disagree more. The ghoul takes way too long to ramp-up. WAY too long.


it doesn't take THAT long if you are pooling/using ams properly during midfight the biggest issue was the fact that gary competed with SI stacks for resources in the early game, with gary being free that alleviates a lot of the issue of unholy feeling slow to start up. I mean yea we still aren't on a push to start engine like frost but it should definitely feel a heck of a lot smoother with gary being free.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Slant, while I agree that it feels too long, it really isn't as big a deal as you make it out to be.

Roughly 15% of our damage comes from our ghoul on a single-target fight. DT approximately doubles our ghoul's damage. We hit 93% of maximum DPS as soon as we touch a target, because we have literally no other ramp up. The remaining 7% takes a while, yes, and could be faster... but it's not class-breaking.

The flip side being that we also have a really long ramp *down* time on our damage: our pet can stay on a target, our disease continue to tick, and we can even lay down D&D/IT/Death Siphon at range to do over half of our melee damage from thirty yards away.

Unholy is sort of like a caster, in that respect: We take longer to get rolling, and as such do slightly less overall damage, but we have much better effective uptime than our pure-melee brethren.
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90 Orc Death Knight
12740
Any progress on the Gargoyle/Mastery thing Krinu?
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