You ever have that awkward moment

90 Orc Shaman
11830
12/28/2012 10:02 PMPosted by Maziko
Disc priest couldn't top people up in the spirit world. ...not sure what that's about.

Priests have the easiest time with the Spirit Realm - SPAM Binding Heal. If he's losing people in the Spirit Realm, he's either trying to conserve mana while inside (which is the exact opposite of the fight mechanic) or just relying on the wrong spells (PW:S or GH, most likely).
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90 Pandaren Monk
6610
12/28/2012 10:12 PMPosted by Mahanik
Priests have the easiest time with the Spirit Realm - SPAM Binding Heal. If he's losing people in the Spirit Realm, he's either trying to conserve mana while inside (which is the exact opposite of the fight mechanic) or just relying on the wrong spells (PW:S or GH, most likely).


O. Well, this is interesting. I don't know what he was doing, to be honest, just that he and the dps died down there so we removed him for the rotation (So it was just me and the Shaman going down) but tomorrow we're dropping a healer (probably me) so this is great information. We were discussing benching him/bringing in a pally for the fight but I guess we can just give it a go with him using binding heal.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15380
First off for yourself Maz:

Chi wave works much better than chi burst in 10 mans for most if not all fights.
And healing brews is cool and all, but diffuse magic is quite a potent and quick c/d for magic spike aoe damage.

Otherwise looking good.

I took a peak at the shaman and priest... am I seeing them correctly? The shaman has 4.5-5k spirit? thats not even a decent minimum amount to go into a raid to heal. 6.5-k7k min should be the first starting point, and thats a low min.

This includes, enchants, gems, reforging for, and using at least 1 spirit trinket. (Proc or stationary)

Secondly, unless you break down spell choice (wow logs) we cannot give advice on how they heal, only what their gear looks like.

But yes... they both need plenty more spirit. And make sure everything is enchanted/gemmed and that they understand the basics of their class.

Because from 3rd boss on, all fights in MSV should be 2 healed.

(-Gara to beat enrage, plus with totems no need for a 3rd healer
-Spirit kings, damage is pretty low you should be able to 2 heal it or the healers need to up their game
-Elegon, 2 heal again for dps beating enrage for first kills
-Will of Emp, again 2 heal as only real damage is tank damage and need as much dps as you can)
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90 Pandaren Monk
6610
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1tix5rh6aoth62xl/sum/healingDone/?s=263&e=796

So this is the Feng kill. It took a few attempts. >_>

Chi wave works much better than chi burst in 10 mans for most if not all fights.
And healing brews is cool and all, but diffuse magic is quite a potent and quick c/d for magic spike aoe damage.


I do get a lot out of Chi Burst (melee heavy, so I stand slightly behind the ranged and target the boss or one of the tanks for CB) But I can try out CW tomorrow, I do like to try out everything. I had some fun with ZS last week but in the end I wasn't sure it was worth it. I will try diffuse magic, since I haven't given it a shot at all. :)

12/28/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Ashkongfu
The shaman has 4.5-5k spirit?


Udoo was dps was this week, so he may have been in Ele gear by the time you saw. Enicus is what you see tho. I'm gonna start churning out enchants for them (and some of our dps. I never realized how many people hadn't even sprung for windsong until I took a long look at folks this evening) tonight. I think I'm going dps for Garj tomorrow which should be interesting.
Edited by Maziko on 12/28/2012 10:48 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
6590
Your priest should be able to get everyone up even without using binding heal... I spam flash heal on myself 3 times, usually getting a crit. if no crit, 4 times, then 4 and 4 for each dps. i can get the buff up to about 10 stacks on each dps and give myself unlimited regen for about 30 secs with about 7-10 secs to spare. It wasn't much harder when i was at his gear level.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6440
12/28/2012 10:55 PMPosted by Keirisonis
Your priest should be able to get everyone up even without using binding heal... I spam flash heal on myself 3 times, usually getting a crit. if no crit, 4 times, then 4 and 4 for each dps. i can get the buff up to about 10 stacks on each dps and give myself unlimited regen for about 30 secs with about 7-10 secs to spare. It wasn't much harder when i was at his gear level.


Like I said, I legit have no idea what was going on down there. Just that the priest and the two dps in the Spirit World ate dirt, which is a problem. We assumed he was having issues because he was disc and just removed him from the rotation. Now however I'm not so sure what was up. I am starting to think I'm a bad healer leader, because I don't actually know what's going on.

Like I see he has almost no Spirit Shell usage and this seems wrong, but I'm not totally sure so I don't say anything until I have chance to look it up and just...blech.

Err. I'm Mazkio, of course. Random shaman switchage.
Edited by Yumako on 12/28/2012 11:36 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Monk
8360
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1tix5rh6aoth62xl/sum/healingDone/?s=263&e=796

So this is the Feng kill. It took a few attempts. >_>

Chi wave works much better than chi burst in 10 mans for most if not all fights.
And healing brews is cool and all, but diffuse magic is quite a potent and quick c/d for magic spike aoe damage.


I do get a lot out of Chi Burst (melee heavy, so I stand slightly behind the ranged and target the boss or one of the tanks for CB) But I can try out CW tomorrow, I do like to try out everything. I had some fun with ZS last week but in the end I wasn't sure it was worth it. I will try diffuse magic, since I haven't given it a shot at all. :)

12/28/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Ashkongfu
The shaman has 4.5-5k spirit?


Udoo was dps was this week, so he may have been in Ele gear by the time you saw. Enicus is what you see tho. I'm gonna start churning out enchants for them (and some of our dps. I never realized how many people hadn't even sprung for windsong until I took a long look at folks this evening) tonight. I think I'm going dps for Garj tomorrow which should be interesting.

I think what we're all trying to say is monks are not the right way to go if you want to do any progression.
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90 Gnome Priest
12440
12/28/2012 11:39 PMPosted by Imgandiloljk
I think what we're all trying to say is monks are not the right way to go if you want to do any progression.

Spec imbalances aren't going to be an issue for normal mode progression. Pretty much any issue in normal mode can be overcome by just playing better.
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I think you're the only one saying that, Gandi.

On topic: Disco is tricky to play. Now, Discipline priests can cheese the Voodoo mechanic and make it easy-mode, but they have to be playing right.

A disc priest on Gara'jal should
Normal realm: Spam absorbs. PW:S on the Voodoos, spam POH, use Inner Focus, use Spirit Shell, Cascade, as long as he's putting absorbs on the Voodoo people. Optionally, also stack Evangelism.
Spirit realm: Spam heals. Make sure to heal yourself as well. Use Binding Heal (heals both the target and yourself), Flash Heal, Archangel if you've got it available. Optionally, smack some of the shadowy mobs if the DPS are being derps.

It can be challenging to switch between the two modes. I mean, that's what a competent priest has to do, but it can be challenging. Make sure he understands the fight mechanics.
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90 Draenei Priest
6975
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1tix5rh6aoth62xl/sum/healingDone/?s=263&e=796

So this is the Feng kill. It took a few attempts. >_>


Your priest isn't using Spirit Shell nearly enough (once out of a possible 8 times) and he's very likely using it incorrectly for this fight (it looks like he's using it to GH tanks?). This is a high raid damage fight so he should be spamming SS PoH before high-damage phases (Draw Flame and Arcane Velocity). If your tanks are handling Epicenter correctly, he can and probably should SS GH them between Epicenters.

He has no Atonement healing done on a fight with plenty of low-damage periods. He didn't use Inner Focus at all, nor did he use Power Infusion despite speccing into it. He has no healing done with Cascade (I'd use Divine Star on this fight anyway).

I'd drop FDCL for Mindbender. His glyphs are...bizarre (Renew glyph is crap for Disc, PW:S glyph is arguably a PVP or Holy glyph and I believe is a HPS loss for Disc). He's casting Renew way too much when Atonement does better and faster (smart) healing.

I personally feel that his PW:S overheal is a bit high (he's basically wasting 20% of the mana cost before Rapture). Note that this is after the glyph, which means he's trying to use PW:S to soak insignificant amounts of damage.

I'd personally swap all gems for spirit gems (or spirit hybrids). With his low level of spirit he really shouldn't be reforging to haste since it's the only mana-negative throughput stat that Disc has (ideally he'd be doing something like spirit > mastery > crit > haste).

e: Really, and no offense to you, Maziko, he should be completely crushing you on a fight like this. There's a lot of stuff he needs to work on.

One of my logs for comparison (it's a different boss but it's another high raid burst fight and I don't have Feng healing logs on this character):

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-r3xr8q8690r9r8q8/details/3/?s=6415&e=6843

(And yes I am aware that SS was underutilized in this log)
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 12/29/2012 12:54 AM PST
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General healing / gear advise is given plenty already in this thread and is also easy to find guides for. Maybe it would help if they read up on the bossfights and healing specific strategies? I know icy-veins.com has healing guides for each fight for example, or they can ask for advise on their class-forum.

It's very kind of you to tell your raidleader that you want to work with these healers instead of just replacing them. My advise would be to be honest and open about the situation. Explain to them that they are underperforming (low output, wrong spell choice, inadequate mana management) and ask for their suggestions on how to improve. Give them a fair chance to improve and maybe even an ultimatum.

In my experience it's always better to treat people as adults, even if they are kids... Point them in the right direction and help them find the right resources, but trust on their capability to figure things out themselves. By making them responsible for their own performance, they will improve as a player. That doesn't mean they cannot turn to fellow guildies for advise, but they should be the ones asking for it.

Good luck :-)
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1tix5rh6aoth62xl/sum/healingDone/?s=263&e=796

So this is the Feng kill. It took a few attempts. >_>


The Priest is.... really, really bad... at everything. There is just no other way to put it. I'm not trying to be mean but the logs and armory speak for themselves.

He has 5 un-enchanted items and no belt buckle based on the armory linked. Fixing that would be an excellent starting point. His gemming is off. Unless you've reached the point where you can start using Int flask/food there is no reason not to prioritize spirit when gemming a healer. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's not able to do this yet with his current spirit/gear level. Even his reforging seems like it has had zero thought put into it.

In terms of the logs.... He's not using his cool-downs at all. I wish I could say he needs to fix X and Y but the reality is he needs to fix everything. He's doing literally nothing properly. The only advice I can give is to tell him to read up on his spec, his abilities and put in the effort to learn how to do things properly. Outside of this you either have to suck it up or try to replace him. Honestly, I would replace him. I don't know that a player can recover from the mistakes he is making and improve much.
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90 Worgen Druid
6550
I'll let someone else discuss the shaman. I'm here to critique the priest.

First of all, for your comp, disc is a better choice. Absorbs work well with 2 reactive healers and since you don't have a paladin, he'd be the one to provide that.

However, I know that a lot of priests refuse to go disc or suck at it so I'll give ou some pointers for him if he stays holy.

First of all, he should be in chakra serenity and abusing the ability to roll renews. It is insanely cheap and very high throughput.

Second, he should have at least 10k spirit. It'll give him a bit more room to be agressive with his healing. Some may say to run lower, but i wouldn't suggest it if he's underperforming as much as you say. Have him prioritize mastery, then the haste breakpoint. Master for holy is free healing in the form of a hot, which is extremely useful.

He shouldn't be using flash heal much at all, as generally HW: serenity is fast enough and hits hard enough to get someone out of emergency situations.

Have him spec into cascade and use it to refresh renews (it refreshes it on any target with renew up in serenity chakra.)


This made a me giggle a little. He's like 15 item level below you who only make 10k spirit by using a passive spirit trinket.

Anyways the priests gemming could use work. He should use 80int/160 spirit gems instead of 160 int gems and he definately needs to replace his meta gem with the 432 spirit gem. He should work on getting spirit pieces for all his gear and not just reforging toward spirit. He is missing out on a lot of spirit.

Looks like the priest is missing chest, wrist, weapon, off-hand, gloves, and boot enchants as well as the extra belt socket.

It would help to know more about how your fellow healers heal. Do they use mouseover macros with standard raid frames, clique, or an add-on like vuhdo/healbot?

Priest could drop Glyph of PW:S since it doesn't do much good and renew isn't very useful for disc. He'd be better off picking up smite and holy fire glyphs and getting used to setting up some atonement heals to activate archangel. Most priests bind inner focus to greater heal, flash heal, and prayer of healing so that it always gets used as soon as it's off cooldown. As disc he should be trying to track rapture to make sure he gets the mana back every time.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/1tix5rh6aoth62xl/sum/healingDone/?s=263&e=796


Seems like he's doing a lot of single target and not nearly enough Prayer of healing usage. I don't see cascade on there at all and he got practically nothing out of spirit shell. He's probably using renew too much because he is used to holy or something.
Edited by Stratis on 12/29/2012 4:40 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12545
12/29/2012 04:18 AMPosted by Volios
I don't know that a player can recover from the mistakes he is making and improve much.


This, in and of itself, is not true.

Ignorance can be fixed. This player is worth investing the time for improvement.

Laziness and/or poor attitude cannot be fixed. This player is not worth investing the time for improvement.

I think it's important to find out which type of player (s)he is before making a final decision, but that's just my opinion.

At least you know the RL is behind you, should it be the axe.

Riôt
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90 Pandaren Priest
12725
This, in and of itself, is not true.

Ignorance can be fixed. This player is worth investing the time for improvement.

Laziness and/or poor attitude cannot be fixed. This player is not worth investing the time for improvement.

I think it's important to find out which type of player (s)he is before making a final decision, but that's just my opinion.


I'd agree. I just think most of his problems stem from the latter of the two and not the former. I refuse to believe he can be that ignorant.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
11430
12/29/2012 04:40 AMPosted by Riôt
I don't know that a player can recover from the mistakes he is making and improve much.


This, in and of itself, is not true.

Ignorance can be fixed. This player is worth investing the time for improvement.

Laziness and/or poor attitude cannot be fixed. This player is not worth investing the time for improvement.

I think it's important to find out which type of player (s)he is before making a final decision, but that's just my opinion.

At least you know the RL is behind you, should it be the axe.

Riôt


Regarding the priest, ungemmed and enchanted items speak of laziness/poor attitude to me, unless the items are ones that are very likely to be replaced quickly and the gems/enchants are costly. Skipping a belt buckle and a boot enchant might be acceptable (he should really do sha for better boots). However, skipping 200 spirit (literally ~5g on my server), windsong, mastery enchant on bracer, and a glove enchant are not large gold investments and are fairly useful.

I also consider it laziness to not at least figure out what your most efficient/effective abilities are, as well as stat priorities (granted, there can be some debate about what stats are actually best, but at least making an informed decision is better than running blind). That is to say, there should be some level of responsibility expected of a person to make themselves not COMPLETELY ignorant. 15 renews, 19 gheals, 22 flash heals, as disc.

It's one thing to not be familiar with watching timers for spirit shell, not knowing that glyph of pw:s is bad, or not being prepared for a progression fight they weren't expecting to see (not much of an excuse for normal modes either, at this point in the expansion with the advent of LFR). It's another thing to show up and expect to be carried, which is pretty much what it looks like is happening here.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
12/28/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Maziko
We are three healing (Monk, Shaman, Priest) which should sail us through at least the first few encounters but instead we wipe endlessly.


What is your shaman's MAIN spec/role in your raid? His armory suggests he favors elemental based on gem and reforge choices. It's no wonder he has a difficult time healing. Your raid group and your shaman need to collectively discuss and decide on a definitive role for him.

If you need him to heal full time, he needs to do his research. I am no shaman expert, but at his gear level, hitting a high haste break point won't do much for him. Stat weights will vary depending on what he is healing. Mastery is great for tanking healing, mastery to 50% and then going for crit is great for raid healing. Regardless, his spirit is really low. He should swap his meta for the spirit one... trade out the haste gems for spirit hybrids.
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90 Draenei Priest
13065
12/29/2012 04:36 AMPosted by Stratis
This made a me giggle a little. He's like 15 item level below you who only make 10k spirit by using a passive spirit trinket.


And yet if he changes out his haste gems for Artful Gems, swaps out the meta for a spirit meta, and gets the Barrel from H Brewery he will be at 10k spirit with a spirit flask and spirit food.
Edited by Tiesha on 12/29/2012 7:22 AM PST
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90 Draenei Priest
6975


Regarding the priest, ungemmed and enchanted items speak of laziness/poor attitude to me, unless the items are ones that are very likely to be replaced quickly and the gems/enchants are costly. Skipping a belt buckle and a boot enchant might be acceptable (he should really do sha for better boots). However, skipping 200 spirit (literally ~5g on my server), windsong, mastery enchant on bracer, and a glove enchant are not large gold investments and are fairly useful.

I also consider it laziness to not at least figure out what your most efficient/effective abilities are, as well as stat priorities (granted, there can be some debate about what stats are actually best, but at least making an informed decision is better than running blind). That is to say, there should be some level of responsibility expected of a person to make themselves not COMPLETELY ignorant. 15 renews, 19 gheals, 22 flash heals, as disc.

It's one thing to not be familiar with watching timers for spirit shell, not knowing that glyph of pw:s is bad, or not being prepared for a progression fight they weren't expecting to see (not much of an excuse for normal modes either, at this point in the expansion with the advent of LFR). It's another thing to show up and expect to be carried, which is pretty much what it looks like is happening here.


If we're being fair, his FH count is inflated due to FDCL, but it's still not a good (or at least not great) talent for Disc and he'd very likely be better served with Mindbender, especially on a fight with high raid damage.

Now, Garajal or Will, maybe. But even that's sort of a stretch.

e: Something I also missed last night: Since he wasn't atonement healing at all, he was never able to use Archangel. 25% bonus healing on a 30 second cooldown is really, really good, and even if he completely ignores IF and PI (he shouldn't), he should at least be using AA.

Some tips for Garajal:
Keep PW:S on the tank at all time
PW:S Voodoo Dolls (the tank's PW:S won't soak Shadowy Attacks but PW:S can still soak the resulting Voodoo damage)
Early in the fight, use SS to GH tank/voodoo dolls while they have weakened soul
Spam Binding Heal in the spirit world to top people off/quickly generate buff stacks (remember that topping people off is the priority here)
Later in the fight (during Enrage) use SS PoH to reduce damage from adds
Edited by Dysrhythmia on 12/29/2012 1:22 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
12500
Ignore the fact that I'm a Mistweaver; I was a raiding Disc priest pre-MoP, and I am the hand-holder/spoon-feeder to our current Disc priest who used to be a resto druid. I still raid on my own Disc priest with another guild's alt run, as well.

To those who've joined the conversation since the end of the first page - keep in mind this priest was Holy until incredibly recently. He's going to be absolutely *lost* - spell-usage-wise and, more importantly, conceptually. His gear's not going to be set up properly for Disc (since it wasn't set up properly for Holy either >.>)

There's excellent gear advice above, and critique of what he's doing *wrong*. There's also some good info as to what he should do instead, but I just want to be sure to consolidate it all into one post for easy reference. Remember that our OP, while an incredibly helpful person and excellent team player, doesn't know priests and the info won't just file itself in his/her head 2 items from one post, 3 from another, one from a post farther down the page... and then present iteself in coherent and useful fashion when s/he is talking to the priest.

I'm going to start with the very, very basic minimums because I'm going to assume *ignorance* not laziness on the priest's part; it is indeed possible to be this clueless if you've never been a part of an organized raid before and simply don't realize everything that goes into building a successful team... and that that begins with *you*.

#1 - Ask if s/he has DBM (turned out our resto druid didn't have it until we were working on H Spine in DS. Yeah, it was later on, in the 25% nerf region, so no it wasn't like we're talking 0% H Spine with no DBM... but... yeah).

#2 - Describe to him/her how incredibly powerful Disc is with Spirit Shell, Archangel, and Power Word: Barrier. Initially, don't try to stress any other points to improve on (spell-usage-wise, I mean). Focus on those three, or s/he will become overwhelmed, imo. Considering the type of player the armory & logs point to.

#3 - Explain how Disc doesn't excel at "filling up green health bars" - Disc excells at "making sure the green health bars never drain in the first place". It's less true now than it was in Cata, because of the improvements Blizz made to Archangel (... so... we're not so awful as we used to be at filling up the green health bars)... but that concept is *crucial* to get through a new Disc priest's head, especially if they cut their teeth healing as Holy priest or resto druid. Tell him/her that Spirit Shell is an incredible, OP tool to prevent health bars from draining.

#4 - Explain that most big damage mechanics are timed and predictable. This is where they need to get familiar with DBM. They can go into the DBM interface and filter out all sorts of timers which are not crucial for him/her, so s/he can *focus* on the big important ones s/he should be timing his/her use of Spirit Shell with. I mean, it's not necessary to filter stuff out of DBM, but let's just assume they're going to have difficulty keeping track of multiple timers and unfamiliar cooldowns which are to be used in a completely different way than anything they've ever done while healing before.

#5 - Ideally, the priest will learn when to Holy Fire, when to Smite, and when to use Penance offensively, to stack and maintain Evangelism so that they can use Archangel at a moment's notice, and also, *eventually*, to add extra dps to the fight where possible. At first, all you should stress is that the priest should NEVER have Holy Fire sitting off cooldown. Holy Fire should be glyphed for Disc so that it's instant, so that it's a no-brainer to punch that button every time it comes off cooldown. HF has a 10 sec cooldown; Evangelism stacks have a 20sec duration before they fall off if not refreshed. If your goal is to use HF on cooldown, you will *never* have your Evangelism stacks fall off (thus losing access to Archangel), even if you're a few seconds late on actually using it.

#6 - When is the right time to use Archangel? Often :) I won't say on cooldown, although that's probably better than using it too infrequently... If you really push building Evangelism stacks (ie, adding an offensive Penance and Smites to your HF), you can have it available every 30sec. 18 sec of 25% extra healing, as often as every 30 sec? Yes please, sign me up, and get that priest using HF on cooldown! In reality, you'd spend so much of your current Archangel time "priming" for your next Archangel that it's not usually what we shoot for (using Archangel on cooldown); after all, we've popped Archangel because we want 25% more healing, right? Presumably we have to actually use *heals* while Archangel is active, not spend time Smiting. As a general rule.

(con't cuz I'm long-winded...)
Edited by Meditation on 12/29/2012 3:17 PM PST
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