Ice lance spam

90 Human Warrior
11020
Believe me, I'd much rather Frost's PvE problems had been fixed immediately when they became apparent at level 70, instead of waiting for level 90 (and a brief period early at level 85). But ultimately, I could either froth and rage about it, or relax and make the best I could of the situation as long as I was satisfied that they were making moves in the right direction. Ultimately, it's just a game -- and if you can't find ways to enjoy it when there are parts that don't work for you, you're probably better off doing something else rather than spending your time angry.

The dev team lead has explicitly stated that Arms PvE is something they're looking at. Now it's up to you to decide if you can enjoy the game while you wait for improvements. And you have the advantage of knowing that they're much more willing to make rapid hotfixes and patch-by-patch balance changes today than they were a few years ago.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium


You don't find is slightly suspicious that they fail to balance these "PvP specs" again and again and again over the years while "PvE specs" like Fury are almost never bad? They totally redesign specs every expansion and yet they can never get it right? Why is Fury always bad in PvP and good in PvE and why is Arms always the opposite (with some small exceptions). Just coincidence? Forgive me if I am skeptical.
Edited by Faust on 12/29/2012 7:54 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
9155
An important note: frost's great (decent is probably a better word, I like it - but I could understand why some would rather keep their specs arcane / fire) sustained DPS in PvE is not directly translated into PvP.

Frostbolt should make up a large portion of your damage outside ridiculous AoE affairs like Sha of Anger (a place where Frost PvE excels) and as we've already discussed - frostbolt isn't really worth it in PvP. You run the risk of locking out a large portion of your offense, defense and CC if you get caught in a cast, and the damage doesn't justify that risk.

Zerging a mage is still a pretty effective way to halt a lot of their damage. They'll get some roots off, and get some damage lancing the freezes - but they can't really stand and take the damage and getting them to burn their otherwise offensive freezes in a defensive manner should shut them down a bit.

Edit: I don't want what I say to come off as a "don't nerf me bro!" I play frost exclusively in PvE these days, and love the spec. I don't want to see it gutted for PvP changes, and thankfully the recent mage nerfs have mostly left PvE unaffected. I'd prefer to keep it that way.
Edited by Solution on 12/29/2012 8:03 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495


You stood full duration in his frozen orb knowing he just popped a bunch of cd's

The first thing you did was "click" LoH

The second thing you did was come and QQ

You should ask your parents for an old nintendo and play Duckhunt

Its easier to spot where you go wrong in that game.


What bunch of cds does a frost mage have?

Yes I had to loh because the damage was absolutely nuts. By the time I trinket the deep then cast freedom, in just those 2 gcds I was well under half and still going. It also takes a little bit of time to get out of range even with freedom.

If the mage had silenced me it would have been over, but the mage didn't for some reason. That's the only reason why I had time to loh and heal a bit afterwards by losing. If bubble was up and I used that instead it would been over even faster because I can't heal that much in a short period.

Yeah you know it's not like I just stood there the whole time.
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90 Human Mage
16840
12/29/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Positron
I could try running the heck away from the orb next time I guess.

/thread
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90 Orc Hunter
5805
Blizzard has admitted Mages are to good in PvP, why they are starting to see bigger changes come 5.2. Mages and green text can argue but Blizzard has spoken on the issue.

Yes Mages, especially frost is over the top, that's Blizzards stand too.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Blizzard has admitted Mages are to good in PvP, why they are starting to see bigger changes come 5.2. Mages and green text can argue but Blizzard has spoken on the issue.

Yes Mages, especially frost is over the top, that's Blizzards stand too.


Pretty much this. Time to get balanced* mages.

*nerfed to the ground in overreaction like Rets
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
An important note: frost's great (decent is probably a better word, I like it - but I could understand why some would rather keep their specs arcane / fire) sustained DPS in PvE is not directly translated into PvP.

Frostbolt should make up a large portion of your damage outside ridiculous AoE affairs like Sha of Anger (a place where Frost PvE excels) and as we've already discussed - frostbolt isn't really worth it in PvP. You run the risk of locking out a large portion of your offense, defense and CC if you get caught in a cast, and the damage doesn't justify that risk.

Zerging a mage is still a pretty effective way to halt a lot of their damage. They'll get some roots off, and get some damage lancing the freezes - but they can't really stand and take the damage and getting them to burn their otherwise offensive freezes in a defensive manner should shut them down a bit.

Edit: I don't want what I say to come off as a "don't nerf me bro!" I play frost exclusively in PvE these days, and love the spec. I don't want to see it gutted for PvP changes, and thankfully the recent mage nerfs have mostly left PvE unaffected. I'd prefer to keep it that way.


Arcane is technically worse off because it would lock them out of blink and counterspell.

Yeah I understand in a team/arena setting you can afford to do something like train the mage. Not so 1v1ish or a larger setting like bg where you might not be able train so easily. Spriests have a channel and elemental blast is all schools so I don't really get the argument here. Then everyone argues locks should never be able to cast a chaos bolt right? That's a 3 sec cast!

Sure buff frostbolt then if it's really that bad, but you should have to cast SOMETHING. All I can say is cry me a river after all that I go through to get a kill on my ele.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
12/29/2012 10:00 PMPosted by Ningos
Blizzard has admitted Mages are to good in PvP, why they are starting to see bigger changes come 5.2. Mages and green text can argue but Blizzard has spoken on the issue.


Did I give you the impression I was opposed to the 5.2 changes?
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
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90 Human Rogue
14200
Ice lance should have a diminishing power tied to it, more you spam it before DR timer is up, the less damage it does, its idiotic really, Casters need to go back to "casting".

I also have a very large distaste for running and casting abilities, What happened to skill cap ranged classes?
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90 Blood Elf Mage
12725
mysides/10

1. Every paladin in this thread is talking about 1v1 situations with a hard counter.
2. Every paladin in this thread is speaking like they don't have bubbles, trinkets and cleanses.
3. You'll get no sympathy from anyone. Mages get owned by Hunters, Paladins get owned by mages. Boo hoo.
4. We have to OOM HPaladins or they don't die, and if they're really good, there is nothing we can do. We pay for our ability to kill Ret paladins in frost with our tendency to not kill ret paladins in Arcane and Fire. Don't wanna be killed by frost mages? Switch spec to Holy.
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90 Gnome Mage
13620
12/29/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Positron
What bunch of cds does a frost mage have?


Big blue frozen orb coming at you ... just because its not fire doesn't mean you should stand in it

Trinkets make people go red

Alter time can double existing procs

12/29/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Positron
Yes I had to loh because the damage was absolutely nuts


So now you know what the burst looks like .. next time pop Divine protection so you can mitigate a bunch of magic damage right before he deeps you.

12/29/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Positron
If the mage had silenced me it would have been over, but the mage didn't for some reaso


Aura mastery and it wouldn't have been over

What i am getting is that you popped 1 cd (LoH) during his cd's

ANY class that has no cd's fighting ANY other class with full cd's will probably lose
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7495
12/30/2012 10:37 PMPosted by Illwai
What bunch of cds does a frost mage have?


Big blue frozen orb coming at you ... just because its not fire doesn't mean you should stand in it

Trinkets make people go red

Alter time can double existing procs

Yes I had to loh because the damage was absolutely nuts


So now you know what the burst looks like .. next time pop Divine protection so you can mitigate a bunch of magic damage right before he deeps you.

If the mage had silenced me it would have been over, but the mage didn't for some reaso


Aura mastery and it wouldn't have been over

What i am getting is that you popped 1 cd (LoH) during his cd's

ANY class that has no cd's fighting ANY other class with full cd's will probably lose


Frozen orb isn't really a cd akin to wings since it's only 1 min and neither is a trinket. A trinket is a trinket. Alter time perhaps, but I'm not sure if that was used.

It's pretty damn hard to anticipate using divine protection before deep because of how fast it can be done and personally I have it glyphed making it 20%, but I always use this skill.

Devotion aura is 30% with a 3 min cd. When astral shift doesn't save my ele, what makes you think this will even if I had it up?

A mage can easily follow a deep with silence and not giving you a chance at all after it breaks.

So you're telling me I have to pop every single cd including a major cd like Devotion Aura AND Loh just to counter a trinket and orb?

Are you serious?
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90 Gnome Mage
13950
Blizzard has admitted Mages are to good in PvP, why they are starting to see bigger changes come 5.2. Mages and green text can argue but Blizzard has spoken on the issue.

Yes Mages, especially frost is over the top, that's Blizzards stand too.


You wouldn't know balanced if it hit you in the face with a truck
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90 Gnome Mage
13950
Ice lance should have a diminishing power tied to it, more you spam it before DR timer is up, the less damage it does, its idiotic really, Casters need to go back to "casting".

I also have a very large distaste for running and casting abilities, What happened to skill cap ranged classes?


Rofl! Stuipd suggestion
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90 Goblin Mage
STL
7960
1. Do pally have any big damage attacks that require a 1.6 or higher cast time?

2. Blizzards design of the class forces us to use ice lance while you are frozen to burn off damage fast. You know a mage is a dps class. You as paladin have 3 mixed classes in there.

3. If they guy would have cast frost bolt at you would you even have let him get off 2 casts of that with out a stun or what ever you have?

4. Frost bolt damage is not that great.

5. Mage will look to burn you down fast. Why? Because you can heal yourself with healing spells in any spec you carry. We do not want you to have time to heal yourself.

6. Do you not have a shield or something that makes you immune to everything and you can heal up?

7. If you want to be a high dps character roll a mage, rogue, warlock? or animal tamer. These classes are only dps for all 3 specs. You are a jack of all trades character, so you will be the master of none.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
7310
12/29/2012 03:39 PMPosted by Githany
I wish I had Wog, or LoH, or freedom, we all have tools at our disposal, learn to use them and learn to counter the others imo.


1) WoG heals for nothing and uses up the only resource a Ret Paladin has to do moderate damage.

2) Lay on Hands is a 10 minute crutch cooldown that cannot be used in Arenas.

3) Blessing of Freedom can be spell stolen and dispelled, and only lasts for 6 seconds.

4) Ret Paladins have been widely acknowledged by the community to be in a poor place right now, despite what GoatseCrawler believes (though we aren't as bad off as Rogues or Monks).


WoG heals for 25kish which is nothing for the amount of time it takes to get one and the global we use to use it.

LoH should be useable in arena's. It's the same as Void Swap in terms of Healing but doesnt provite the negative health that Void Swap does, how ever it does provide a forbearance so no bubble or BoP's can be used on the LoH'd target.

Long Arm of the Law (Talent) should provide and undispelable buff that either removes all snare's and roots and/ or grants immunity to snare and roots. Atleast to snare's because our gap closing ability which is that talent is the worst of all melee.

And rogue's and monk's are getting HUGE buffs this next patch, ret paladins arent even mentioned...
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90 Goblin Death Knight
8155
I think that would be touching on one of my biggest problems with PvP today; the dominance of instant-cast spells for damage, CC and even healing.

It has gotten to the point where having to use a spell with an actual cast time is seem as some sort of affront or major insult to the caster.
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90 Human Warrior
7085
Dear Ret,

What is happening is the following,
Mages casts Pet nova ( FOF + 1)
-At same time mage casts frost orb ( FOF +1)

If mage has casted Frost bomb then once it goes off he has Brainfreeze proc.
At this point for maximum burst, mage will use trinkets ( go red) & pop Alter time.

This now allows him to cast all instant casts, ( icelance x2 & frostfire bolt.) Once alter time goes off either after 6 sec or on demand he gets all of his buffs and status back.

This means that after he has just used 3-4 global instant casts, he has them all up again (FOF x2 & Brainfreeze) and DMG trinket is reset to 20 sec duration. Welcome to mage burst ;-).

-Freezo
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90 Human Warrior
12770
12/29/2012 08:55 AMPosted by Raw
ice lance hits for 3-4k if the target isn't frozen and ice lance isn't proc'd.

Because the target is rarely frozen and you rarely have procs that make it so the target is not frozen and does not take additional damage. Even still I'm not complaining as frost mage damage has always been high. However they should value crit but thankfully because of talents and Blizzard's favoritism they believe other classes should favor stats that frost mages never have to worry about.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
4560
You know a ton more about the game, and specifically mages than I do, nevertheless, I have to disagree with you.

Because frost now has more control than it ever has had in the history of the game, and that's why it's a very strong pvp spec (yes, obviously, you've lost freezes, however, everyone now has an 8 second cd on defensive dispells, which is a massive boost to your control in pvp).

This is just plainly not true. Our effective control is lower than it's ever been. Melee uptime is the measure of our effective control, and it is higher than it has ever been at any point, including level 60.

Mages don't kite in competitive PvP anymore, we tank. Go watch high rated Mage streams against melee comps and you'll see how wrong you are.
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