Suggestions for Ret PvP (5.2)

90 Human Paladin
14125
12/24/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Andarin
Sacred Shield's 5 sec delay needs to be removed. Not only is it just ridiculous, it essentially leaves Retribution with Selfless Healer as the only talent choice in that tier. Selfless Healer is good no doubt, but the whole point of the talents trees was in giving us a choice, and as Retribution we currently don't have one. Revamp SS to remove the 5 sec delay, and we will have that choice again.

The reason why Selfless healer is the best choice is because the others don't make much sense in PvP.

Sacred Shield - Not a bad ability but it won't save you. For my Ret it absorbs 13k worth of damage every 6 seconds in PvP gear. About 19k in PvE gear. Which isn't so great when you consider how much damage players are putting out today. Also consider that it's spell steal able and purge able, which makes this not worth it.

Eternal Flame - Will be getting a nice buff in 5.2, but again the hot doesn't tick for very much. Might become competitive in 5.2 with Sacred Shield, but does cost precious Holy Power. But again can be removed and stolen, which negates the talent entirely.

The reason why Selfless Healer is the best choice is that it regenerates procs quickly, which helps protect against important buffs. Also when you heal team mates it heals for a decent amount. It can be a game changer in PvP.


Finally, Paladins in general NEED a Fear break mechanic. Our class is exceptionally vulnerable to this form of CC and it's only gotten worse in MoP with the greater abundance of Fear abilities. This is also a big reason people don't want Ret in Rated BGs, far too easy to control because the CD on Divine Shield is usually 5x greater than that of a Fear.

This I agree with, and should be integrated with Hand of Purity instead of a 10% damage reduction. But it should only work on Paladins themselves, cause if it could work on other team mates then they would simply bring a Holy and forget about the Ret.

And Symbiosis is still giving Retribution Wrath, the hell am I supposed to do with that? Give us something we can actually use...

I have no idea why the developers decided to give Ret Wrath. Best guess is that they simply weren't thinking, or didn't care. I don't even bother with symbiosis and just forgot this exists in the game.

Would rather have Barkskin like Protection gets, which would at least improve Rets survivability.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Does resil still double dip against our mastery? Ret damage seems a little low, but I don't think it's a primary problem. One thing that bothers me is Guardian of Ancient Kings. While I approve of it being more worthy of the 5 min CD than it was in Cata, I'd rather it just didn't exist so our sustained could be higher.

Fears are annoying, but can be dispelled or Tremor'd. Stuns are more problematic because Ret doesn't have Defensive Stance or Second Wind -- it relies on Freedom kiting and active healing to stay afloat. I want to be able to play 3's without zerging the healer, to draw out matches through skillful play.

Sword of Light needs a buff because the second global nerf to heals was too big a hit to both our survivability and utility. It'd be amazing if Divine Protection broke stuns for Ret (and not for Holy), but I'm not holding my breath. I'd at least like to see buffs to passive defenses such as as the removal of Sacred Shield's initial internal CD or a buff to Glyph of Templar's Verdict (again, it's already mandatory).
Edited by Hafleur on 12/24/2012 11:11 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15610
12/23/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Judgebringer
Sanctified Wrath is nearly useless in PvP and PvE.


Honestly stopped reading your posts after this, seeing as how SW is the highest dps talent in PvE.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Remove Pursuit of Justice
Add 10% base speed boost
Move Burden of Guilt to where Pursuit of Justice used to be
Make a new talent for tier2, probably a disarm or somethin

Who would take BoG over Long Arm? Teammates can snare. Our baseline snare isn't bad. When would a ranged snare trump a gap-closer?

I always liked the idea of Blinding Light being being on tier 30. One, it's the CC tier. Two, for some reason BL has always felt to me like an optional spell. Three, I think Holy's CC chain is too long.

I'm not sure whether or not I like the idea of a disarm, but it's interesting. There are a lot of interesting ways to improve the paladin talent tree and I'm gonna make another post on this when I wake up tomorrow. :D
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Btw, how's playing with a Mistweaver working out for you, Rune? I always liked warrior/Ret.
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90 Human Paladin
20580
Burden of Guilt on the first tier opens up new comps with casters. Warlocks and Priests love snares on their team.

Also reduce the cooldown and duration of Speed of Light.

Anyone have ideas about how to make Ret viable in RBGs?
Edited by Tonìc on 12/25/2012 12:46 AM PST
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90 Draenei Paladin
14220
RBGs are the most obvious reason to buff Retribution; I vehemently disagree with the developers conclusions that our spec is 'just about perfect', particularly when players openly specify they do not want Ret Paladins on their BG team.

Retribution needs several noticeable changes to make it a viable contender in this department, firstly:

1. Better damage/consistent non-CD burst- As mentioned earlier, Retribution is far too CD/RNG dependent to deal meaningful burst, with TV in particular hitting for rather meager amounts. TV needs a buff of perhaps 10% and Divine Purpose really should be removed as a talent and made a Ret-only tool to give the spec back the baseline burst potential it had in Cataclysm and is currently lacking.

2. Better healing- The nerfs to all healing hurt Retribution in particular as our already iffy surviveability has been nerfed so low we cannot even outheal pet damage anymore. Buff Sword of Light and allow WoG to heal more.

3. Dedicated Fear Break- One of the primary reasons that Retribution is continually excluded from RBGs aside from lack of burst is the extreme ease in which they can be controlled via CC, especially Fears, which allows much of their burst to be avoided. This used to be merely an irritation, but Fears have become so commonplace and easy to use that Retribution has become too easy to counter when you have access to one. Implement something like Shield of Faith or something that breaks Fears and renders the Paladin immune to them for a duration on a 2-3 min CD.

4. Differentiate Offensively- Retribution needs to be able to offer something different from Holy besides just damage as Holy offers the same group utility as a Ret and thus significantly lowers their appeal in comparison. What about adding something like a utility strike like Seraphim Strike which could increase the CD of abilities or reduce Haste levels? Something that could add pressure.

Bottom line, Retribution is far from perfect if we remain undesireable in this department and others. Our spec deserves the chance to experience RBGs like others instead of only being taken along out of pity or rolling Holy.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
Merry Christmas, fellow Rets and other friendly residents of the DDF!

4. Differentiate Offensively- Retribution needs to be able to offer something different from Holy besides just damage as Holy offers the same group utility as a Ret and thus significantly lowers their appeal in comparison. What about adding something like a utility strike like Seraphim Strike which could increase the CD of abilities or reduce Haste levels? Something that could add pressure.

I agree Ret needs something groups can point to and say we want that, something Holy doesn't have access to. However I don't know if it's reasonable to expect this sort of addition mid-expansion. The funny thing is Hand of Purity and Devotion Aura woulda been amazing last season with all the wizards and DoT cleaves, perhaps good enough to not mind a second set from a Ret.

Another problem I see is Repentance and Blinding Light are very fragile CC. Compare these to Cyclone or glyphed Poly, to Ring of Frost or Psychic Scream, to all the CC not screwed by a bit of cleave or a stray DoT.

What if Repentance was a baseline Ret specialization spell and there was a glyph which caused it to clear DoT's? I doubt RBG teams would suddenly fall over one other to play with us, but this would differentiate Ret from Holy (and Holy really doesn't need three CC's on separate DR's).
Edited by Hafleur on 12/25/2012 12:36 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
20580
They could tweak Blinding Light like this:

Holy: 2 second cast
Retribution: 1min cooldown, 4 second stun

Remove the glyph entirely.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17150
How to Fix Ret Paladins:

Fix our Mastery in PvP.

Buff our self healing, SS should be undispellable for ret paladins, SH should heal 20% more on yourself, and Eternal Flame Hot should be buffed overall.

Glyph of Templar Verdict should last 10 seconds instead of 6, you can hardly notice the defense proc because we spend most of the time kiting and healing ourselves/our partners.

Add a baseline disarm reduction so we can use Dancing Steel enchant baseline.

Make a Bringer of Justice glyph or baseline for ret (New ability): When you're at or below 35% Health, Healing Recieved is increased by 15-20%.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14220
12/25/2012 12:24 PMPosted by Hafleur
However I don't know if it's reasonable to expect this sort of addition mid-expansion.


No more unreasonable than WW Monks for example getting an entire new ability and utility like Deadly Reach made baseline. Retribution needs similarly drastic work if it is ever going to be regarded as more than a joke in RBGs.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
They could tweak Blinding Light like this:

Holy: 2 second cast
Retribution: 1min cooldown, 4 second stun

Remove the glyph entirely.

This'd be beneficial to Ret, and I like the idea of Blinding Light's mechanics being based on spec, but does PvP need another AoE stun? I'm already tired of Shockwave, Cap Totem, and Leg Sweep.

12/25/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Faeria
Glyph of Templar Verdict should last 10 seconds instead of 6, you can hardly notice the defense proc because we spend most of the time kiting and healing ourselves/our partners.

Eight sec would feel perfect to me. Should increase the duration of Glyph of WoG as well.

12/25/2012 02:20 PMPosted by Faeria
baseline for ret (New ability): When you're at or below 35% Health, Healing Recieved is increased by 15-20%.

Reminiscent of Cata Sacred Shield's secondary effect. I'm a big fan of increased healing taken.

12/25/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Andarin
No more unreasonable than WW Monks for example getting an entire new ability and utility like Deadly Reach made baseline. Retribution needs similarly drastic work if it is ever going to be regarded as more than a joke in RBGs.

I do expect more drastic changes to Windwalkers because brand new classes need special attention, and I think calling Ret a joke is a little dramatic. But I suppose we've never seen eye to eye on this. :P
Edited by Hafleur on 12/25/2012 5:36 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
So, problem talents.

Speed of Light is weak for everyone but Holy. Ret PvP could use a talent that's as powerful an out as Long Arm is for constant mobility. I suppose SoL's CD and duration could be based on spec, say 30 sec/6 sec for non-Holy paladins, but for it to be competitive it'd also need to be undispellable. And Blizzard won't make the same spell work differently against dispels because it's confusing to players of other classes.

Why not make SoL truly based on spec, similar to Incarnation and Force of Nature? Holy keeps the original while Prot and Ret get a ~30 sec CD like Displacer Beast, Wild Charge, Intervene/Safeguard, Heroic Leap, defensive Shadowstep, Transcendence, etc -- an out I can choose if I know a 3's team is going to blow all their cooldowns and zerg me from start to finish (not uncommon nowadays). As for BG's, wouldn't it be something if each Ret was free to choose how to play without penalizing himself?
Edited by Hafleur on 12/28/2012 10:27 AM PST
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90 Human Paladin
8445
a "Last word" like mechanic might work for Retribution, where in our WoG's and perhaps FoLs have a greater crit chance or heal for more when we are down to 35% health
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11655
this is just a minor gripe but showcases just how tacked on most retribution design is

could the druid symbiosis be changed from something stupid like wrath to something usable like sunfire
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
I did some napkin math on the Eternal Glory buff. I included crit chance, haste, and the 30% PvP healing reduction. In 5.2, self-cast EG will heal for a little over half a percent of my health per second. When Mortal Strike is present, a little under half a percent. So let's just say half a percent per sec.

That seems undertuned to me. Recuperate, which is pretty weak in MoP, heals for more; Recup is also undispellable. I think the devs need to turn the Sword of Light knob until each of Ret's heals feels right.

this is just a minor gripe but showcases just how tacked on most retribution design is

could the druid symbiosis be changed from something stupid like wrath to something usable like sunfire

A lot of what other classes get is PvP utility like Dash, Solar Beam, Healing Touch, or a defensive cooldown for rogues (that is not how Growl works for druids). Personally I think Ret should have gotten something like instant Entangling Roots (Chains of Justice, baby) on a 20-30 sec CD.

What bothers me more than Wrath, though, is what we give to Resto Druids: fucking disease dispel. I give my favorite healer disease dispel. Meanwhile from DK's they get IBF, from mages Ice Block, etc. Ret/R. Druid has got to be the worst Symbiosis in the game.

It's not game-breaking because they can just bond with someone else, but it's kinda lame.
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90 Draenei Paladin
14220
Personally, stuff like Retribution getting Wrath from Symbiosis and abilities like Blinding Light as our 87 ability make me feel like alot of our development was less a 'Hmm, now what should we implement that would be beneficial and fun for this spec' and more of a 'Oh s***, I've got a deadline due on Retribution and I haven't looked at them yet! Better pull something out my rear quick!'

But I digress. Regardless, I feel we really need to keep pushing this RBG issue since the developers have made this area of play more mandatory for Conquest and because Retribution is so noticeably excluded because of poor performance. This shouldn't be ok or acceptable simply because Holy can do well or because a few scant Ret Paladins managing to get in a RBG somehow means everyone can succeed. We shouldn't have to roll Holy to have any real chance at getting in a RBG and succeeding.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11915
I don't quite understand why they put a delay on SS activating instead of just putting a CD on the ability itself.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9115
12/26/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Elidra
I don't quite understand why they put a delay on SS activating instead of just putting a CD on the ability itself.

Back in WotLK, Sacred Shield had zero cooldown. It might be fine in PvE to increase the CD from 6 sec to 10-30, but in PvP that'd make it trivially countered by dispels.

As far as I understand, the reason they added the delay was refreshing SS in the middle of its duration refreshed the shield. Why not just make it so only one shield will activate every 6 sec regardless of whether SS is refreshed or switched to a new ally?
Edited by Hafleur on 12/26/2012 2:02 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
5110
I really think that the drawbacks from Divine Shield and Hand of Protection should be revised. I mean, they were necessary back in TBC/WoTLK when we had Avenging Wrath bursting 50% more damage on top of an already relatively good damage, but come on. Every class now has some sort of Divine Shield-like ability, and most of them doesnt have such drawbacks (or the ones that already existed and had drawbacks, like Deterrence, got buffed). I really dont understand why DS keep cutting our, already weak, damage by half, or how HoP still makes ret useless.

And I am not even considering the fact that back in TBC we could burn all our mana with Holy Light to heal us ~70% of our max life, while now we couldnt heal that even if we use everything we could (4x FoL - with Sellfless Healer, 2x 3-HP WoG, Holy Prism, glyphed AW). DS is only useful if there is a healer nearby, HoP is only useful if you use it on someone else - a healer mainly, OR if you are Holy, since the drawbacks of using those skills would have virtually no effect. And on top of that, 5min CD while generating Forberance for 1min.

I really think our spec its lost in time. That Blizzard still thinks that the rules from TBC/WotLK are valid for rpally.
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