Suggestions for Ret PvP (5.2)

90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Problem #1:
My stance on Ret as a PvP spec is it'll be fairly balanced once 5.2 brings the outliers in line, but it's not as perfect as the patch notes indicate. MoP Ret was built around active survivability and the global double nerf to healing hurt that.

Possible solutions:
-Buff Glyph of Templar's Verdict, which is already mandatory, from 10% reduced damage to 15%.
-Get rid of Sacred Shield's initial internal cooldown.
-Sword of Light, the Ret passive which increases the healing of WoG and FoL by 30%, should include SS. Then buff WoG to ~45% because the damage tradeoff has become too large a sacrifice.

Problem #2:
Ret still isn't really wanted for RBG's.

Possible solutions:
I think Ret needs stuff that promotes it in this sort of environment. For example, Execution Sentence is worthless in PvP. What if, similar to Prey on the Weak, ES increased damage (if cast on an enemy player) or healing (if cast on a friendly player) by 10%? This would probably be Ret/Prot exclusive because Holy is already wanted for RBG's.

By the way, my intention with these suggestions isn't some lame attempt to get my personal ideas implemented, but to give a general idea of what I think Ret needs.

Problem #3:
This is more of a fun complaint than a balance complaint, but Ret could use some more talent choices.

Possible solutions:
-Change Speed of Light to something different for Prot and Ret. How is it that this class's melee specs only have one useful PvP mobility talent (Long Arm)?
-I really wanted Repentance to be good for Ret PvP, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Buff Sacred Shield as I suggested earlier. Unbreakable Spirit is relatively weak in competitive PvP. Tier 75 is okay. The final tier only has one good PvP talent for all paladin specs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Everyone, Ret and non-Ret alike, feel free to add your input on the topic. It's fine if you disagree with me and you think Ret's absolutely fine, or disagree and think Ret is garbage and needs major buffs!

By the way, I forgot to ask Father Crawler for a Christmas present. This slipped my mind in the original post, but what if Divine Protection -- only for Prot and Ret, mind you -- broke stuns? There is just so much hard CC in MoP and Ret feels a little too susceptible to it.

Warriors have Berserker Rage. DK's can avoid CC with AMS, or break it with Lichborne, IBF, or Desecrated Ground. Windwalkers will now be able to break CC with Nimble Brew, or avoid damage while stunned with Dampen Harm. Mages still have Blink on a 15 sec CD, and after the Blood Fear nerf Unbound Will will be a much more attractive warlock talent.

All of that was just off the top of my head, and on top of that most damage-dealers can avoid more CC than Ret through their sheer offensive control! I think it'd be great if Blizz hit three birds with one stone: buff Ret's survivability, give us a little more control over our characters, and bring back to the spec something resembling Freedom stun-break (oh how I miss thee).
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90 Dwarf Paladin
15400
I'd like Sacred Shield to be a buff or a passive, not something we have to maintenance along with Inquisition.
I think we could do well with a group/raid wide buff, not for Rated BGs though, more for raids. We also severely need better self heals.
Maybe something like this?
Avenging Wrath
Increases all damage and healing caused by 20% for 20 sec. 3% of your maximum health every 2 sec. Springs of Light bounce to party or raid members within 40 yards every 4 seconds increasing their damage and healing done by 2% for 30seconds, stacks up to 5 times.

Though we still need more dmage output outside of cooldowns.

The Art of War
Your autoattacks have a 20% chance of resetting the cooldown of your Exorcism, increasing its damage by 10% and applying a DoT equal to 100% of its damage over 12 seconds.

Maybe? I like that one. I think our current Art of War passive is the most boring passive in the game.
Edited by Fiddlesnarf on 12/22/2012 1:21 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
4375
12/22/2012 05:18 AMPosted by Hafleur
Get rid of Sacred Shield's initial internal cooldown.


I think this change should happen. Having 5ish seconds for the initial shield hurts when you are using it to try and stay alive.

Plus i'd like it for Prot :D

Problem #2:
Ret still isn't really wanted for RBG's.


I'll believe you, but I don't really understand why. Not enough damage? Not enough CC? It can't be buffs, and utility, because Rets (and all pallies) bring loads of those.

12/22/2012 05:18 AMPosted by Hafleur
Change Speed of Light to something different for Prot and Ret. How is it that this class's melee specs only have one useful PvP mobility talent (Long Arm)


Maybe increase it to 100%.

12/22/2012 05:43 AMPosted by Hafleur
is slipped my mind in the original post, but what if Divine Protection -- only for Prot and Ret, mind you -- broke stuns? There is just so much hard CC in MoP and Ret feels a little too susceptible to it.


I think being able to be used during a stun would be enough.

12/22/2012 05:43 AMPosted by Hafleur
Warriors have Berserker Rage. DK's can avoid CC with AMS, or break it with Lichborne, IBF, or Desecrated Ground. Windwalkers will now be able to break CC with Nimble Brew, or avoid damage while stunned with Dampen Harm. Mages still have Blink on a 15 sec CD, and after the Blood Fear nerf Unbound Will will be a much more attractive warlock talent.


I think you forget that pallies have Divine Shield, Emancipate, HoF, HoP, and cleanse. Each of those can mitigate CC's in some regard.

12/22/2012 05:43 AMPosted by Hafleur
dealers can avoid more CC than Ret through their sheer offensive control


because they sacrifice the defensive capabilities that a paladin has. whether or not those defensive skills are strong enough is another matter.

12/22/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Fiddlesnarf
I think we could do well with a group/raid wide buff, not for Rated BGs though, more for raids.


i don't understand why you think ret pallies don't offer much to groups/raids. Buffs, hands, melee debuffs, and Devo Aura seem more than enough. (and frankly more than most classes)

I would like to see a Crusader Aura ability that increases everyones mount speed by 30%. A little more pvp utility, and it fits with the old skill.
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90 Human Paladin
14125

Possible solutions:
-Buff Glyph of Templar's Verdict, which is already mandatory, from 10% reduced damage to 15%.
-Get rid of Sacred Shield's initial internal cooldown.
-Sword of Light, the Ret passive which increases the healing of WoG and FoL by 30%, should include SS. Then buff WoG to ~45% because the damage tradeoff has become too large a sacrifice.

Buffing Glyph of Templar's Verdict isn't a solution. Probably better to make it baseline and have the Glyph do something else entirely. Seems to be a running theme with patch 5.2 anyway.

The whole purpose for the cool down was because players were taking advantage of it. They could revert it back if they could prevent this better.

The best thing to do with Rets healing is make "Sword of Light" increase all healing spells, rather then specifically going after a few. Sacred Shield is considered a type of heal, so allowing Sword of Light to increase it's effect would go a long way.


-Change Speed of Light to something different for Prot and Ret. How is it that this class's melee specs only have one useful PvP mobility talent (Long Arm)?
-I really wanted Repentance to be good for Ret PvP, but I don't think that's gonna happen. Buff Sacred Shield as I suggested earlier. Unbreakable Spirit is relatively weak in competitive PvP. Tier 75 is okay. The final tier only has one good PvP talent for all paladin specs.


Speed of Light is a poor choice because it's meant for Holy. Which really defeats the talent system in the game. Too short of a buff for a long cool down, but fine for Holy Paladins who need to run away around a pillar in PvP. Buffing it will make Holy Paladins untouchable. Probably best to scrap this talent and create a new one in it's place.

Repentance can be good for Ret if Blizzard removed it's need to cast. Casting is an open invitation to lock Ret out of spells. Again a talent made for Holy Paladins. Getting interrupted is the name of the game for Holy, but not for Ret. Holy Paladins will be anticipating being interrupted, but Rets won't be.

The Paladin talent system was designed very well for Holy, but very poorly for Ret and Prot. Prot has it better then Ret does though. Hand of Purity is a perfect example. What Ret would choose this over Clemency? Ret isn't support in PvE, and it's nearly useless in PvP. Only for some gimmick fights requested by the raid leader would a Ret pick this up. For Prot it isn't bad but still very situational. Since Holy is cleansing dots and paying attention to who has them, a Holy Paladin can make better use of this talent.

And yes I'm aware 5.2 gives it a 10% damage reduction in addition to Hand of Purities current abilities, but it's still a bad choice for Ret over Clemency. Being able to use freedom twice in PvP is extremely useful. For Prot at least this becomes another defensive cool down.
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90 Human Paladin
14125


I'll believe you, but I don't really understand why. Not enough damage? Not enough CC? It can't be buffs, and utility, because Rets (and all pallies) bring loads of those.

You're not thinking like a RBG group leader. They want classes that have abilities that scream OP.

Mages -> crowd control and slows up the ying yang
Warriors -> Lots of mindless burst damage and mobility. The mobility is a major factor for why RBGs only want Prot Warriors.
Rogues -> They really only want them for smoke bomb.

The mentality of people running these RBGs is that "bring the class not the player" is a good general rule to go by. RBG leaders don't have time to get to know players, but they know how classes and specs work. Rets don't have Utility that RBG groups want, and anything they do have can be brought by a Holy Paladin.

So unless Rets have absurd burst damage or survivability then RBG leaders aren't interested. They share their utility with Holy, and so they don't even bother looking at a Ret.
Edited by Judgebringer on 12/22/2012 11:44 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
13525

I'll believe you, but I don't really understand why. Not enough damage? Not enough CC? It can't be buffs, and utility, because Rets (and all pallies) bring loads of those.


Jack of all trades, master of none is a recipe for sitting on the bench. Vanilla/BC rets knew this from raiding, and it's the same in rbgs. We do lots of little things that are nice, but nothing game-breaking. PvP is all about the specs that can bring the game-breaking move.

It's the same in raids, really. For example, you'll hear mages complain that they don't have enough utility, but no raid leader in his right mind would build a comp without time warp or heroism. Ret has lots of little goodies but no must-haves.

Plus, there is really nothing a ret brings that holy doesn't, in terms of utility, so if you have a holy pally (and most rbgs do) why bring a ret when a warrior or DK would bring you so much more?

They need to come up with some sort of excellent buff or bonus that ret and prot DON'T share with holy.
Edited by Carmageddon on 12/23/2012 12:47 AM PST
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1 Gnome Priest
0
The internal cooldown for Sacred Shield is what balances it with the other two talents on the tier. It should not go away.

Mandatory glyphs are BAD BAD BAD! If anything the Glyph of Templar's Verdict should lose its damage reduction because it's "mandatory".

I am happy with a lot of the talents. Tier 1 is fine because if you do the math, LAotL is a 22.5% speed increase, whereas you need 1.5 Holy Power to have the same average speed increase with PoJ. My theory is that top players are picking LAotL because they like the burst mobility, and not because the talent is "better". I could be wrong though.

FoJ is overpowered on tier 2 and should be nerfed. Your choices on tier 2 are:
- 6 seconds of extra stun every minute, stun has an extra 10 yards of range
- a castable CC useable 4 times per minute
- a snare
Because Rets don't like to cast, and because their arena partners often have a snare, they overwhelmingly take FoJ. FoJ should be nerfed to 40 seconds, and it should lose the extra range or HoJ should gain the extra 10 yards of range. Then, the choice of what talent to take would become much more interesting.

Most top players are taking Clemency on tier 4. I can see why: it's just so much better than the other two options. Not sure what to suggest here.

Tier 6 needs work. Everyone is taking Holy Prism for PvP. Light's Hammer should be more attractive for PvP, and I would make Execution Sentence burstier and make the duration 6 seconds instead of 10. Holy Prism is not being taken for PvE, I'm not sure why, but PvE is not my forte.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
And one obvious suggestion for 5.2:

Make seal of righteousness useful, or remove it. It is just wierd to leave it as is. It has no use. Literally: I can't think of a single time when using it would have made one iota of difference.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
Also, I think blinding light should be redesigned. Instead of an instant AoE CC, of which there are too many anyway, it should have a one minute cd and instantly remove all disorient/fear effects in the vicinity. That would be perfectly in keeping with paladin lore as warriors who inspire others through our use of the light, would remove one CC, and add a counter to others.
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90 Human Paladin
13525
And finally, make Divine Purpose baseline and give us a different talent. This is just a fun factor suggestion.

I know, I know, in Cataclysm we all complained about too much rng. The thing is, in Cataclysm our holy power production was so low that we needed those procs to perform, so waiting on DP was agonizing. In MoP, it feels like a sweet bonus when it procs, even if using does interfere with a regular holy power generator.

Making it baseline at a 15% proc rate would add the fun RNG (as opposed to Cata's unfun rng) back, make our rotation a bit more interesting, and give us about a 5% dps buff (which would bring us up to around the median; we are currently lagging slightly).
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90 Human Paladin
13525
Mandatory glyphs are BAD BAD BAD! If anything the Glyph of Templar's Verdict should lose its damage reduction because it's "mandatory".


Ret only has two meaningful glyph choices. If they gave us more options, it wouldn't be mandatory. That's on Blizzard. But taking away the damage reduction (which is small potatoes compared to what warriors and dks get baked right in, anyway) would be a significant nerf.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
I'll believe you, but I don't really understand why. Not enough damage? Not enough CC? It can't be buffs, and utility, because Rets (and all pallies) bring loads of those.

Well, Ret does look weak on the damage meters against something like a Frost DK, and warrior burst is currently better than Ret burst, but the main problem is Ret doesn't bring the right kind of utility. Holy Paladins already bring hand spells and other classes bring much better snares. Ret doesn't have anything like Death Grip or Smoke Bomb, or CC like a caster.

I don't expect Ret to ever be ideal for RBG's, but it'd be nice if Blizzard put a little work into it.

12/22/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Magnara
Maybe increase it to 100%.

Speed of Light is bad for Ret because of its cooldown. However big the speed boost, it still won't be as good as the constant mobility of Long Arm. And SoL is dispellable.

The cooldown could just be made lower for Prot and Ret, but honestly I think SoL should be completely different for these specs. Priests and druids for example have talents with different effects based on spec.

12/22/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Magnara
I think being able to be used during a stun would be enough.

Asking for Divine Protection to break stuns was like asking for a Christmas present. I'm not sure it's strictly needed, but on the other hand I don't think it'd suddenly make Ret overpowered -- Freedom used to break stuns every 25 sec, after all. I'll admit that in part my desire for this change is based on QoL.

I think you forget that pallies have Divine Shield, Emancipate, HoF, HoP, and cleanse. Each of those can mitigate CC's in some regard.

Divine Shield is a 5 min defensive CD. HoP causes Forbearance which locks out Divine Shield. Emancipate and HoF counter snares and roots (soft CC). Sac is decent but finicky. When I play my Ret in MoP, I feel like I'm always sitting in CC. I think this is less the case for other damage-dealers.

because they sacrifice the defensive capabilities that a paladin has. whether or not those defensive skills are strong enough is another matter.

I wasn't asking for more offensive capabilities, but pointing out that not only do other damage-dealers have better CC breaks, they also avoid more CC simply through the nature of their design.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
The whole purpose for the cool down was because players were taking advantage of it. They could revert it back if they could prevent this better.

Their solution was pretty silly. Why not make it so the shield itself has an internal CD? That way even if the buff is reapplied, a new shield won't pop up until the full 6 sec has elapsed. Ret needs a Sacred Shield it can rely on in PvP.

Repentance can be good for Ret if Blizzard removed it's need to cast. Casting is an open invitation to lock Ret out of spells. Again a talent made for Holy Paladins. Getting interrupted is the name of the game for Holy, but not for Ret. Holy Paladins will be anticipating being interrupted, but Rets won't be.

You know what I'd like to see?

-Make HoJ a 40 sec CD for Prot and Ret (1 min for Holy).
-Replace Fist of Justice with Blinding Light.
-If Holy chooses BL, it has a 1.5 sec cast-time and a 1 min CD. If Prot or Ret chooses it, instant and 1 min 30 sec CD.
-Leave Repentance as is for Holy, but for Prot and Ret make it instant on a 45 sec CD.
-Add Glyph of Repentance which changes the Prot/Ret version to the Holy version. This is so these specs will still have access to low CD CC for challenge modes. In PvE, the cast-time isn't an issue.

The result of all these changes is Holy loses part of its super long CC chain. It has to choose between Repentance and Blinding Light. Ret gets a weaker version of FoJ at the baseline and can then choose between instant ranged CC and instant AoE CC.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Mandatory glyphs are BAD BAD BAD! If anything the Glyph of Templar's Verdict should lose its damage reduction because it's "mandatory".

It's better to have a mandatory glyph than to remove it and hurt Ret's viability. Perhaps at some later date the seal system can be redesigned to work more like stances, and then Ret would have some passive survivability.

12/23/2012 12:48 AMPosted by Wowthinker
I am happy with a lot of the talents. Tier 1 is fine because if you do the math, LAotL is a 22.5% speed increase, whereas you need 1.5 Holy Power to have the same average speed increase with PoJ. My theory is that top players are picking LAotL because they like the burst mobility, and not because the talent is "better". I could be wrong though.

It's not because they prefer burst mobility, but because it's better in PvP. Also it's not always possible to store excess holy power to fuel PoJ. Long Arm is the clear winner in tier 15 for Ret PvP and that's poor design.
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90 Human Paladin
14125

Most top players are taking Clemency on tier 4. I can see why: it's just so much better than the other two options. Not sure what to suggest here.

Nothing here could fix these talents without overhauling them entirely. Sanctified Wrath is nearly useless in PvP and PvE. Lowering the cool down on bubble won't help you in PvE, and you won't get Divine Shield back in time for Arena. Marginally useful in RBGs since you can bubble more then once and lay on hands for the duration of a RBG. Even then though, Rets rarely get brought for RBGs.

Hand of Purities ability to lower dot damage is just absurd. When are you going to pop it, and will it make a difference? That's like developers ran out of ideas and just come out with that.


Tier 6 needs work. Everyone is taking Holy Prism for PvP. Light's Hammer should be more attractive for PvP, and I would make Execution Sentence burstier and make the duration 6 seconds instead of 10. Holy Prism is not being taken for PvE, I'm not sure why, but PvE is not my forte.

Because when you use Avenging Wrath + Holy Avenger + Execution Sentence you get more damage then using Holy Prism every 20 seconds.
Edited by Judgebringer on 12/23/2012 4:17 PM PST
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A BM pet, without CDs, nullifies ret self-healing. Since Blizzard's interested in nerfing everything except damage, we should get a healing buff to compensate or some other form of survivability. It's the worst feeling in the world out-playing a hunter's disengages with LoS, HoF, and such only to die to a pet because our self-healing is sub-par. It's the ineffective state of our healing which needs to be addressed the most.

Our healing wasn't game-breaking prior to the PvP Power nerf and the change to battle fatigue. I'd like to see it returned to those numbers, or fairly close to them. Ret survives damage at the moment by avoiding it through CDs or kiting and lining. If we could recover from the initial damage taken during that process, I really think we'd be fine for personal survivability. We simply cannot recover from damage when it's consistently applied. It doesn't matter if it's with burst or without burst, we just die. If not instantly, then over time because our healing is really that bad.

A 15% healing increase to WoG would require your changes to sacred shield in order to be noticable. However, if we take sacred shield, we'd be missing Selfless Healer, and it's more important for helping team-mates than a dispellable shield which would absorb ~18k.

Sacred shield would need to be baseline without the immediate CD on its shield to be a viable utility for ret right now. The state of damage trumps our self-healing regardless of what we do, and the state of healing our allies majorly depends on Selfless Healer.

These changes would make me happy:

-A buff to Sword of Light by ~30-40%. (It probably sounds absurd, but that would nullify the changes to PvP Power and a little of Battle Fatigue.)
-Sacred Shield included with Sword of Light.
-Sacred Shield's shield effect activates when used. 6 second CD.

Those changes probably won't happen, but I'd have 0 complaints in 3v3 if this were the case. 0. Especially with the recent patch notes.

As for RBGs? We'd need a key ability like Smoke Bomb, Death Grip, or something like that on top of decent damage. Our sustained isn't good, we lack something to weaken our enemies (necrotics, mortal strike, excessive stuns, etc), and our group support/cc is easily supplied by a holy paladin.

Even if we had some form of death grip, smoke bomb, whatever-- we'd also need competitive sustained. There is no single ability or buff that would make us more demanded for RBGs. We'd need to be a better package.
Edited by Deoradhan on 12/24/2012 7:27 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
14350
Sacred Shield's 5 sec delay needs to be removed. Not only is it just ridiculous, it essentially leaves Retribution with Selfless Healer as the only talent choice in that tier. Selfless Healer is good no doubt, but the whole point of the talents trees was in giving us a choice, and as Retribution we currently don't have one. Revamp SS to remove the 5 sec delay, and we will have that choice again.

TV needs a damage boost of about 10% as it's been overneutered from fears that increased Holy Power generation and Haste benefits would make it too powerful at the start of MoP. Right now it barely differentiates itself from Crusader Strike half the time:(

Divine Purpose really needs to be removed as a talent and reimplemented as a Ret-only tool for a very important reason: by taking Zealotry (aka Holy Avenger) AND Divine Purpose from Ret and making them talents, the developers have left the spec with zero baseline burst potential when Holy and Protection sacrifice nothing to benefit from our abilities.

By making us choose either HA or DP, we essentially only get half our burst back and it's showing in areas like PvP and Rated BGs where a big part of why we are never picked has to do with our terrible sustained burst and overreliance on CD burst which can be easily countered via CC.

Remove Divine Purpose, give it back to Retribution, and give the class a proper talent choice in it's place that doesn't doubly penalize the Retribution spec and leaves the others untouched.

Finally, Paladins in general NEED a Fear break mechanic. Our class is exceptionally vulnerable to this form of CC and it's only gotten worse in MoP with the greater abundance of Fear abilities. This is also a big reason people don't want Ret in Rated BGs, far too easy to control because the CD on Divine Shield is usually 5x greater than that of a Fear.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14350
And yeah, our Glyph choices are horrible.

And Symbiosis is still giving Retribution Wrath, the hell am I supposed to do with that? Give us something we can actually use...
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90 Human Paladin
20590
Remove Pursuit of Justice
Add 10% base speed boost
Move Burden of Guilt to where Pursuit of Justice used to be
Make a new talent for tier2, probably a disarm or something
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