Shadow 5.2 Wishlist

100 Undead Priest
10715
We don't really need a whole lot of DPS while moving though. On multi-target encounters, refreshing SW:P on the move is more than adequate for DPS while moving. The problem always comes back to single-target encounters.

Mind Flay is really the only thing that needs to be altered. Some of the other stuff would be cool, but we're not lacking fun factor or cool factor. Feeling useful on single-target encounters is what we're after and that's all we need.
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90 Human Priest
10500
Mobile DPS
In Cata, Shadow was able to spam Devouring Plague while moving. This was fine because the damage was a slight increase over standing and hardcasting Mind Flay. Because DP now requires 3 orbs before it's a DPS gain, this is no longer possible and we're stuck with spamming SW: P on the move. I'm okay with this, similar to Balance Druids using Moonfire, Mages use Scorch / Ice Lance, etc. However, SW: P's initial damage needs a buff to make this viable. Currently, it feels like we're throwing spitballs at bosses while moving. It's dull and ineffective and needs some changes.


I liked seeing all the shadowy apparitions walking towards the boss back when moving increased the proc (and there was not the limit of three). I thought the spell was originally designed to help the lack of DPS during movement issues but now it is just there and seems to provide more joke fodder during raids than usefulness when they wander around clueless.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
12945
I think its time they just abolish the Shadow Orb system completely. Obviously it's a lot better than in was in Cataclysm but if you look how it is in MoP, its not fun nor does it bring anything really special to the class.

Our only defensive option with Shadow Orbs is Psychic Horror and even then it just makes a once fun spell, clunky. In PvP, only one orb is used for this spell, which again only highlights how necessary the Shadow Orb system is.

Also in other PvP related issues - everyone loves to talk about how powerful Spriests are in PvP but without FDCL and DI they'd be a joke. The fact that these two talents are required in order to function is a major problem that nobody seems to care about.

As for Shadow's PvE issues (mobility and single-target damage) - all of these stem from poor talents and Mind Flay. It'd be nice if there were talents that actually boosted Mind Flays damage and utility.

For example:

Instead of the current joke that is SW:I how about,

Shadow Word: Insanity - 12 sec cooldown - Instant Cast
Blasts the target for X Shadow damage, refreshing the duration of Shadow Word: Pain while increasing the damage done by your next Mind Flay by 100%.

Mindbender - While Mindbender is active your Mind Flay's critical strike chance is increased by 50%.

Power Infusion - Your Mind Flay now also inflicts the enemy with Shadow Weaving. Shadow Weaving causes X shadow damage over 15 sec, while increasing all shadow damage taken by X%.

And lastly, I'd like to see the Mind Flay glyph allow casting while moving with the removal of the snare.

My Wishlist:
-Shadow Orb system abolished
-Devouring Plague now has a 24 sec cooldown
-Mind Flay enchanced through talents and glyphs
-SW:I, Power Infusion, Mindbender, and Twist of Fate made into something Shadow would actually consider.
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90 Troll Priest
Rex
14195
>I think its time they just abolish the Shadow Orb system completely.

on a scale from one to ten this will never happen
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
I think increasing the benefit of mastery for mindflay would do wonders for our single target.
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88 Goblin Warlock
1410
sp is already top tier pvp range dps i doubt any further buff is warranted at ALL
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100 Human Priest
13715
Not a PvP thread
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
Possibly. It's probably a pipedream but it just sounds so cool to me to cast on the run, I've always been jealous of post-on-the-move Scorch, even if it hits like a spaghetti noodle.


Given that warlocks can do nearly everything on the move with KJC, allowing Mind Flay on the move at the cost of it's snare (sounds like a good remake of the MF glyph) isn't really overpowered.

This would also make the SWI change I proposed above far more beneficial.

As for shadow orbs, I can almost guarantee you that they are NOT going anywhere. Blizzard has been systematically moving in the direction of more secondary resource focus, particularly for casters. They realized somewhere along the lines that managing mana as a source of "complexity" wasn't really a super fun mechanic for most dps (though they left in arcane mages for those that enjoy it). Every caster class except mages now have a secondary resource to deal with, varying from "moderately important" to "core of the spec":

Druids: Eclipse
Shaman: Lightning Shield charges
Priests: Shadow Orbs
Aff Warlocks: Shards
Demo Warlocks: Fury
Destro Warlocks: Embers

So ya, Shadow Orbs aren't going anywhere. They are the variant of the combo point system that Blizz has given to spriests (and nearly all casters have some variant of it) for the very specific purpose of livening up the DPS rotations and making them more about judging and decision making rather than simply spamming the first button to light up.
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90 Night Elf Priest
13860
Yes, let me be clear that I like Shadow Orbs - at least, what the system could be. I was pretty jealous of Paladins when they got Holy Power, it looked fun and interesting (while the initial implementation of Orbs was more burdensome than compelling), and I was thrilled when Orbs were revamped for MOP.

So that's a damn shame, but I don't want them removed completely. Just give us one or two new uses and one or two new ways to generate them.

I really wish they had kept the Harnessed Shadows effect from Cata:

You have a Y% chance to gain a Shadow Orb when critically hit by any attack.


This sets up a cool dynamic for PvP, both for and against the Shadowpriest: A focused Shadowpriest actually becomes a fearsome enemy because you're feeding him Orbs, and he can (gasp) actually do scary things with Orbs. So you learn to think twice about brainlessly piling on a Shadowpriest, secure that he can't do anything about it. On the other hand, as the Shadowpriest himself you learn that since the most effective way to deal with you is to just CC you, you become better at avoiding CC while figuring out the best way to put on the most pressure yourself, despite your low rate of Orb generation.
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90 Human Priest
4750
12/27/2012 11:54 AMPosted by Santee
sp is already top tier pvp range dps i doubt any further buff is warranted at ALL


Thanks for reading, like, any of the thread at all before inserting blanket idiotic comments.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12915
Blizzard could fix two issues by fixing PI and SW:I.

Make SW:I increase the direct damage portion of SW:P. Make it do enough damage to compete with FDCL and MB but not enough to make us spam it over MF.

Make PI stack with lust and adjust the cd to compete with TOF / DI.

With those changes our mobile dps would be better, and we would have access to a decent dps cooldown.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
17205
12/28/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Lelliana
Thanks for reading, like, any of the thread at all before inserting blanket idiotic comments.


Sadly this has to be taken into consideration given how much the developers are against further splitting PVE and PVP mechanics. Changes to one will carry over to the other.
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90 Human Priest
4750
Glyph of Mind Flay:

Allows you to move while channeling Mind Flay, but removes the Snare component of the Spell.

An AoE Rotation that allows us, like the other DoT class in the game, to spread out DoTs to other mobs without spending 20 seconds applying dots on 5 targets.

A low-to-moderate buff to Mind Flay's Damage, or a way to buff DoT damage done on a single target with a limit to one target being effected.

It's simple solutions that will get us where we need to be in a content patch. Complete redesigning of talents is *usually* something that is reserved for expansions.

These have all been said before so it's not my original ideas but these changes would have a negligible effect (if at all) in PvP, other than maybe the DoT damage done to a single target buff, but the numbers could be toyed with.
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Blizzard could fix two issues by fixing PI and SW:I.

Make SW:I increase the direct damage portion of SW:P. Make it do enough damage to compete with FDCL and MB but not enough to make us spam it over MF.

Make PI stack with lust and adjust the cd to compete with TOF / DI.

With those changes our mobile dps would be better, and we would have access to a decent dps cooldown.


I like the suggestion earlier in the thread where SW:I would refresh SW:P instead of consuming it, while still doing damage and only being usable in the last 5 or so seconds of the DoT. That wouldn't help mobility at all, but it would make the talent a bit stronger, since we wouldn't lose out on that extra tick or two of SW:P per Insanity.

As for mobility, I would just say to buff Shadowy Apparitions. I didn't even realize that they no longer had an increased proc chance while moving until someone mentioned it in the thread, that's dumb when they were introduced solely to add to Shadow's mobile dps. Increase the cap (I hesitate to say "remove", because I remember Cataclysm Beta when people dotted up a bunch of targets and just ran around for a while, summoning a horde of apparitions) and increase their movement speed. It'd be nice if they didn't stand around like idiots when a target dies, they could use an AI improvement. But right now, they're just kind of free damage, I hardly even notice them.

Alternately, they could make it into an active spell again (like in Beta), except it could be only castable while moving. That would be a unique movement spell that you could spam on the move. I don't know how hard it would be implement a clause like that though, I don't think any other spells work that way. But it'd be cool to create a mass of shadowy clones that run to the target while I'm running around dodging fire and stuff.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
12/22/2012 04:45 PMPosted by Annesh
Since we begin fights without Shadow Orbs (unless there was some trash beforehand), there's a 24-second delay before we can cast Plague (unless you take DI and have a bit of RNG). This feels bad and every single boss pull I wish I had something to make sure I had full Orbs to start.


Sorry but I definitely have to interject on this.

First off you're not meant to open a fight with DP. That's the point. Otherwise you would in fact have one of these abilities.

Moonkin are meant to go from one state to the other of eclipse. They aren't meant to be sitting neutral so of course it would be fine for them to be able to start the fight in eclipse. Eclipse is nowhere the same as shadow orbs.

Ret can generate HoPo faster than shadow orbs, but TV is not even close to DP unless they have wings up.

You neglected a spec that is VERY similar to shadow: Destruction. Destruction starts every cleared trash boss fight with 0 embers. Sound familiar? Embers are used for 1 spell really for a PVE destro lock. Sound familiar? To get an ember to cast chaos bolt takes about 15-20 seconds depending on the fight and what cds you use and some RNG. Sound familiar?

The woe is me on shadow orbs not being at full on the pull is simply a woe is me.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
12/27/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Areynn
Not a PvP thread


Except a lot of the changes suggested heavily impact pvp. The point was make changes that do not affect pvp since shadow is very strong atm
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90 Troll Warlock
11210
You neglected a spec that is VERY similar to shadow: Destruction. Destruction starts every cleared trash boss fight with 0 embers. Sound familiar? Embers are used for 1 spell really for a PVE destro lock. Sound familiar? To get an ember to cast chaos bolt takes about 15-20 seconds depending on the fight and what cds you use and some RNG. Sound familiar?


Actually, we start with 1 Ember (out of 4). Also have to take into account that Destruction is built entirely around those Embers, they make up between a third and half of my total damage, depending on the fight. DP isn't quite that significant to spriests.

That said, it is a very similar mechanic. Then again, so are Soulshards for Affliction warlocks. They are used to cast a nuke/damage increase (incidentally, Haunt is more akin to DP's role than Chaos Bolt is), as well as utility effects (instantly applying DoTs, instasummoning demons, etc). Afflocks start with 4/4 Shards. Destruction locks are requesting almost as much as spriests a CD or out-of-combat channel to generate Embers before a boss fight for the same reason.

Here's the thing. For Aff, the opening sequence makes a ton of sense. Apply DoTs, channel MG until all proc effects have proced (usually 10-15 seconds in), pop Dark Soul, Re-apply DoTs, then burn shards on Haunt to gain the damage buff while you have super-buffed DoTs active at the start. Works even better if Heroism is popped at the start.

For an spriest, you don't get to pop that first DP until 16 seconds in, and there's a chance your procs will have fallen off by then, cutting down on your opening burst from procs aligning. Destruction, the ideal time to pop CDs and burn out is when you have 4 Embers, which usually takes close to a minute from the start of the fight. This makes it nearly impossible to get a proper proc alignment, particularly with Heroism. There's a rather massive noticeable difference between starting a boss fight at 3.5+ embers and starting at 1. In the former cast, all my procs occur about 5-10 seconds in, I pop Dark Soul, and lay out 4 Chaos Bolts for ~500k apiece. In the latter, the post I'll have is one proc with Dark Soul, which means my Chaos Bolts take nearly a third again as long to cast, and hit for only ~300-350k. That's 2/3rds of a million damage lost from that differential, not to mention it effectively costs me half a Chaos Bolt dump phase over the course of the fight (since in the former, I'm at 0 Embers ~20 seconds in with 4 Chaos Bolts fired, and in the latter, I'd be at ~2 Embers at 20 seconds in with 0 Chaos Bolts fired).

So no, these types of differences are not simply cosmetic or "flavor", they make significant difference on the performance of the specs. Is it really any wonder that spriests and Destro locks are among the lower performing DPS?

Just give us one or two new uses and one or two new ways to generate them.

I really wish they had kept the Harnessed Shadows effect from Cata:

You have a Y% chance to gain a Shadow Orb when critically hit by any attack.


This sets up a cool dynamic for PvP, both for and against the Shadowpriest: A focused Shadowpriest actually becomes a fearsome enemy because you're feeding him Orbs, and he can (gasp) actually do scary things with Orbs. So you learn to think twice about brainlessly piling on a Shadowpriest, secure that he can't do anything about it. On the other hand, as the Shadowpriest himself you learn that since the most effective way to deal with you is to just CC you, you become better at avoiding CC while figuring out the best way to put on the most pressure yourself, despite your low rate of Orb generation.


Honestly, I can't disagree with any of this. Harnessed Shadows would definitely be beneficial. On the utility side, it wouldn't be a bad idea to add in a couple more ways to use Shadow Orbs. Perhaps something similar to Destruction's Ember Tap (maybe a channeled effect that heals per second, consuming Orbs as it goes?).
Edited by Daerius on 12/28/2012 3:40 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Priest
13860
12/28/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Purebalance
Since we begin fights without Shadow Orbs (unless there was some trash beforehand), there's a 24-second delay before we can cast Plague (unless you take DI and have a bit of RNG). This feels bad and every single boss pull I wish I had something to make sure I had full Orbs to start.


Sorry but I definitely have to interject on this.

First off you're not meant to open a fight with DP. That's the point. Otherwise you would in fact have one of these abilities.

Moonkin are meant to go from one state to the other of eclipse. They aren't meant to be sitting neutral so of course it would be fine for them to be able to start the fight in eclipse. Eclipse is nowhere the same as shadow orbs.

Ret can generate HoPo faster than shadow orbs, but TV is not even close to DP unless they have wings up.

You neglected a spec that is VERY similar to shadow: Destruction. Destruction starts every cleared trash boss fight with 0 embers. Sound familiar? Embers are used for 1 spell really for a PVE destro lock. Sound familiar? To get an ember to cast chaos bolt takes about 15-20 seconds depending on the fight and what cds you use and some RNG. Sound familiar?

The woe is me on shadow orbs not being at full on the pull is simply a woe is me.


Two things.

#1: Destruction currently has the ability to do some of the highest PvE dps in the game right now, just by respecing Afflic. Shadow would have to completely reroll.

#2: Instead of smacking down a plea for positive change in a similar spec to your own, why don't we join forces? Like I said, I don't know warlock secondary resource systems as well as I could, so if Destro suffers from a similar problem then maybe we both should equal treatment.

Ramp-up time is something Shadowpriests have had to deal with for years. By no means are we the only such spec, but I just find it sad that Blizz took so many positive steps in the right direction with MoP in removing ramp-up time, only to leave us once the dust cleared, with a new punishing ramp-up mechanic.

Sure, it has near-negligible impact on a 6-minute boss kill. But it still feels lousy, in the moment.
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100 Worgen Priest
16300
Running around Mind Blasting spiders before Heroic Elegon attempts was probably one of the least fun things I've had to do to optimize DPS. An extra DP during a fights is a rather significant increase, especially when your goal is to push P1 as fast as you can.

As far as Destro ember generation vs Shadow orb generation, it's entirely different. If you come to a fight where you have multiple targets close together for extended periods of time (Wind Lord, for example), you can FnB Immolates and Incinerates and be constantly at ember cap. Shadow, on the other hand, doesn't have any way to increase orb generation outside of DI. Even then, simply spamming SW:P on all the targets will oom us, so we have to VT a few of them at least to maintain mana. And even then, we're left to procs to generate more orbs, and our orbs are only increasing our single target DPS. If ember generation is slow on single targets, you even have the option of dropping Rain of Fire on a single target to increase your ember rate. Heck, even crit increases your ember generation rate, meaning it'll scale with gear. Shadow's orb generation is completely static outside of procs on DI.

I really feel like a shadow orb-consuming mechanic that allowed us to spread our DoTs would be amazing. Giving Mind Sear a chance to generate orbs if it hits more than 4 targets would also enhance the AoE experience, giving us orbs and something to do with Orbs for an AoE situation.

Single target, I think we just need some tweaks, nothing game-changing. Mind Flay doing more damage, Mind Blast scaling with haste again, something to do besides SW:P while moving (or bring back increased apparition spawns while moving like someone suggested). For the most part, Shadow's single target rotation feels fine, it just isn't putting up the numbers it really should be.
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Spriests are hurting really bad atm hopefully some love happens for 5.2
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