Ice lance spam

90 Human Warrior
10675
12/29/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Lhivera
Isn't it fun when pvp specs get ruined because of pve?


Happily, there's no such thing as a "PvP spec." What was happening was a spec's PvE capabilities had long been ruined because of PvP. That problem has now been corrected, and we may all rejoice.
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You know a ton more about the game, and specifically mages than I do, nevertheless, I have to disagree with you.

Because frost now has more control than it ever has had in the history of the game, and that's why it's a very strong pvp spec (yes, obviously, you've lost freezes, however, everyone now has an 8 second cd on defensive dispells, which is a massive boost to your control in pvp).

It seems to me that frost, while actually MORE powerful in it's control than ever before, is now being considered NOT "the pvp" spec, which means you have crazy control AND you have excellent burst AND you have great sustained dps.

As someone who has "mobility" (lol), and great burst, but HORRIBLE sustained dps - that kind of bugs me. Though, I'll be fair and say I've flat out given up on pvp, so much so that I have not set foot in so much as bg. At this point, for me, it's all about pve, which is why I'm kind of bummed that arms is so crap - but I digress.
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90 Troll Mage
14120
12/29/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
p.s. go level another mage 'cause I don't think you have enough


Didn't you just post the other day about discredting the argument, and not Lhivera's playtime? :p
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Happily, there's no such thing as a "PvP spec."


That must be why you see so many protection paladins in battlegrounds.


The existence of specs that do not function well in PvP in no way implies a design intent that some specs should only function in PvP. The former is a problem that should be fixed (with the understanding that it may be a difficult problem). The latter is a problem that, in the case of Frost, has been fixed (which was a difficult problem and took a very, very long time).
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90 Goblin Warlock
7555

That must be why you see so many protection paladins in battlegrounds.

I'm still really sad Blizzard reversed their position on making all specs workable in PvP. Prot PvP in Wrath was fun as hell.

Wrong thread for that tho.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
12/29/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Williame
Because frost now has more control than it ever has had in the history of the game


Um.

CoC root gone.

3 freeze DRs condensed into 1 freeze DR.

Frost armor's freeze gone.

DF duration down from 5 to 4 seconds.

Imp CS soon to be gone (could be classified as control)

Counterspell's lockout duration keeps getting shaved down.

I'm probably missing some things.

Suffice to say, you're definitely wrong.

And while the cooldown on dispels may help counteract some of those losses, there is no way you can reasonably conclude that frost mages have *more* control than they've ever had, and that's before you take into consideration all of the additional anti-kiting tools melee received in MoP (which you have to do if you are going to bring the dispel cooldown into the argument)
Edited by Kaikou on 12/29/2012 5:32 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
The 5.2 change to Freeze will also reduce control a bit; if the target is immune to roots due to DR, Freeze will no longer be able to generate an FOF charge, which could otherwise be used for a Deep Freeze.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435

10-15k. Ele can cast while moving, and they get procs that make their casts instant as well.

Mages are using a *lot* more than just ice lance to do the damage you seem to be claiming they're doing.

And finally, I would love to go back to a model where my roots actually stick long enough to let me cast, but that style of PvP is dead, and your genre of class (melee) is what killed it.


Shamans have spiritwalker baseline that is a 2min cd and dispellable. Lightning bolt sucks and the glyph sucks because it has a cast time penalty so no one takes it. Yes lava burst can proc and a lot of time that's the only thing you can do IF you get them. Proc chance is not that high with just one flame shock.

They are not doing a lot more. They cast nova/pet freeze then deep freeze (instant). Frost orb (instant). A whole lot of ice lance (instant). Then what? Blink and Ice Barrier? Lol.

If deep freeze sticks usually they do cast a frostbolt then some ice lances. Granted this fight I had a trinket up so the mage went ice lance instead. What is wrong is that ice lance was more then enough to still kill me fast.

I can kill rets on my ele. It's not easy. Nothing is easy as ele (or ret for that matter), but it's doable and I don't have to use spiritwalker either. In order to kill as ele, you have to get at least one elemental blast and a lava burst off. Meaning you HAVE to cast something.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
So when you say:

...literally ice lance spam you to death. That's it. Only ice lance spam.


...what you really mean is, "Ice Lance plus four other spells that allow Ice Lance to do damage, and sometimes Frostbolt."
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7435
So when you say:

...literally ice lance spam you to death. That's it. Only ice lance spam.


...what you really mean is, "Ice Lance plus four other spells that allow Ice Lance to do damage, and sometimes Frostbolt."
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Frost nova/pet freeze
Deep Freeze
Frost Orb
Ice lance

Nova and deep freeze isn't much of a spell. They are instant and don't do damage or that much. Frost Orb does do damage, but also instant. The main damage spell is obviously ice lance here and that's why it's literally ice lance spam.

Oh I forgot. Pet autoattacks. That's fire and forget. Big whoop.

You know how people always ask for a good beginner class? Frost mage is clearly the answer.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
Happily, there's no such thing as a "PvP spec." What was happening was a spec's PvE capabilities had long been ruined because of PvP. That problem has now been corrected, and we may all rejoice.
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There is no such thing as PVP spec? Then why are Arms Warrior absolutely terrible in PvE and amazing in PvP? The problem is not corrected, frost was just made a special snowflake.
Edited by Faust on 12/29/2012 6:39 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
12/29/2012 06:26 PMPosted by Faust
There is no such think as PVP spec? Then why are Arms Warrior absolutely terrible in PvE and amazing in PvP? The problem is not corrected, frost was just made a special snowflake.


You're confusing current status with intent. If a spec were deliberately being designed to be good in PvP without regard for performance in PvE, you could fairly say it's intended to be a PvP spec. But this is not the case for Arms (or any spec). They're all intended to perform well in PvE -- and GC has acknowledge that Arms may well be too low. It's not a PvP spec -- it's just a spec that isn't performing well in PvE and needs some work.
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85 Gnome Rogue
14860
Ice lance spam isn't a viable damage/kill strat without Frozen Orb and decent RNG.

If you avoid the frozen orb (freedom away) so you don't feed the mage endless FoF procs, this wouldn't have happened.

Mage damage is some of the most predictable if you understand how the class functions and the cooldowns.

TL;DR: You could have avoided this if you were aware of the mechanics and played better.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
Well, blizzard still stubbornly and stupidly refuses to make more separate rules for pvp and pve, and their game is not where it could be because of it.

12/29/2012 06:31 PMPosted by Lhivera
You're confusing current status with intent.


The problem is that blizzard doesn't care enough to change this. People think that way for a reason.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
12/29/2012 06:07 PMPosted by Positron
You know how people always ask for a good beginner class? Frost mage is clearly the answer.


Actually, playing melee is easily the best way to go to learn the game since it's easier to do well with them.

GO AWAY SARM

<3
Edited by Swampdonkeys on 12/29/2012 6:36 PM PST
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90 Human Warrior
11020
You're confusing current status with intent. If a spec were deliberately being designed to be good in PvP without regard for performance in PvE, you could fairly say it's intended to be a PvP spec. But this is not the case for Arms (or any spec). They're all intended to perform well in PvE -- and GC has acknowledge that Arms may well be too low. It's not a PvP spec -- it's just a spec that isn't performing well in PvE and needs some work.
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There's a huge problem when you create incredibly idealistic visions for your game and then are only able to partially succeed in those efforts for certain classes.
Edited by Faust on 12/29/2012 7:08 PM PST
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
12/29/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Faust
There's a huge problem when you create incredibly idealistic visions for your game and then are only able to partially succeed in those efforts for certain classes.


I don't think it's reasonable to expect complete success simultaneously for every spec. The fact that they have not yet fully succeeded with any given spec doesn't mean they aren't still working on it and won't improve things in the future. If it did, I might as well have stopped playing when Sunwell came out and Frost's serious PvE problems began; instead, I waited (and took a couple of breaks), provided lots of feedback, and over several years and many iterations, things improved. There's no reason you can't expect the same for other specs.
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90 Gnome Priest
12440
12/29/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Faust
There's a huge problem when you create incredibly idealistic visions for your game and then are only able to partially succeed in those efforts for certain classes.

This actually happens in pretty much any game you play. It's rare that you'll find a game that accomplishes exactly what it set out to achieve.
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90 Human Warrior
11020
I don't think it's reasonable to expect complete success simultaneously for every spec. The fact that they have not yet fully succeeded with any given spec doesn't mean they aren't still working on it and won't improve things in the future. If it did, I might as well have stopped playing when Sunwell came out and Frost's serious PvE problems began; instead, I waited (and took a couple of breaks), provided lots of feedback, and over several years and many iterations, things improved. There's no reason you can't expect the same for other specs.
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So it's reasonable to expect that we have to provide feedback for several years in order to get glaring problems addressed. That's an awesome response time. Maybe if they didn't totally redesign every class every xpac, they would improve over time. But when you start from scratch every few years, it's pretty much a coin toss whether your spec is going to be held back by PvP this xpac and tbh it's getting old.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
12/29/2012 07:24 PMPosted by Faust
So it's reasonable to expect that we have to provide feedback for several years in order to get glaring problems addressed.


Believe me, I'd much rather Frost's PvE problems had been fixed immediately when they became apparent at level 70, instead of waiting for level 90 (and a brief period early at level 85). But ultimately, I could either froth and rage about it, or relax and make the best I could of the situation as long as I was satisfied that they were making moves in the right direction. Ultimately, it's just a game -- and if you can't find ways to enjoy it when there are parts that don't work for you, you're probably better off doing something else rather than spending your time angry.

The dev team lead has explicitly stated that Arms PvE is something they're looking at. Now it's up to you to decide if you can enjoy the game while you wait for improvements. And you have the advantage of knowing that they're much more willing to make rapid hotfixes and patch-by-patch balance changes today than they were a few years ago.
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90 Gnome Mage
13620
This is so ridiculous that a frost mage can literally ice lance spam you to death. That's it. Only ice lance spam.

I just faced some ridiculous frost mage who went red so he popped a trinket since that's all they have. Even though I trinketed deep, I still would have died in seconds if it weren't for loh. I managed to get a couple more heals after that, but I still died because the damage was insane.

Not a single frostbolt. I literally do not think the mage casted anything at all. Just ice lance! And yet this mage was at least twice my damage output on this ret.

I faced one other mage recently that did this too. That time he didn't even deep freeze. Just a frost orb, pet attacks and again ice lance spam. Yet sadly it's a tough fight due to ice barrier, blink and even a frost nova because that means we still have to spend a gcd to remove it.

Why in the world is such a cheap, spammable spell do this must damage? It should have a small cd. If that were the case arcane barrage and earth shock should be spammable.


You stood full duration in his frozen orb knowing he just popped a bunch of cd's

The first thing you did was "click" LoH

The second thing you did was come and QQ

You should ask your parents for an old nintendo and play Duckhunt

Its easier to spot where you go wrong in that game.

EDIT: ^ Joke still stand BUT

Apologies didn't read the other posts where you actually figured out what you did wrong

But just don't stand in bad stuff

Orb is 1 min cd stay out of it not only does it proc FoF sometimes it also does a crapload of damage

Practice popping divine protection when you see casters popping offensives if desperate pop it with aura mastery for even more mitigation
Edited by Illwai on 12/29/2012 7:57 PM PST
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